Power Gem Season Updates *Updated (4/6/17)

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  • Adrock1020
    Adrock1020 Posts: 44 Just Dropped In
    areyes81 said:
    fmftint said:
    No vitriol intended, I just think the outrage over the nerf is overblown considering there's so many other options to use. If someone has a high leveled OML, wouldn't it be reasonable to assume they have a couple of other high leveled/covered 5-stars? Use them instead. Problem solved. Honestly you're right that OML wasn't overpowered, but he was definitely overused and it made things boring in a game with a ton of diversity. The "true fan" bit came off a bit pretentious, I admit, but I guess my point was that if someone is threatening to quit playing the game altogether because of a nerf to one character, then it makes me think they don't really appreciate all the game has to offer. I'm on day 1200+ and I've spent hundreds of dollars on the game. I've read posts from people saying they're quitting because they removed environment tiles. Then they're quitting because the nerfed XFW. Then 4hor. Etc. Its an ever evolving, ever expanding game and to put all your eggs in one basket (character) is unwise. If someone unwisely did that and they want to storm off and quit, so be it. I'll keep playing and take their spot. 
    You're very naive. NO having one decent level 5 star DOES NOT mean you have others as well
    It's not naivety, it's just averages. If you pulled say, 10 OML covers from LTs, then you should probably have about that many SS or Phoenix covers. Maybe a few less for BB, Goblin, BSS etc. I think it's pretty naive to think someone has fully covered OML and not a single other 5-star with at least 8 covers. 
    You are naive and clearly don't have a max 5* my oml is lvl 462, that comes from that hard work you spoke of before the 5* pool was diluted and given horrible odds. My next 2 closest is 454 PHX and 451 SS, no other 5* is over 9 covers. Classics are so diluted that I only pull from latest in hopes of covering one before a new one comes out and they get regulated. It took me 1yr to cover 3 5* and at this rate will be 2 yrs before another one is. A diluted pool with horrible draw rates is why OML is popular even though he isn't the best. It's because at that level and MMR and a diluted pool, he is all folks have to survive. Otherwise they sell a max 5* and negate all the effort (and yes for some money) put into having a toon that helps against MMR where 70k Juggernauts in pve with cheap powers and against other OP 5*
    You're confusing naivety with me being unsympathetic. You're right, I don't have a champed 5-star. That doesn't even matter. I do have a bunch of champed 4-stars. If one of them got nerfed, I wouldn't being throwing an online hissy fit demanding compensation and threatening to quit the game. I would just move on to the next character. So....move on to the next character. 
  • Adrock1020
    Adrock1020 Posts: 44 Just Dropped In
    morph3us said:
    fmftint said:
    No vitriol intended, I just think the outrage over the nerf is overblown considering there's so many other options to use. If someone has a high leveled OML, wouldn't it be reasonable to assume they have a couple of other high leveled/covered 5-stars? Use them instead. Problem solved. Honestly you're right that OML wasn't overpowered, but he was definitely overused and it made things boring in a game with a ton of diversity. The "true fan" bit came off a bit pretentious, I admit, but I guess my point was that if someone is threatening to quit playing the game altogether because of a nerf to one character, then it makes me think they don't really appreciate all the game has to offer. I'm on day 1200+ and I've spent hundreds of dollars on the game. I've read posts from people saying they're quitting because they removed environment tiles. Then they're quitting because the nerfed XFW. Then 4hor. Etc. Its an ever evolving, ever expanding game and to put all your eggs in one basket (character) is unwise. If someone unwisely did that and they want to storm off and quit, so be it. I'll keep playing and take their spot. 
    You're very naive. NO having one decent level 5 star DOES NOT mean you have others as well
    It's not naivety, it's just averages. If you pulled say, 10 OML covers from LTs, then you should probably have about that many SS or Phoenix covers. Maybe a few less for BB, Goblin, BSS etc. I think it's pretty naive to think someone has fully covered OML and not a single other 5-star with at least 8 covers. 
    There are three people in my alliance for whom OML is the only championed, or near championed 5* that they have available.  The OML nerf basically throws them all back into 4* land, and they've all been working really hard over the last year to finish off a 5*.  One of them spent 1440CP recently to finish off his OML.

    You're assuming averages, but when you do, you're looking at a bell-curve, and there are going to be people sitting at the wrong end of the curve.  "Probably have about that many SS or Phoenix covers" doesn't hold true for a lot of people.
    I have less than zero sympathy for anyone that spends 1440 CP on one character. Back to my original point, it's unwise to put all your eggs (CP) into one basket (character). If you're even capable of hoarding that much CP, you should know by now that this game changes pretty often, and you shouldn't be spending CP on individual covers. It's a horrible ROI. 
  • fmftint
    fmftint Posts: 3,653 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited April 2017
    As @aesthetocyst has shown in several forum posts, Demiurge is REALLY bad at data analysis, especially when applied to the 5 star tier. These changes and their reasons for them only confirm it
  • areyes81
    areyes81 Posts: 14 Just Dropped In
    Adrock1020 said: know
    areyes81 said:
    fmftint said:
    No vitriol intended, I just think the outrage over the nerf is overblown considering there's so many other options to use. If someone has a high leveled OML, wouldn't it be reasonable to assume they have a couple of other high leveled/covered 5-stars? Use them instead. Problem solved. Honestly you're right that OML wasn't overpowered, but he was definitely overused and it made things boring in a game with a ton of diversity. The "true fan" bit came off a bit pretentious, I admit, but I guess my point was that if someone is threatening to quit playing the game altogether because of a nerf to one character, then it makes me think they don't really appreciate all the game has to offer. I'm on day 1200+ and I've spent hundreds of dollars on the game. I've read posts from people saying they're quitting because they removed environment tiles. Then they're quitting because the nerfed XFW. Then 4hor. Etc. Its an ever evolving, ever expanding game and to put all your eggs in one basket (character) is unwise. If someone unwisely did that and they want to storm off and quit, so be it. I'll keep playing and take their spot. 
    You're very naive. NO having one decent level 5 star DOES NOT mean you have others as well
    It's not naivety, it's just averages. If you pulled say, 10 OML covers from LTs, then you should probably have about that many SS or Phoenix covers. Maybe a few less for BB, Goblin, BSS etc. I think it's pretty naive to think someone has fully covered OML and not a single other 5-star with at least 8 covers. 
    You are naive and clearly don't have a max 5* my oml is lvl 462, that comes from that hard work you spoke of before the 5* pool was diluted and given horrible odds. My next 2 closest is 454 PHX and 451 SS, no other 5* is over 9 covers. Classics are so diluted that I only pull from latest in hopes of covering one before a new one comes out and they get regulated. It took me 1yr to cover 3 5* and at this rate will be 2 yrs before another one is. A diluted pool with horrible draw rates is why OML is popular even though he isn't the best. It's because at that level and MMR and a diluted pool, he is all folks have to survive. Otherwise they sell a max 5* and negate all the effort (and yes for some money) put into having a toon that helps against MMR where 70k Juggernauts in pve with cheap powers and against other OP 5*
    You're confusing naivety with me being unsympathetic. You're right, I don't have a champed 5-star. That doesn't even matter. I do have a bunch of champed 4-stars. If one of them got nerfed, I wouldn't being throwing an online hissy fit demanding compensation and threatening to quit the game. I would just move on to the next character. So....move on to the next character. 
    You still don't get it. I have most 4* champ, but with MMR and 3 champ 5* that aren't even the best anymore it is near impossible to just switch to a next one or use just 4*. I don't see 4* teams in PvP. MMR in pve is ridiculously high and the game set up to clear fast to get the best rewards that even my boosted 4* alone can't do that. 5* can't be compared to 4* because it is so much easier to fully cover and max them. A new 4* can be fully covered and max within 2 weeks without spending a dime, yet it takes at least 6 months to a year or more to get the same result with 5* unless you spend money. For those who have spent little and worked hard to max 5* the nerf is a HUGE blow. Not everyone put their eggs in one basket for the sake of doing it. MMR forces you to utilize the best option available and for many, due to how long he's been out, that's OML. The issue isn't the character, it's the game setup
  • LordXberk
    LordXberk Posts: 252 Mover and Shaker
    edited April 2017
    areyes81 said:
    fmftint said:
    No vitriol intended, I just think the outrage over the nerf is overblown considering there's so many other options to use. If someone has a high leveled OML, wouldn't it be reasonable to assume they have a couple of other high leveled/covered 5-stars? Use them instead. Problem solved. Honestly you're right that OML wasn't overpowered, but he was definitely overused and it made things boring in a game with a ton of diversity. The "true fan" bit came off a bit pretentious, I admit, but I guess my point was that if someone is threatening to quit playing the game altogether because of a nerf to one character, then it makes me think they don't really appreciate all the game has to offer. I'm on day 1200+ and I've spent hundreds of dollars on the game. I've read posts from people saying they're quitting because they removed environment tiles. Then they're quitting because the nerfed XFW. Then 4hor. Etc. Its an ever evolving, ever expanding game and to put all your eggs in one basket (character) is unwise. If someone unwisely did that and they want to storm off and quit, so be it. I'll keep playing and take their spot. 
    You're very naive. NO having one decent level 5 star DOES NOT mean you have others as well
    It's not naivety, it's just averages. If you pulled say, 10 OML covers from LTs, then you should probably have about that many SS or Phoenix covers. Maybe a few less for BB, Goblin, BSS etc. I think it's pretty naive to think someone has fully covered OML and not a single other 5-star with at least 8 covers. 
    You are naive and clearly don't have a max 5* my oml is lvl 462, that comes from that hard work you spoke of before the 5* pool was diluted and given horrible odds. My next 2 closest is 454 PHX and 451 SS, no other 5* is over 9 covers. Classics are so diluted that I only pull from latest in hopes of covering one before a new one comes out and they get regulated. It took me 1yr to cover 3 5* and at this rate will be 2 yrs before another one is. A diluted pool with horrible draw rates is why OML is popular even though he isn't the best. It's because at that level and MMR and a diluted pool, he is all folks have to survive. Otherwise they sell a max 5* and negate all the effort (and yes for some money) put into having a toon that helps against MMR where 70k Juggernauts in pve with cheap powers and against other OP 5*
    You're confusing naivety with me being unsympathetic. You're right, I don't have a champed 5-star. That doesn't even matter. I do have a bunch of champed 4-stars. If one of them got nerfed, I wouldn't being throwing an online hissy fit demanding compensation and threatening to quit the game. I would just move on to the next character. So....move on to the next character. 
    How long did it take you to get any one of those 4* champs?  A fraction of the time it took to get a 5* champ (or maybe even 5* cover).  Being able to digest a 4* nerf is much, much easier due to the sheer number of options at the 4* level and the scaling that doesn't limit your choices to a handful of 5*s. You're showing your own ignorance of the issue if you don't understand the difference between a 4* and 5* nerf.
  • Vhailorx
    Vhailorx Posts: 5,649 Chairperson of the Boards
    fmftint said:
    As @aesthetocyst has shown in several forum posts, Demiurge is REALLY bad at data analysis, especially when applied to the 5 star tier. These changes and their reasons for them only confirm it
    I don't know that we can say that they are bad at data analysis.  We don't know what they look at behind the scenes and what data actually informs their design decisions.  But what we can say is that pretty much whenever demi urge presents a data-based rationale for any particular change, it doesn't really stand up to scrutiny from the players (e.g. OML is used in 10% of victories, ergo he is too powerful).  But can we really tell if they actually believe the stuff they give us on the forums, or if they just cherry pick data points that they think are (i) simple enough for players to understand, and (ii) support their arguments? 

    It's not really pretty picture either way; either they know what they are doing and cynically use bad data for PR, or they really have no idea what their data is telling them. 
  • BoyWonder1914
    BoyWonder1914 Posts: 827 Critical Contributor
    To me the term "buff" implies that the character will be doing more damage. AP stealing is cool and all, but I was really hoping that they were going to make her black and red and do more damage. I'll take it obviously, but this isn't necessarily going to make me want to use her more often. It didn't say it explicitly, but if her purple no longer gives enemy strike tiles, then the PX crash against her is seriously going to be a very long and annoying game of hide and match her to death because you have absolutely no way of getting special tiles on the board. 

    As for Carnage, I can understand the frustration with his black passive. However this deals a major blow to the people that learned how to use it to their benefit both with him on their team, and against him (Medusa, Ock, Invisible Woman, PX, Sam Wilson (both), Venom). I suppose at the end of the day there's probably more people having a tough time against him than there are people loving him, but being part of the latter group I was looking forward to a change that AGAIN, would make me want to use him more often. At least his crash against Ock should be easier now, so yay? 
  • RoboDuck
    RoboDuck Posts: 142 Tile Toppler
    edited April 2017
    fmftint said:
    So used in greater than 10% of all matches won... Who'll be on that list next month? And can we expect a nerf there too? Or was that just a convenient metric to force a change that was originally pitched last September?
    Enjoy Peggy, Iceman, Carol, Dr. Strange, & Thanos while you can.  They'll be next.  So use them while they're good.  They'll all be garbage soon.
  • gravel
    gravel Posts: 585 Critical Contributor
    Brigby said:
    gravel said:
    @Brigby When unusable covers are pulled from the No More Guns cover store, will CS swap them?
    Yes. Per the current policy, if you pull a Latest Legends cover from the store, then CS can swap it for you.
    @Brigby I was referring to the No More Guns cover store, not the latest Legends.  Will these tokens count towards this policy, or only if you pull an unusable character from the No More Guns token that also is still in the Latest Legends?
  • JamesV
    JamesV Posts: 98 Match Maker
    I understand the frustration at the nerf, but I just do not understand the "they are doing this to sell more health packs" conspiracy at all. There would be dozens of better ways to motivate those sales. 
  • fmftint
    fmftint Posts: 3,653 Chairperson of the Boards
    Incorrect tokens from sell back, terms state 1 at 255, second at 300, additional every 30 levels. My 420 only gives 5, should be 
    1 255
    2 300
    3 330
    4 360
    5 390
    6 420
  • killerkoala
    killerkoala Posts: 1,185 Chairperson of the Boards
    ll should be how many covers u had not how much iso u put in it.
  • bigsmooth
    bigsmooth Posts: 375 Mover and Shaker
    edited April 2017

    Crowl said:
    It is possible that Carnage's red might allow him to be more useful in general if the damage is a suitable level for a single target nuke since he won't be hammering his team.

    For it not to be a total nerf, his black needs to seriously widen the gap in strength between the friendly and enemy tiles, it is one thing for the opposing team to get something for free, but if you are having to spend ap to produce these tiles then they need to be strongly in your favour or it will just be easier to ignore the power entirely. Two uses of this power will cost more than Storm's black and the same as blade's purple so with him also creating enemy tiles, him being a 4* vs those being 3*s his should be noticeably improved.


    I agree. If they leave his red damage to the main target unchanged, it's about 700 dmg/AP in its first form, which is respectable if unspectacular; it's also relatively cheap so you can cast it often if there is a strike tile generator on the team. This change could also save health packs depending on who you're using him with since you can avoid self-damage. It's sort of a lateral move, but I wouldn't call that part a nerf.

    The change to black is a real problem, though. If the issue was the number of animations, they could have made it cost like 1 or 2 AP so people could still spam it (if they wanted to) in order to use him in the unique combinations he was well-suited for. 5 AP doesn't sound like a lot, but it generally takes two turns to accrue 5 AP; Alien Instincts could previously fire multiple times per turn. Unless, as you noted, the friendly attack tiles are significantly strengthened, the revised version sounds like a terrible use of your black AP.

    Edit: Changes are live in-game and the friendly black tiles are NOT significantly stronger. We have a new contender for worst power in the 4* tier!

    Given the nerf to his black, green is primarily reduced to a random board shake power. Yes, it's cheaper, but without a high chance of many special tiles on the board, who cares?

    I was one of the people who recently prioritized champing Medusa to use with my champed Carnage; it's really been a lot of fun using them together. It didn't seem overpowered at all; yes, it was effective, but it was also very slow - I certainly wouldn't have used it to climb in PVP or when trying to clear nodes quickly in PVE. It's unfortunate they are making this change now AFTER releasing Medusa.
  • Borstock
    Borstock Posts: 1,943 Chairperson of the Boards
    You still don't get it. I have most 4* champ, but with MMR and 3 champ 5* that aren't even the best anymore it is near impossible to just switch to a next one or use just 4*. I don't see 4* teams in PvP. MMR in pve is ridiculously high and the game set up to clear fast to get the best rewards that even my boosted 4* alone can't do that. 5* can't be compared to 4* because it is so much easier to fully cover and max them. A new 4* can be fully covered and max within 2 weeks without spending a dime, yet it takes at least 6 months to a year or more to get the same result with 5* unless you spend money. For those who have spent little and worked hard to max 5* the nerf is a HUGE blow. Not everyone put their eggs in one basket for the sake of doing it. MMR forces you to utilize the best option available and for many, due to how long he's been out, that's OML. The issue isn't the character, it's the game setup
    Which is why the nerf isn't the problem. It's only highlighting the problem that's been there since 5* characters were introduced.
  • therightwaye
    therightwaye Posts: 459 Mover and Shaker
    Does anyone else feel like overall they just nerfed Carnage too? Because I have a champed Carnage that I don't feel so good about anymore.
  • therightwaye
    therightwaye Posts: 459 Mover and Shaker
    edited April 2017
    The carnage change was a huge nerf, no question. 

    It was so completely unnecessary. I don't have a huge problem with his red, but his black needs to keep its passive. Maybe make it to where there's an AP threshold, like if you have 18ap it changes it to passive. Or if you down a character it just starts spamming the board with them like 3* Bullseye. 

    But they have removed what made Carnage unique. Yeah a lot of people didn't like it, but that was more due to animation hell than anything else. 

    Agreed. So my opinion has always been that PvP sucks. There is basically no defense. And that's been stated before. People will challenge you regardless of who you have on your team and at what level. Mostly because the AI is stupid and can't play. So you can almost always win. But Carnage was probably the biggest detour to any aggressive play style because players who fired lots of powers didn't want to spend the extra time playing against Carnage. The power animation alone added more seconds than I was willing to deal with. SO if I could avoid Carnage, I would! Now, well now I just care. Carnage is just like every other character. 

    In my opinion this is the worse NERF. I didn't play OML, I respected players choice to use him, but his nerf just doesn't affect me as much. In regards to PvP seeing OML on a team didn't matter, not like Carnage did. I could win matches against OML 90% of the time. I could win those matches quickly.

    But yeah nerfing OML probably slowed games down for players who had enough covers. And well that is ****.
    Nice job guys, you're making your product worse. This is the Pepsi Clear of updates.

  • whitecat31
    whitecat31 Posts: 579 Critical Contributor
    morph3us said:
    fmftint said:
    No vitriol intended, I just think the outrage over the nerf is overblown considering there's so many other options to use. If someone has a high leveled OML, wouldn't it be reasonable to assume they have a couple of other high leveled/covered 5-stars? Use them instead. Problem solved. Honestly you're right that OML wasn't overpowered, but he was definitely overused and it made things boring in a game with a ton of diversity. The "true fan" bit came off a bit pretentious, I admit, but I guess my point was that if someone is threatening to quit playing the game altogether because of a nerf to one character, then it makes me think they don't really appreciate all the game has to offer. I'm on day 1200+ and I've spent hundreds of dollars on the game. I've read posts from people saying they're quitting because they removed environment tiles. Then they're quitting because the nerfed XFW. Then 4hor. Etc. Its an ever evolving, ever expanding game and to put all your eggs in one basket (character) is unwise. If someone unwisely did that and they want to storm off and quit, so be it. I'll keep playing and take their spot. 
    You're very naive. NO having one decent level 5 star DOES NOT mean you have others as well
    It's not naivety, it's just averages. If you pulled say, 10 OML covers from LTs, then you should probably have about that many SS or Phoenix covers. Maybe a few less for BB, Goblin, BSS etc. I think it's pretty naive to think someone has fully covered OML and not a single other 5-star with at least 8 covers. 
    There are three people in my alliance for whom OML is the only championed, or near championed 5* that they have available.  The OML nerf basically throws them all back into 4* land, and they've all been working really hard over the last year to finish off a 5*.  One of them spent 1440CP recently to finish off his OML.

    You're assuming averages, but when you do, you're looking at a bell-curve, and there are going to be people sitting at the wrong end of the curve.  "Probably have about that many SS or Phoenix covers" doesn't hold true for a lot of people.
    I have less than zero sympathy for anyone that spends 1440 CP on one character. Back to my original point, it's unwise to put all your eggs (CP) into one basket (character). If you're even capable of hoarding that much CP, you should know by now that this game changes pretty often, and you shouldn't be spending CP on individual covers. It's a horrible ROI. 

    First off Demiurge said that Old Man Logan and other five stars were supposed to be as powerful as they were. In fact they have been working as intended. Also Demiurge promised us they won't nerf or change 5 stars. So thanks for rubbing salt into people's wounds who actually trusted Demiurge.  Quit shaming or attacking the victim, because you think you are smarter than them. Demiurge has demonstrated they are not to be trusted in the past, but not on this type of scale and monetary investment.  
  • Jaedenkaal
    Jaedenkaal Posts: 3,357 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited April 2017
    Also Demiurge promised us they won't nerf or change 5 stars.
    I'd be interested in seeing the source for this claim. I'd be surprised if they every explicitly made this promise, and they'd be silly to do so.

    @ Brigby
    Can we get the new numbers for OMLs alternate powers? They're pretty hard (impossible, even) to get in game, especially for cover levels you don't have.
  • Freelancer
    Freelancer Posts: 122 Tile Toppler
    Has the conditional part of Elektras Double-Double Cross, to steal an extra tile if you have a trap, been removed? I don't see it mentioned in-game in the powers description.