How many vaulted characters have you champed?

Milk Jugz

Beer40 said:

Milk Jugz said:

@Fightmastermpq
@Spidurman27

I'm pretty solidly into 4* land myself, sitting on 23 champs and in the next 2 days will have Medusa done. I was lucky when vaulting happened in that I had most of the tier fully covered already. Only MM @5/3/4, SG and WS @2/5/5, MK and WM @3/3/5, and KB @4/2/3. Everyone else vaulted is fully covered, and I've been champing both latest 12 and vaulted as I see fit.

Most of my problem with vaulting is for people like wumpushunter, he has a fairly young roster and now will miss out on various required events because he doesn't have the necessary 4* character and there is virtually no path to get said character. I've said this before somewhere in the forums, I think the best solution for everybody would be a weekly boosted vault. Put the boosted 3* and 4* in there, possibly even the boosted 2* and people can target it if they want what's in the vault. It's not perfect, RNG will still be a factor, but at least it offers options to everybody and everybody likes options. I say again there HAS to be a better way!!!

I'll play along because I think this idea has some merit to at least swing some people more to the neutral side of for/against vaulting. So here's my questions: How big is this vault? And what else is inside? The reason I ask is because if people spend resources in hopes of counteracting vaulting (specifically in the way you mention) I think there would be an even bigger outcry against it if they, more often than not, didn't get the required characters they need. 

I'd say just the characters on the current weeks boost list, update the vault weekly. You would be targeting 10-12 (5 4*, 5 3*, and 2 2*) characters depending on if the 2* are in there or not. I get it will upset some people, like I said it's not perfect because RNG will still be a factor, but I agree that it would do more to stfile the outrage of vaulting than HfH did.....

Fightmastermpq

Milk Jugz said:

@Fightmastermpq
@Spidurman27

I'm pretty solidly into 4* land myself, sitting on 23 champs and in the next 2 days will have Medusa done. I was lucky when vaulting happened in that I had most of the tier fully covered already. Only MM @5/3/4, SG and WS @2/5/5, MK and WM @3/3/5, and KB @4/2/3. Everyone else vaulted is fully covered, and I've been champing both latest 12 and vaulted as I see fit.

Most of my problem with vaulting is for people like wumpushunter, he has a fairly young roster and now will miss out on various required events because he doesn't have the necessary 4* character and there is virtually no path to get said character. I've said this before somewhere in the forums, I think the best solution for everybody would be a weekly boosted vault. Put the boosted 3* and 4* in there, possibly even the boosted 2* and people can target it if they want what's in the vault. It's not perfect, RNG will still be a factor, but at least it offers options to everybody and everybody likes options. I say again there HAS to be a better way!!!

I don't think you are being fair here.  Every essential character is given out as a placement reward the event before they are essential, and as a progression reward during the event where they are required.  And to @Jaedenkaal's point......they weren't likely to pull them from tokens anyway.  Vaulted characters aren't really vaulted, it's still possible to get them when you need them, it's just that making meaningful progress on them has become very difficult.

Wumpushunter

Every essential character is not given out in placement on all CL. Maybe those in CL8 get a 4 star progression but not in 6 or lower.  Or I would be t10 in this pve event and not top 50.

Milk Jugz

Fightmastermpq said:

Milk Jugz said:

@Fightmastermpq
@Spidurman27

I'm pretty solidly into 4* land myself, sitting on 23 champs and in the next 2 days will have Medusa done. I was lucky when vaulting happened in that I had most of the tier fully covered already. Only MM @5/3/4, SG and WS @2/5/5, MK and WM @3/3/5, and KB @4/2/3. Everyone else vaulted is fully covered, and I've been champing both latest 12 and vaulted as I see fit.

Most of my problem with vaulting is for people like wumpushunter, he has a fairly young roster and now will miss out on various required events because he doesn't have the necessary 4* character and there is virtually no path to get said character. I've said this before somewhere in the forums, I think the best solution for everybody would be a weekly boosted vault. Put the boosted 3* and 4* in there, possibly even the boosted 2* and people can target it if they want what's in the vault. It's not perfect, RNG will still be a factor, but at least it offers options to everybody and everybody likes options. I say again there HAS to be a better way!!!

I don't think you are being fair here.  Every essential character is given out as a placement reward the event before they are essential, and as a progression reward during the event where they are required.  And to @Jaedenkaal's point......they weren't likely to pull them from tokens anyway.  Vaulted characters aren't really vaulted, it's still possible to get them when you need them, it's just that making meaningful progress on them has become very difficult.

The essential 4* is given out to the t10 of CL7 & 8 (t1 in CL6), I don't ever make t10!! Only 1% of every bracket gets the essential 4*. That isn't going to happen for MOST people. And the 4* progression cover is only in CL7 & 8, newer rosters are not going to be competing in those CLs, so that cover is out of reach for them also. Yet, I maintain a 3* roster can beat the BB with the required but underleveled, undercovered 4* character. You are not being fair, not everybody competes in CL that reward 4* covers and not everybody places in the t10 of those that do!!!

Fightmastermpq

That's an issue with the SCL reward structure, not vaulting.  Are people transitioning to the 4* tier not in SCL7?  I just saw a screenshot of someone with a softcapped roster at level 119 in T10 SCL8.  If that dude can do it then anyone can.  If you want those coveted 4* covers you have to work for them. 

broll

Jaedenkaal said:

Wumpushunter said:

So we the proud few who had no 4 star Champs before the iron curtain slammed shut can use a new 12 for this next 7 day PVE event instead of vaulted 4 star Blade.   I mean if the most effectivr way to play is ignore the old and focus on the new Demiurge is going to only focus on new ones for DDQ abd PVE right? A few days ago when I could not play the burrito or the clash because both were vaulted characters that was a mistake right? 

Uh... what? If you didn't have Ant-Man or Nova rostered before they were vaulted, you probably still wouldn't have them today even if they hadn't been vaulted. And they certainly wouldn't have been in good enough shape for a Crash.
If it's really important to you, you could use your bonus hero 4* to get 1 cover of all the characters (vaulted or otherwise) that you don't already have.

In any case, I don't think this is really what this thread is about.

Ok let's think about this.  On average I pull down about 13CP a day right now, and I get more than this but let's say 1 LT per 5 days from clash.  It's been over 2 months, but let's use 2 as a nice even number.  2 x 30 = 60 days.  13 X 60 = 780 CP and 60/5 = 12 LTs.  Using CP from classics that's 780/20 = 39 classic pulls and 12 LTs, so 51 pulls total.  0.15 x 51 = 7 (rounded down) of those being 5*.  So 44 4*, which would be a little less than 1 per 4* (if RNG is balances and we all know it's not).  

So let's for argument sake say you would have gotten only 1 cover for each character were it not for vaulting.  (This ignores the more subjective fact that pre-vaulting 4*s from progression were not so heavy on new characters so placement/progression rewards were a better chance also)

If he set 1 of those as BH his chance is 5% so out of 51 pulls he's get 2 BH over that same period (assuming one of them didn't proc as a 5*)

So in this case it would ultimately be a wash on which one is better and either way RNG is the real factor that would determine success or failure in either case.

What would make the old system better is if they added BH without vaulting (or more options on where to spend CP where you could get the vaulted 

Beer40

Milk Jugz said:

Beer40 said:

Milk Jugz said:

@Fightmastermpq
@Spidurman27

I'm pretty solidly into 4* land myself, sitting on 23 champs and in the next 2 days will have Medusa done. I was lucky when vaulting happened in that I had most of the tier fully covered already. Only MM @5/3/4, SG and WS @2/5/5, MK and WM @3/3/5, and KB @4/2/3. Everyone else vaulted is fully covered, and I've been champing both latest 12 and vaulted as I see fit.

Most of my problem with vaulting is for people like wumpushunter, he has a fairly young roster and now will miss out on various required events because he doesn't have the necessary 4* character and there is virtually no path to get said character. I've said this before somewhere in the forums, I think the best solution for everybody would be a weekly boosted vault. Put the boosted 3* and 4* in there, possibly even the boosted 2* and people can target it if they want what's in the vault. It's not perfect, RNG will still be a factor, but at least it offers options to everybody and everybody likes options. I say again there HAS to be a better way!!!

I'll play along because I think this idea has some merit to at least swing some people more to the neutral side of for/against vaulting. So here's my questions: How big is this vault? And what else is inside? The reason I ask is because if people spend resources in hopes of counteracting vaulting (specifically in the way you mention) I think there would be an even bigger outcry against it if they, more often than not, didn't get the required characters they need. 

I'd say just the characters on the current weeks boost list, update the vault weekly. You would be targeting 10-12 (5 4*, 5 3*, and 2 2*) characters depending on if the 2* are in there or not. I get it will upset some people, like I said it's not perfect because RNG will still be a factor, but I agree that it would do more to stfile the outrage of vaulting than HfH did.....

I like the idea but I think MPQ would make it so expensive that it would make HfH seem reasonable. HfH is set at 3600 HP for just 1 4*. If you create a vault that has 5 of them in there then I cant imagine what they'd charge per pull or especially to empty it. It would almost have to be set up in a single pull way, with the first time you pull a 4* the rest are locked, and same with the 3* and 2* maybe. So the hfh pack with less stuff was 2500 HP, we can use that as a baseline. What is a 4* pull worth without that extra stuff in MPQ eyes? 2000 HP? So 1 pull would be 2000 HP and you have a 5/12 chance of getting a 4*? Maybe once you pull a 4* the single pull price goes down also? That would help some, if you pulled a 4* first. 

I like your thought but I think they'd price out most of the people that actually need the vault contents.

Milk Jugz

Fightmastermpq said:

That's an issue with the SCL reward structure, not vaulting.  Are people transitioning to the 4* tier not in SCL7?  I just saw a screenshot of someone with a softcapped roster at level 119 in T10 SCL8.  If that dude can do it then anyone can.  If you want those coveted 4* covers you have to work for them. 

I might be able to work for them but wumpushunter can't, that is my point. There are negative aspects to vaulting!!! That is all I want to get across, you fight for it like it is the end all, be all of perfect solutions. It's not. I don't want them to end vaulting, I want another avenue to those vaulted characters that is not HfH

Milk Jugz

Beer40 said:

Milk Jugz said:

Beer40 said:

Milk Jugz said:

@Fightmastermpq
@Spidurman27

I'm pretty solidly into 4* land myself, sitting on 23 champs and in the next 2 days will have Medusa done. I was lucky when vaulting happened in that I had most of the tier fully covered already. Only MM @5/3/4, SG and WS @2/5/5, MK and WM @3/3/5, and KB @4/2/3. Everyone else vaulted is fully covered, and I've been champing both latest 12 and vaulted as I see fit.

Most of my problem with vaulting is for people like wumpushunter, he has a fairly young roster and now will miss out on various required events because he doesn't have the necessary 4* character and there is virtually no path to get said character. I've said this before somewhere in the forums, I think the best solution for everybody would be a weekly boosted vault. Put the boosted 3* and 4* in there, possibly even the boosted 2* and people can target it if they want what's in the vault. It's not perfect, RNG will still be a factor, but at least it offers options to everybody and everybody likes options. I say again there HAS to be a better way!!!

I'll play along because I think this idea has some merit to at least swing some people more to the neutral side of for/against vaulting. So here's my questions: How big is this vault? And what else is inside? The reason I ask is because if people spend resources in hopes of counteracting vaulting (specifically in the way you mention) I think there would be an even bigger outcry against it if they, more often than not, didn't get the required characters they need. 

I'd say just the characters on the current weeks boost list, update the vault weekly. You would be targeting 10-12 (5 4*, 5 3*, and 2 2*) characters depending on if the 2* are in there or not. I get it will upset some people, like I said it's not perfect because RNG will still be a factor, but I agree that it would do more to stfile the outrage of vaulting than HfH did.....

I like the idea but I think MPQ would make it so expensive that it would make HfH seem reasonable. HfH is set at 3600 HP for just 1 4*. If you create a vault that has 5 of them in there then I cant imagine what they'd charge per pull or especially to empty it. It would almost have to be set up in a single pull way, with the first time you pull a 4* the rest are locked, and same with the 3* and 2* maybe. So the hfh pack with less stuff was 2500 HP, we can use that as a baseline. What is a 4* pull worth without that extra stuff in MPQ eyes? 2000 HP? So 1 pull would be 2000 HP and you have a 5/12 chance of getting a 4*? Maybe once you pull a 4* the single pull price goes down also? That would help some, if you pulled a 4* first. 

I like your thought but I think they'd price out most of the people that actually need the vault contents.

Price would be the caveat on a vault like this, but I was thinking more on terms of cp than hp. Maybe cp would be a bad option if there are 2* in the vault, but if it is between 5 4* and 5 3* I'd spend cp on that, but not as much as a legend vault, IDK, that is for the powers that be to determine......

Also, the price of HfH is determined with no RNG, you are getting exactly what you are paying for. So the price is a little higher, a vault like mine still has RNG and there is no guarantee that every character in it is going to be useful or every cover you pull for a character is going to be useful

Fightmastermpq

Milk Jugz said:

Fightmastermpq said:

That's an issue with the SCL reward structure, not vaulting.  Are people transitioning to the 4* tier not in SCL7?  I just saw a screenshot of someone with a softcapped roster at level 119 in T10 SCL8.  If that dude can do it then anyone can.  If you want those coveted 4* covers you have to work for them. 

I might be able to work for them but wumpushunter can't, that is my point. There are negative aspects to vaulting!!! That is all I want to get across, you fight for it like it is the end all, be all of perfect solutions. It's not. I don't want them to end vaulting, I want another avenue to those vaulted characters that is not HfH

I agree that there are negative aspects to vaulting, but this isn't one of them.  Not everyone is going to be able to compete for T1 spots in SCL8 on day 1.  But I think by the time players are ready to start their 4* transition they are in a spot where they can be earning 4* rewards if they put in the effort.  And if they can't then the reward structure needs to be altered.  I think we are seeing the first signs of this with the new PvE tests with fixed scaling.  Eventually I hope they get it right and scale difficulty and rewards to be something both challenging and meaningful for rosters at all stages of the game.

Beer40

Fightmastermpq said:

Milk Jugz said:

Fightmastermpq said:

That's an issue with the SCL reward structure, not vaulting.  Are people transitioning to the 4* tier not in SCL7?  I just saw a screenshot of someone with a softcapped roster at level 119 in T10 SCL8.  If that dude can do it then anyone can.  If you want those coveted 4* covers you have to work for them. 

I might be able to work for them but wumpushunter can't, that is my point. There are negative aspects to vaulting!!! That is all I want to get across, you fight for it like it is the end all, be all of perfect solutions. It's not. I don't want them to end vaulting, I want another avenue to those vaulted characters that is not HfH

I agree that there are negative aspects to vaulting, but this isn't one of them.  Not everyone is going to be able to compete for T1 spots in SCL8 on day 1.  But I think by the time players are ready to start their 4* transition they are in a spot where they can be earning 4* rewards if they put in the effort.  And if they can't then the reward structure needs to be altered.  I think we are seeing the first signs of this with the new PvE tests with fixed scaling.  Eventually I hope they get it right and scale difficulty and rewards to be something both challenging and meaningful for rosters at all stages of the game.

Its not so much about "effort" as much as ridiculous time management. 5 options for PVE, you must start immediately once the slice opens, clear 4x as quickly as possibly, and then wait 22 hours to clear 3x more. I seriously would like to see a psyche eval on anyone who thinks that is fun. 

Roster strength has a lot to do with who can get to the top, but there's a reason why you see "underpowered" rosters take top spots regularly. Its more about who actually wants to be stuck in that terrible cycle.

Could I take one of those spots? Yes. Do I want to? **** no! I like to play a few matches here and there to get to max progression and then if I want to play a few more I will. I vaguely remember the timer style before this one and I have heard it was worse. I think before revamping rewards they should figure out a way to play at your own pace within 24 hours per node and still be able to compete for a top spot.

Straycat

Fightmastermpq said:

Straycat said:

1)  It's not so much about what @jgomes32 said originally, and while I realize my comment came off as chastising him for what I feel is a poor decision, the broader point is meant for others that read through this thread as they are developing their own roster strategies in the future.  I'm just trying to get anyone that thinks vaulting caused an ISO shortage (a very common mentality on here) to realize that there is no ISO shortage if a more optimal roster strategy is implemented.

2)  OK

3)  This is incredibly misleading and completely misses the point.  First of all your comment of "I prefer more champs total" doesn't support your position at all, as the total number of champed 4s that you have is dependent solely on your ISO earn rate, which is relatively flat with or without vaulting, and with or without optimal strategy.  If anything the nod here goes to champing the newest as the increase in champ rewards provides more resources to fuel more growth.  With regards to rare covers being more valuable.....not in the slightest.  You can't resell those "rare" covers so their value to you is based on what resources they can return.  A newer character that will return champ rewards until they are vaulted is far more valuable than a single champ level on a vaulted character.  Lastly your scenario of expiring covers for vaulted v newest is incredibly short-sighted.  Say you champ the vaulted character - great, you have a 272 that collects dust and you sell 2 covers for the other character.  Now what happens 2 weeks from now?  You have to make the decision again between that same new character and some other character.  2 more covers wasted......and so on and so forth.  If you champ the newest one though 2 weeks from now you get to apply those 2 champ levels and champ another newest character.  Then 2 weeks later you apply those 2 champ rewards to BOTH new characters and champ another new character.....surely you see how quickly these champ levels and rewards start to stack up to the point where you have all 12 new characters champed, and every single 4* cover you pull gets applied as a champ reward and fuels even more growth.  No waste ever......THEN you can go back and champ your Peggy.

Now, I'm not an idiot.  I recognize how good Peggy is.  But she isn't SO good that having her champed over most of the other new 4s is going to make you so much more competitive that you are able to place/progress much better than you could without her.  Obviously this is dependent on your roster and maybe if we are talking about your first couple of 4* champs and your choices are Peggy or some of the tinykitty newer 4s then yeah, Peggy probably does make more sense.  But long term it's far more efficient to get the cycle of having all 12 of the newest 4*s champed as quickly as possible to minimize waste.

1) It did start based on what jgomes said, which I maintain that you misconstrued as the common mentality when maybe it wasn't

2) ok

3) The "more champs total" is based on iso, yes, but, and this might just be my experience, most of my pre vaulted characters already have some iso invested in them, so it takes less time to champ. And I assume that I will champ the latest 12 eventually, but assume some vaulted characters will not get champed.

And sure, I play short sightedly, because the long term is ever expanding. If I know eventually I can reach the point where all latest 12 are champed, and I have 2 covers now for a vaulted character, I think it could be better to champ the vaulted character first.

Again, in my scenario, its 2 latest covers wasted vs 2 vaulted covers wasted. So there is waste either way. For me, since it is harder to get vaulted covers, its harder to sell them. And those 2 champ levels sold of a vaulted character include an LT, and the 2 champ levels in 2 weeks for a latest 12 character might be 2500 iso and 50 hp. Champing peggy afterwards would not get me any champ levels. The no waste ever scenario doesn't account for resupply or 3* champ rewards, which is how I ended up with 2 Miles covers that I didn't want to waste.

I don't think a 272 Miles, getting some use, is collecting dust. Maybe I should have champed Riri (she's ok, just kinda boring) and had her at 290 by now, but I'll get her champed eventually and probably to 280 before she leaves. To me that's a fair trade. Thats where I am as a 4* player. And honestly, having a champed Peggy has been essential for me to hit 2000 in sim. I can win with other teams, but she saves health packs.
This wasn't meant as yet another referendum on vaulting, it was more about going against the math to champ vaulted characters.

jgomes32

Since it all started with that simple, innocent and even joke quote from me, i'd say even if i had every 4/5* champed a double iso would still be nice. Last one was december. Has nothing to do with iso shortage or optimal way to "progress" and i'm sure the community in general would benefit from it.

I honestly can't see most new players staying in mpq for long. Once they see the amount of content and time required they will most likely leave. It's too much to catch up. So i don't agree that there is no iso shortage (even if that wasn't my original pont whatsoever). Maybe there isn't one for us, but in general...I see Iso as the main problem (followed by dilution). I can get 40-50k+ per day as a competitive hybrid player but my guess is most people don't make half of that. 

Back on topic, almost done with Couson, then Fist > C&D > Rocket > Gamora and will finaly go back to some vaulted characters. My guess is early next month i'm done.

Fightmastermpq

Straycat said:

The "more champs total" is based on iso, yes, but, and this might just be my experience, most of my pre vaulted characters already have some iso invested in them, so it takes less time to champ.

Come on. The bulk of the ISO to champ is in the last 20 levels or something. You are talking about a day or two of ISO already invested in most of your 4s. If you do have vaulted 4s at 260+ then yeah, by all means champ them - but when we talk broadly about champing old vs new we are talking about what the best way to spend ~350k ISO is.

Straycat said:

And sure, I play short sightedly, because the long term is ever expanding. If I know eventually I can reach the point where all latest 12 are champed, and I have 2 covers now for a vaulted character, I think it could be better to champ the vaulted character first.

Again, in my scenario, its 2 latest covers wasted vs 2 vaulted covers wasted. So there is waste either way. For me, since it is harder to get vaulted covers, its harder to sell them. And those 2 champ levels sold of a vaulted character include an LT, and the 2 champ levels in 2 weeks for a latest 12 character might be 2500 iso and 50 hp.

No, this is faulty logic. That LT for champing Peggy will always be there whether you champ now or later, it's only wasted if you sell it.....which you are far more likely to do if you champ now compared to later when you have all the newest 12s champed.

Straycat said:

The no waste ever scenario doesn't account for resupply or 3* champ rewards,

I know, that's why I said "every cover you pull". The vast majority of 4*s that we get come from LTs, and so this should be the first area to target for minimizing waste. A very tiny amount of waste in 3* champ or daily resupply rewards doesn't make up for a much larger percentage of waste from your main source of 4* covers.

BoyWonder1914

Fightmastermpq said:

Straycat said:

And sure, I play short sightedly, because the long term is ever expanding. If I know eventually I can reach the point where all latest 12 are champed, and I have 2 covers now for a vaulted character, I think it could be better to champ the vaulted character first.

Again, in my scenario, its 2 latest covers wasted vs 2 vaulted covers wasted. So there is waste either way. For me, since it is harder to get vaulted covers, its harder to sell them. And those 2 champ levels sold of a vaulted character include an LT, and the 2 champ levels in 2 weeks for a latest 12 character might be 2500 iso and 50 hp.

No, this is faulty logic. That LT for champing Peggy will always be there whether you champ now or later, it's only wasted if you sell it.....which you are far more likely to do if you champ now compared to later when you have all the newest 12s champed.

More of your opinion, and it doesn't even make sense. The LT for champing that latest person will always be there too, and theoretically will be there even longer because the latest person has greater odds for you getting that cover again.

A vaulted cover? Your only shot is placement/progression, a 3* star champ reward, a Bonus Hero, or some lucky vault pull - all instances that occur extremely infrequently. A seldom occurence, which is practically the TEXTBOOK DEFINITION of the word "rare". So no, you don't get to tell someone who understands the rarity of that occurrence that they shouldn't value that cover. Get it in your head that not everyone gives 2 flying hoots how many potential champ levels a person will rake in. Quit preaching your rhetoric to people like they're failures at life for not seeing everything YOUR WAY. 

**Removed attacks on another poster - Ducky

Jaedenkaal

BoyWonder1914 said:

More of your opinion, and it doesn't even make sense. The LT for champing that latest person will always be there too, and theoretically will be there even longer because the latest person has greater odds for you getting that cover again.

A vaulted cover? Your only shot is placement/progression, a 3* star champ reward, a Bonus Hero, or some lucky vault pull - all instances that occur extremely infrequently. A seldom occurence, which is practically the TEXTBOOK DEFINITION of the word "rare". So no, you don't get to tell someone who understands the rarity of that occurrence that they shouldn't value that cover. Get it in your head that not everyone gives 2 flying hoots how many potential champ levels a person will rake in. Quit preaching your rhetoric to people like they're failures at life for not seeing everything YOUR WAY.

Well that escalated quickly.

I believe he's referring to the cover you get for cashing in that LT; if you champed Peggy instead of Mordo, you could still pull yet another Mordo cover from the LT, except now you don't have the ISO to champ Mordo, so you basically sold the LT that you got from champing Peggy. Obviously that won't happen every time, but it does increase the odds of it happening, so over time, you'll be selling more covers by champing vaulted characters before the latest 12.

Fightmastermpq

BoyWonder1914 said:

Fightmastermpq said:

Straycat said:

And sure, I play short sightedly, because the long term is ever expanding. If I know eventually I can reach the point where all latest 12 are champed, and I have 2 covers now for a vaulted character, I think it could be better to champ the vaulted character first.

Again, in my scenario, its 2 latest covers wasted vs 2 vaulted covers wasted. So there is waste either way. For me, since it is harder to get vaulted covers, its harder to sell them. And those 2 champ levels sold of a vaulted character include an LT, and the 2 champ levels in 2 weeks for a latest 12 character might be 2500 iso and 50 hp.

No, this is faulty logic. That LT for champing Peggy will always be there whether you champ now or later, it's only wasted if you sell it.....which you are far more likely to do if you champ now compared to later when you have all the newest 12s champed.

More of your opinionated tinykitty, and it doesn't even make sense. The LT for champing that latest person will always be there too, and theoretically will be there even longer because the latest person has greater odds for you getting that cover again.

A vaulted cover? Your only shot is placement/progression, a 3* star champ reward, a Bonus Hero, or some lucky vault pull - all instances that occur extremely infrequently. A seldom occurence, which is practically the TEXTBOOK DEFINITION of the word "rare". So no, you don't get to tell someone who understands the rarity of that occurrence that they shouldn't value that cover. GTFO dude, seriously. Get it in your head that not everyone gives 2 flying hoots how many potential champ levels a person will rake in. Quit preaching your rhetoric to people like they're failures at life for not seeing everything YOUR WAY. Go play with your action figures or something. 

I'm not disputing the definition of rare, I'm simply saying that in this case "rare" does not equate to "more valuable" as it typically does in most other scenarios.  In fact, in this case the fact that something is harder to get actually makes it less valuable.

Look I'm not trying to tell you how to play, I'm simply explaining what the more optimal method is under the current mechanics that have been given to us.  You can play however you want.  I don't care.  But I think it is important that others at least recognize that certain strategies are less efficient than others so that they can make a more informed decision.

If you said "yeah, you are right - it does make more sense to champ the newest 4*s......but I like these old characters and don't care all that much about playing 'optimally' so I'm choosing to champ these vaulted characters instead."  Then we'd be done.  The discussion is over at that point because we agree on how the current game mechanics work, and I have no business telling you how to play your game.  But you keep insisting that champing the newest 4s isn't more efficient and that's just plain wrong.  So I will continue to tell you that it's wrong, and continue to give detailed examples and explanations as to why it's wrong so that others don't believe your misinformation or take your opinion as fact.

broll

Fightmastermpq said:

BoyWonder1914 said:

Fightmastermpq said:

Straycat said:

And sure, I play short sightedly, because the long term is ever expanding. If I know eventually I can reach the point where all latest 12 are champed, and I have 2 covers now for a vaulted character, I think it could be better to champ the vaulted character first.

Again, in my scenario, its 2 latest covers wasted vs 2 vaulted covers wasted. So there is waste either way. For me, since it is harder to get vaulted covers, its harder to sell them. And those 2 champ levels sold of a vaulted character include an LT, and the 2 champ levels in 2 weeks for a latest 12 character might be 2500 iso and 50 hp.

No, this is faulty logic. That LT for champing Peggy will always be there whether you champ now or later, it's only wasted if you sell it.....which you are far more likely to do if you champ now compared to later when you have all the newest 12s champed.

More of your opinion, and it doesn't even make sense. The LT for champing that latest person will always be there too, and theoretically will be there even longer because the latest person has greater odds for you getting that cover again.

A vaulted cover? Your only shot is placement/progression, a 3* star champ reward, a Bonus Hero, or some lucky vault pull - all instances that occur extremely infrequently. A seldom occurence, which is practically the TEXTBOOK DEFINITION of the word "rare". So no, you don't get to tell someone who understands the rarity of that occurrence that they shouldn't value that cover. Get it in your head that not everyone gives 2 flying hoots how many potential champ levels a person will rake in. Quit preaching your rhetoric to people like they're failures at life for not seeing everything YOUR WAY. 

*snip*
If you said "yeah, you are right - it does make more sense to champ the newest 4*s......but I like these old characters and don't care all that much about playing 'optimally' so I'm choosing to champ these vaulted characters instead."  Then we'd be done.  The discussion is over at that point because we agree on how the current game mechanics work, and I have no business telling you how to play your game.  But you keep insisting that champing the newest 4s isn't more efficient and that's just plain wrong.  

He's saying it harshly, but he's not wrong.  I hate vaulting and want it to be reversed, but in the current meta you can't argue that champing a vaulted over a non-vaulted is more optimal.   I have about 4 vaulted at 13 and I'd love to champ them, but I'm too busy keeping up with the current 12 treadmill to have to do them (it's one of the many problems with this system IMO).  I'll get there, and if one of them get's featured or is going to get an extra cover, then I'll temporarily give them focus over a current 12, but that doesn't happen often in the current meta.

BoyWonder1914

Jaedenkaal said:

BoyWonder1914 said:

More of your opinion, and it doesn't even make sense. The LT for champing that latest person will always be there too, and theoretically will be there even longer because the latest person has greater odds for you getting that cover again.

A vaulted cover? Your only shot is placement/progression, a 3* star champ reward, a Bonus Hero, or some lucky vault pull - all instances that occur extremely infrequently. A seldom occurence, which is practically the TEXTBOOK DEFINITION of the word "rare". So no, you don't get to tell someone who understands the rarity of that occurrence that they shouldn't value that cover. Get it in your head that not everyone gives 2 flying hoots how many potential champ levels a person will rake in. Quit preaching your rhetoric to people like they're failures at life for not seeing everything YOUR WAY. 

Well that escalated quickly.

I believe he's referring to the cover you get for cashing in that LT; if you champed Peggy instead of Mordo, you could still pull yet another Mordo cover from the LT, except now you don't have the ISO to champ Mordo, so you basically sold the LT that you got from champing Peggy. Obviously that won't happen every time, but it does increase the odds of it happening, so over time, you'll be selling more covers by champing vaulted characters before the latest 12.

But there's the problem....just because the odds are lower doesn't mean that the LT Mordo gives won't provide a THEN unusable cover either. In either case of who you champ, CP and LTs can be used at your leisure. If you've still got more of the Token12 to go after Mordo and aren't sure that the pull will be usable, or you champ the vaulted person and know you've still got more to go, the choice is yours if you wanna hold on to that token. 

You can't stop resupply from feeding you a cover. You don't know that a heroic, event token, or taco is giving you a 4-star until you've opened it. It makes no sense to stall progress on your 3-star champs when they hit 182, 222, or 264, because the champ rewards provided after get sooooo much better after the 223 threshold. These instances essentially can't be prevented, and though there are varying degrees of frequency, most of them are seldom enough that it truly feels like giving up a huge opportunity if you don't use the cover. Who knows when they'll happen again. All I'm saying, is that if a person feels strongly enough about that, that it causes them to place a higher value on the cover than more potential champ rewards on a Token12, then that's their prerogative. You don't get to tell someone that they're using their resources "inefficiently", when you don't know how long they may have been waiting to finally champ that Iceman, TJ, etc. 

Fightmastermpq

BoyWonder1914 said:

Jaedenkaal said:

BoyWonder1914 said:

More of your opinionated tinykitty, and it doesn't even make sense. The LT for champing that latest person will always be there too, and theoretically will be there even longer because the latest person has greater odds for you getting that cover again.

A vaulted cover? Your only shot is placement/progression, a 3* star champ reward, a Bonus Hero, or some lucky vault pull - all instances that occur extremely infrequently. A seldom occurence, which is practically the TEXTBOOK DEFINITION of the word "rare". So no, you don't get to tell someone who understands the rarity of that occurrence that they shouldn't value that cover. GTFO dude, seriously. Get it in your head that not everyone gives 2 flying hoots how many potential champ levels a person will rake in. Quit preaching your rhetoric to people like they're failures at life for not seeing everything YOUR WAY. Go play with your action figures or something. 

Well that escalated quickly.

I believe he's referring to the cover you get for cashing in that LT; if you champed Peggy instead of Mordo, you could still pull yet another Mordo cover from the LT, except now you don't have the ISO to champ Mordo, so you basically sold the LT that you got from champing Peggy. Obviously that won't happen every time, but it does increase the odds of it happening, so over time, you'll be selling more covers by champing vaulted characters before the latest 12.

But there's the problem....just because the odds are lower doesn't mean that the LT Mordo gives won't provide a THEN unusable cover either. 

No, that's exactly what it means - especially if you have all 12 newest champed.