Upcoming Character Change to Wolverine (Old Man Logan)

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Comments

  • Jaedenkaal
    Jaedenkaal Posts: 3,357 Chairperson of the Boards
    Ratvader wrote:
    Azoth658 wrote:
    Ratvader wrote:
    Maybe my grasp of math is bad but if 10% of wining teams use him that means 90% DONT!!!!!!!!!!

    Thats by no means unbalanced! The argument is a fraud. Its a straw man designed to distract from the truth:


    OML heals.

    Your grasp of maths is bad icon_e_wink.gif

    If every combination that could be made from every player was equally played (perfect balance) and every player had him his play percentage should probably be in something like 0.8% of matches.

    I'd love the developers to show the top ten characters with the same stat. If IM40 is second with 2% would people still think 10% is acceptable?

    My math is perfect, your grasp of what i said isnt. Lets review, and i will use small words so you will understand:

    10% of wining matchs use OML. That means 90% dont.

    You adressed possible cover use which has absolutely nothing to with the 90/10 stat i addressed.

    Congratulations, you fell for d3's strawman and proved a lack reading comprehension at the same time.

    Actually since D3 is making the assertion (OML is used in 10% of winning matches) and not arguing against anything, they can't really be making a straw-man argument. However, since you are making an argument against a superficially similar proposition, as though it were an argument against D3's original; you might well be making a straw man argument.
  • Dauthi
    Dauthi Posts: 995 Critical Contributor
    APRIL FOOLS!!

    icon_lol.gificon_lol.gificon_lol.gificon_lol.gificon_lol.gificon_lol.gificon_lol.gificon_lol.gificon_lol.gif

    Always a possibility!
  • Wonko33
    Wonko33 Posts: 985 Critical Contributor
    dlegendary0ne wrote:
    I'm not happy with OML being nerfed for all the reasons previously stated (I just got mine to 10 covers), but my post is about how this change is being handled:

    This would've gone much smoother if we had been given all of the details up front. There would still be backlash but not as much.

    My roster is similar owning a house. I invest time and money building and customizing it to make it how I like it. With this announcement, you're essentially walking into my house uninvited and unexpected, sitting down in my best chair, and telling me you're gonna make changes to one of my favorite things about my house. It's not even up for discussion, and there's no acknowledgement of how it makes me feel.


    The fact that you're even walking into my house against my wishes makes me uncomfortable and angry, but then you're not telling me what you specifically intend to do (no informative details about the nerf). That makes me even more uncomfortable and angry. I'm going to want to resist you as much as possible - even if there's some good in the change.

    My point is the way d3 handles announcements like this is just as much a part of the quality of life of the game as the changes you're looking to make to the game. Customers always respond well to good customer service. In this case, that means giving people complete information they can use, and acknowledging how those changes make customers feel. (Not to say that you don't care, but it's not readily portrayed in this communication).


    you forgot that you are renting, remember this when you invest in digital media
  • Jaedenkaal
    Jaedenkaal Posts: 3,357 Chairperson of the Boards
    Wonko33 wrote:
    dlegendary0ne wrote:
    I'm not happy with OML being nerfed for all the reasons previously stated (I just got mine to 10 covers), but my post is about how this change is being handled:

    This would've gone much smoother if we had been given all of the details up front. There would still be backlash but not as much.

    My roster is similar owning a house. I invest time and money building and customizing it to make it how I like it. With this announcement, you're essentially walking into my house uninvited and unexpected, sitting down in my best chair, and telling me you're gonna make changes to one of my favorite things about my house. It's not even up for discussion, and there's no acknowledgement of how it makes me feel.


    The fact that you're even walking into my house against my wishes makes me uncomfortable and angry, but then you're not telling me what you specifically intend to do (no informative details about the nerf). That makes me even more uncomfortable and angry. I'm going to want to resist you as much as possible - even if there's some good in the change.

    My point is the way d3 handles announcements like this is just as much a part of the quality of life of the game as the changes you're looking to make to the game. Customers always respond well to good customer service. In this case, that means giving people complete information they can use, and acknowledging how those changes make customers feel. (Not to say that you don't care, but it's not readily portrayed in this communication).


    you forgot that you are renting, remember this when you invest in digital media

    Following this analogy, you're frankly lucky to have had such a strong chair up until now that you can sit in at all icon_e_wink.gif At least you've been sitting in a chair up until now. Some of us have had to sit on the floor the entire time.
  • BetrayerOfHope
    BetrayerOfHope Posts: 11 Just Dropped In
    SuperBatPoohMan wrote:
    Every single question u have regarding this game can be summed up in one answer ....money

    $$$$$

    True heal = less health packs bought

    Every change = money for devs...pretty simple...that's why I retired and remain retired.

    No one asked you, Britney.
  • Justice Jacks
    Justice Jacks Posts: 116 Tile Toppler
    OML is far less dominant today than he was when he was released. And with each new 5 star, he is less and less relevant to the meta. To nerf him now, after 18 months of letting the top players brutalize the rest of the field with him, is just a kick in the pants (and not the backside of said pants, either). This is just a baffling decision across all tiers of players. There is literally no one that this actually helps (other than D3's accountants, perhaps)

    For the lower-tier players, this will have no change at all. This is the tier that isn't using OML anyway and thus cannot be part of the "too much usage" problem. They will see 0 change in current game play. Further, as the dilution in classics continues, there is almost no way they will be covering OML without having a handful of other, fully covered, 5-star options. And they'll at least know what the new OML is before deciding what character to level up.

    For the 3-star tier, OML is one of the only useful 5 stars that doesn't have to have a lot of ISO dumped into them, while still having some usefulness (solely as a tank to save a few health packs over an hour or two). But largely, a non-leveled OML is a worse character than 75% of all their champed 3-star options. They will be minimally impacted, but that impact will not be positive. And new 3-star players will face about the same impact as the lower-tier players above.

    At the 3-4 star transition, this hurts the most. Many long-term 4-star transitioning players only have a couple of options at the 5-star level with sufficient covers to make them worth anything. OML, Phx, SS, and GG are the most likely as they are the oldest bunch. These 4-star players will often level 1 or 2 of their 5s during this stage to supplement their limited stable of 4-star champs. These leveled 5s can really impact a player's MMR, so it is wise to only select the most useable of the bunch. As has been repeatedly mentioned, the most likely to scale is OML because:

    1) he is the most useful at low cover levels;
    2) he is, at worst, the 2nd most likely to be well covered since he was the 2nd 5 star release (and probably the most likely to be covered well since SS was garbage for so long); and
    3) he is a HP savior and has his best use as a tank.

    OML does not allow this player to dominate in either PVP or PVE. But he does prevent them from having to purchase as many health packs and tends to be used for the seed teams only (after which, there is almost always a better boosted 4-star to use). But for those that have boosted OML and are still in this tier, they are being screwed the most. They are gonna retain the exact same MMR nastiness but lose the abilities of the character that caused them to reach that MMR in the first place.

    Then there is the 4 to 5 star transitioning roster. This tier is getting crushed. Many of the transitioning rosters only had the ISO to max a couple of 5 stars, and that decision was made based on the qualities of the characters at the time the ISO was to be applied. With this change, these players get the same brutal MMR, but have worse available options to face that MMR with.

    And finally, the whales. This group was given the keys to the kingdom for a time when OML was one of the only 5-star options. He truly dominated this game. He and Phoenix (like HB and Jean before them) were all you needed to be able to destroy anyone at any time, and finish at the top of the PVP world. But those days have passed. There are so many more devastating options that these players now have at their disposal. OML is largely a non-factor in terms of game play at this tier. But what this change to OML should cause this group to do is to rethink their spending on this game. Whales have spent thousands of dollars to get their rosters to the levels they are. If D3 sets a precedent that at any time they can step in and nerf those characters that required that kind of spend, why am I spending again? What's to say the characters I'm currently spending on won't be nerfed?

    Since we are being honest, there are no stronger characters in the game today than Thanos and Bolt. If you just champ 5-star Thanos, you will win every single PVE event and it really won't be close. 40-45 minute initial clears and 30-40 minute final clears are just impossible to achieve without a champed Thanos and the remainder of your roster being around 300 or below. But since not too many players have him champed in this way, D3 will let that go for a year before fixing him once others are able to take advantage.

    It should also be noted that when grilling, other than Phx, there is really no one in the 5-star tier better than OML. He is THAT easily defeated. The irony of the developers calling a character overpowered, when that very same character is constantly being used to create a team that is easily and quickly defeated by other players, might be the only bright spot of this nerf. No clearer demonstration of D3's being out of sync with their player base than this "fix."
  • WRIGHT3OUS
    WRIGHT3OUS Posts: 60 Match Maker
    Hopefully they will do something about pve scaling since they are **** anyone with a high level oml and nothing else really.
  • SuperBatPoohMan
    SuperBatPoohMan Posts: 58
    BetrayerOfHope wrote:
    SuperBatPoohMan wrote:
    Every single question u have regarding this game can be summed up in one answer ....money

    $$$$$

    True heal = less health packs bought

    Every change = money for devs...pretty simple...that's why I retired and remain retired.

    No one asked you, Britney.


    Lol....I see u

    "Now there's a name I've not heard in a long, long time. "
  • ClydeFrog76
    ClydeFrog76 Posts: 1,350 Chairperson of the Boards
    V1ascQj.png

    I've been playing pretty much since launch and I literally *just* got him to a usable state. He's made me enjoy the game again. And now he's getting nerfed.

    I'm going to wait and see exactly what the changes are (I honestly can't believe you've created this thread before having all the information to share with us), but this could potentially be the end for me. I really am quite sick of the way you're treating your players; the way EVERYTHING comes down to money, absolutely everything. You have one of the most loyal and forgiving group of players I've encountered, and time and time again you kick us where it hurts.

    It's boring. I'm over it.
  • vinsensual
    vinsensual Posts: 458 Mover and Shaker
    Good timing to announce this a week after the majority of my alliance renewed their VIP, just like last month's game altering surprise change.
  • Vhailorx
    Vhailorx Posts: 6,085 Chairperson of the Boards
    Wonko33 wrote:
    People play the best character, there is nothing they can do about it. Used to be
    Ragnarock - nerf
    Sentry - nerf
    She Thor & Xforce - nerf (this one turned me into a casual player)
    Now it's OML - metrics say everyone plays him, just like it did all those other times

    Sure nerf him, the masses will all move to the next king of the hill.

    Maybe they just make a ton of dough when we all rush to the new best thing or maybe they are just slow learners. Enjoy the poopstrorm people the wind is rising

    But that's the point that most 5* players are making. OML is NOT the king of the hill. He is arguably not even one of the top 5 best 5*s by any metric other than sustainability. His relatively high usage has to do with factors largely unrelated to hit strength as a character. So the rationale for this nerf doesn't make much sense.
  • Sandwichboy
    Sandwichboy Posts: 193 Tile Toppler
    Ah yes continuing the proud, storied tradition of releasing a new OP version of Wolverine, way later finally admitting it was OP the whole time and then nerfing it into obsolescence, then promptly forget said version exists and never rebalance it again.

    Don't ever change, Demiurge...don't ever change. #winningatfixingthewrongproblem
  • Beta-Ray Bill
    Beta-Ray Bill Posts: 124 Tile Toppler
    I would just like for them to stop taking two steps backward to make one step forward. OML can have his nerf, but step up the pull rates on the overflowing 5*. THAT would make this a half way decent trade
  • Darknes21
    Darknes21 Posts: 321 Mover and Shaker
    10+ pages of people complaining on how
    Bad this is!

    Wake up D3! Your players don't want you to ruin one of the best characters in the game!
  • snlf25
    snlf25 Posts: 947 Critical Contributor
    Darknes21 wrote:
    10+ pages of people complaining on how
    Bad this is!

    Wake up D3! Your players don't want you to ruin one of the best characters in the game!

    ****, they've never woken up yet. We are the ones who need to wake up and realize we are in an abusive relationship.
  • Vhailorx
    Vhailorx Posts: 6,085 Chairperson of the Boards
    Beta-Ray Bill wrote:
    I would just like for them to stop taking two steps backward to make one step forward. OML can have his nerf, but step up the pull rates on the overflowing 5*. THAT would make this a half way decent trade

    Especially if lack of usage is going to be cited as evidence of the failure of the SS and 5Cap buffs. Those characters were in the heavily diluted classics pool for months before either nerf. People didn't chase them when they were relatively easier to get because they were weak. And post-buff no one really had the option when each classic LT has a 1.X% chance at dropping them. So the people who have these characters covered are almost exclusively those whales or super hardcore players that have multiple 5* champs. And they are still going to use Thanos or Black Bolt even after the buffs.
  • madsalad
    madsalad Posts: 815 Critical Contributor
    Beta-Ray Bill wrote:
    Ratvader wrote:
    Azoth658 wrote:
    Ratvader wrote:
    Maybe my grasp of math is bad but if 10% of wining teams use him that means 90% DONT!!!!!!!!!!

    Thats by no means unbalanced! The argument is a fraud. Its a straw man designed to distract from the truth:


    OML heals.

    Your grasp of maths is bad icon_e_wink.gif

    If every combination that could be made from every player was equally played (perfect balance) and every player had him his play percentage should probably be in something like 0.8% of matches.

    I'd love the developers to show the top ten characters with the same stat. If IM40 is second with 2% would people still think 10% is acceptable?

    My math is perfect, your grasp of what i said isnt. Lets review, and i will use small words so you will understand:

    10% of wining matchs use OML. That means 90% dont.

    You adressed possible cover use which has absolutely nothing to with the 90/10 stat i addressed.

    Congratulations, you fell for d3's strawman and proved a lack reading comprehension at the same time.

    Winning*
    Addressed*

    And what you're saying basically is proving their point that you don't need OML that bad anyhow nice 90% of your games can be played without him, right?

    I think the number I would like to see when talking about the "10%" is "how many of the people in the 10% have multiple 5* champs to choose from, but still choose to play with OML". My guess would be close to 0%.

    If you have a champed Thanos and Bolt, you are not playing OML.
  • thisone
    thisone Posts: 655 Critical Contributor
    You know what this nerf really means?

    6* wolverine confirmed!

    I eagerly anticipate his nerf thread in january 2019.
  • Beta-Ray Bill
    Beta-Ray Bill Posts: 124 Tile Toppler
    Vhailorx wrote:
    Beta-Ray Bill wrote:
    I would just like for them to stop taking two steps backward to make one step forward. OML can have his nerf, but step up the pull rates on the overflowing 5*. THAT would make this a half way decent trade

    Especially if lack of usage is going to be cited as evidence of the failure of the SS and 5Cap buffs. Those characters were in the heavily diluted classics pool for months before either nerf. People didn't chase them when they were relatively easier to get because they were weak. And post-buff no one really had the option when each classic LT has a 1.X% chance at dropping them. So the people who have these characters covered are almost exclusively those whales or super hardcore players that have multiple 5* champs. And they are still going to use Thanos or Black Bolt even after the buffs.

    Have to agree here. 5cap was exciting to see come through, but I never had any excitement while trying him. Surfer I had champed and going for a while before the buff, but he's only good when you aren't going against any other 5* but himself. The reason why oml is so overly used, because people had access to get him easier as the 2nd 5* released and the 2nd 5* in the classic side. Players had equal chance on both sides for a long time. Since that's changed you see more latest being played. Guess that's where I'm confused

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