Brigby and Cthulu - when we will get feedback?

CNash

We've been wanting a 3* and 4*-only store for some time now. All will hinge on whether tokens for it will be awarded as prizes or purchasable with CP. If it's HP only, it'll be disappointing - especially if the 4* Vault prices are anything to go on.

Thanks for the info Brigby, it's appreciated.

Eichen

How about a poll?

DFiPL

Brigby wrote:

- A new store containing older 3 and 4-Star characters - Rotations for removed 3 and 4-Star characters - A new vault containing older 3 and 4-Star characters

As you can tell, these ideas are sparse in detail, as the team is still figuring out which could work the best. Once we have more information to provide, we'll be sure to update the community.

The list is even the order I'd prefer! A separate store or a rotation, I feel like would restore progression. A vault just makes me think of event vaults, where there are 60+ 2* and 3 4*. I don't feel like that would be any kind of solution at all.

There would have to be a substantial increase in 4* representation for me to be at all on board with that.

But a new token containing older 3* with a chance for older 4*? Rotations in existing tokens of a few older characters alongside the newer? Completely fine with either of those.

Moon Roach

Brigby wrote:

sinnerjfl wrote:

Soooooo... its been 2 weeks since the bonus heroes & vaulting were implemented. Could we get an answer to the feedback now?

Sure thing! We just finished up another meeting with the development team earlier today, so I'd be happy to provide some insight.

The intent behind Bonus Heroes, and the removal of older 3 and 4-Star characters from packs, was to reduce pack dilution and provide a way for players to acquire newer characters faster. Having said that though, the team recognizes the community concern regarding older 3 and 4-Star progression, and has decided to start exploring several options to try and alleviate those concerns.

Keep in mind that this is still exploration, and nothing is 100% guaranteed, but here are some of the ideas that the team is investigating:

- A new store containing older 3 and 4-Star characters - Rotations for removed 3 and 4-Star characters - A new vault containing older 3 and 4-Star characters

As you can tell, these ideas are sparse in detail, as the team is still figuring out which could work the best. Once we have more information to provide, we'll be sure to update the community.

Any chance you can maybe put this in its own thread, or update the OP of the original thread with the contents? There's a great danger that this will be missed once it gets off the last page.

Killians8

When I think of store, it sounds like I have to spend money which is not the player I am. I would not be in favor of that if it meant all my previous efforts to build my roster based on old rules now means very little for undercovered characters.

If a store means new tokens to be earned like all other tokens or a reasonable amount or resources based on the payout, I can see that being a decent option.

Many of us who want to continue playing are clearly quite injured by this jarring change. I have faith the adjustment will be appreciated because it just doesn't make good business sense to piss off a large contingent of the player base.

Also I've heard a lot of talk about them catering to the whales and while this obviously makes some sense, the free to play players also generate revenue by looking at ads during Shield Intercepts (when they don't fail). I'm sure they get paid something based on number of ads run which we are a part of. Less of us also means less business.

*Practicing acceptance and patience in the moment*

Killians

TetsujinOni

Wumpushunter wrote:

GrimSkald wrote:

Here's something to all the people complaining - take a good hard look at how much this will actually affect you. You notice the bad more than the good, so going by feel and your gut can be extremely deceptive. If you've tracked information, go back and review it. If you don't track the information, compare your roster now to two weeks ago, to four weeks ago.

That's what I did, and I'm a lot more calm about the whole thing. I can't offer you too much advice on your own situation, as it probably isn't the same as mine, but I'll give you this for free - unless you draw a lot of LTs it probably won't have a huge impact on you.

My roster was coming along nicely, I had added lots of characters and covers. No champions though in any tier and what did I see in pvp? 95% of the opponents were using vaulted characters. So don't tell me I like it now, don't tell it does effect me much, it ruins the game for me playing at a disadvantage. No amount of time or reflection will bring me a roster of old 4* champions.

So it's still very bad for me and will be until I can fight with the same amazing characters you probably have at level 270 and not weak new characters because the company wants more cash.

Day Zero (through Year 1 post-change) problem. Of course the existing champs are predominantly the ones which are oldest.... they've had the most opportunities to be drawn.

There's plenty of analysis of what the game economy pressures suggest you do. None of it says that pursuing specific old characters is a necessary or helpful step in a no-champs roster working on getting champs now.

In point of fact, your complaints about "weak new characters" are also hard to credit when compared with the analysis of the new 4*s.

Peggy is probably rotating in a month, but is one of the top 4*s in the game of any release cohort, even when not boosted.
Wasp after her rebuild is a solid performer when boosted.
Jess and Cage are niche players. Cage's release so far from a 4ist may make for an uncomfortable rotation schedule, but they're both interesting designs.
Gwenpool is amazing board control and awful defense, with an interesting sorta-nuke.
Blade is the first of two AP-management-mechanic designs that are challenging to play but not "weak".
Agent Venom is the other AP-management mechanic character. He's actually pretty fast and strong because he has a damage-generating passive that lets you dip extra on strikes.
Medusa: Absolutely amazing (vice her bugs this release).
Carol Danvers: Also amazing, solid nuke with an interesting two-color combo power that also cooperates with other characters.
Riri: OK, not a huge fan but provides enemy team control which is going to be lacking in the 4* tier in tokens starting in 3 weeks.
Mordo: eh. Interesting but not great design.
Coulson: absolutely amazing, I totally missed on paper how strong his suite of AP manipulation was behind the seeming similarities to Kingpin's design.

mega ghost

Brigby wrote:

Keep in mind that this is still exploration, and nothing is 100% guaranteed, but here are some of the ideas that the team is investigating:

- A new store containing older 3 and 4-Star characters - Rotations for removed 3 and 4-Star characters - A new vault containing older 3 and 4-Star characters

As you can tell, these ideas are sparse in detail, as the team is still figuring out which could work the best. Once we have more information to provide, we'll be sure to update the community.

Thanks so much for the update! I totally appreciate that there is an issue of dilution, and vaulting and bonus heroes are absolutely a solution to it.... as long as we still have a regular means of access to the older characters that have been placed in said vault! These were my original suggestions when this was announced:

mega ghost wrote:

By and large I'm happy with this, but would argue that some new option needs to exist that allows for RNG pulls of older 4* characters and vaulted 3* characters. My recommendation:

Make the Latest Legends tokens focus on the 12 new 4* characters (so for 25 CP you have the 85% chance of pulling one of them), and the Classic Legends focus on the the older 4* characters (for 20 CP you can pull any older 4*, but the newest 12 will be excluded from this pack.)

Similarly, offer two Heroic token stores now: there will still only be one Heroic token, but we can opt to pull it from either of the stores, one which has odds for the 12 newest 4* characters and 20 selected 3* characters, and one that has odds for all the rest and that excludes the newer/selected characters in the other Heroic store.

To simplify things, Elite tokens could just focus on the 20 selected 3* characters (which, as I noted in a previous post, I hope is a rotating list.)

Avalancher

Brigby and all the D3 team, thank you.

There are thousands of very happy players that love this game. We love what you are doing to keep it fresh and exciting, and we will roll with any changes and keep filling our days with big fun because of you.

New vaults would be awesome, but even though I have burned quite a few duplicate new 4 star covers because of the changes I am very grateful for the chance to spend my workday playing such a satisfying game with my favorite Marvel myths. Please keep doing what you are doing, we love it.

Dragon_Nexus

I agree with the above that the idea behind the change was a solid one. I used to get frustrated rolling the dice for a newer 4* that was under covered and go "Oh...another Hulkbuster...that's fun, I guess."

But the new system only helps those like me, loser vets with well established rosters. This is a half way fix. It helps *me* but doesn't help anyone not in my circumstance. This is why consultation with the fanbase might have been useful. We'd have so quickly pointed out the flaw to the system and suggested the fix. Honestly, creating something like a 15CP token for "Legendary Vintage" or something that only has 4*s not in the current roster (cheap enough for more frequent dipping into so newer players can catch up a bit quicker).

Not sure how you'd do 3*s aside from not vaulting them at all. These days 3*s are quite a lot more attainable than they were before we had legendary tokens and such.

Stax the Foyer

Brigby wrote:

Keep in mind that this is still exploration, and nothing is 100% guaranteed, but here are some of the ideas that the team is investigating:

- A new store containing older 3 and 4-Star characters - Rotations for removed 3 and 4-Star characters - A new vault containing older 3 and 4-Star characters

As you can tell, these ideas are sparse in detail, as the team is still figuring out which could work the best. Once we have more information to provide, we'll be sure to update the community.

One thing to keep in mind is that only one of these (the rotations) appears to allow acquisition of older characters from earned tokens. Something that only allows purchase of (chances for) those older characters would not be an appropriate solution.

If, say, you could choose what store to use your earned tokens in (Classic Heroic or Latest Heroic), maybe through awarding an intermediate token, that would be good.

Any solution to dilution which merely shifts odds around within substantially similar percentages doesn't really address dilution. (That's fundamentally why the vaulting solution was so problematic) The 5% effective increase (and somewhat better than that for Heroic tokens) doesn't come close to matching the effect of so many 4* releases over the past year. A substantial increase to bonus hero rates would actually address dilution and put us in a position that, while different from the prior state, is good enough overall to justify some variance.

Merrick

"and has decided to start exploring several options to try and alleviate those concerns"

So - it's been two weeks and the playerbase hasn't let this go, so you are only now starting to explore options.

- Rotations for removed 3 and 4-Star characters
This is a great option. One we have been asking for since the implementation of vaulting.

- A new store containing older 3 and 4-Star characters
- A new vault containing older 3 and 4-Star characters
These are horrible options. Another money grab. Oh you want to finish your old characters, pay for them.

DFiPL

Merrick wrote:

"and has decided to start exploring several options to try and alleviate those concerns"

So - it's been two weeks and the playerbase hasn't let this go, so you are only now starting to explore options.

- Rotations for removed 3 and 4-Star characters
This is a great option. One we have been asking for since the implementation of vaulting.

- A new store containing older 3 and 4-Star characters
- A new vault containing older 3 and 4-Star characters
These are horrible options. Another money grab. Oh you want to finish your old characters, pay for them.

I agree with you regarding the vault (because I suspect the vault would be diluted by things which aren't those 3* and 4*), but more details are necessary before we could say the same of "a new store," and right now we don't have those details. We don't know how those pulls would be made available. Would they use HP? CP? An entirely new currency?

Would pulls be available by means other than spending?

Etc. Let's let 'em decide IF that's the way they want to go, and then get more than the barest of bones before we sharpen the torchforks.

Daredevil217

Merrick wrote:

"and has decided to start exploring several options to try and alleviate those concerns"

So - it's been two weeks and the playerbase hasn't let this go, so you are only now starting to explore options.

- Rotations for removed 3 and 4-Star characters
This is a great option. One we have been asking for since the implementation of vaulting.

- A new store containing older 3 and 4-Star characters
- A new vault containing older 3 and 4-Star characters
These are horrible options. Another money grab. Oh you want to finish your old characters, pay for them.

I'm not sold on those options either.

- I'm not keen on buying (I'm free to play so it doesn't help me much).

- I also don't want to spend resources for a chance at older 4s diluted with older 3s. If that's the case I'll still pull from classics to get the guaranteed 4*.

The great thing about the classic/latest is you are guaranteed to pull a 4. Can't we get something like that at a reduced rate with older 4s?? I don't think it's overly complicated but I'm not a developer either.

WelcomeDeath

Merrick wrote:

"and has decided to start exploring several options to try and alleviate those concerns"

So - it's been two weeks and the playerbase hasn't let this go, so you are only now starting to explore options.

- Rotations for removed 3 and 4-Star characters
This is a great option. One we have been asking for since the implementation of vaulting.

- A new store containing older 3 and 4-Star characters
- A new vault containing older 3 and 4-Star characters
These are horrible options. Another money grab. Oh you want to finish your old characters, pay for them.

I dont think its fair to assume they are only now undergoing the process of discussing ideas, especially given the fact that they said in the main thread they were discussing things days after BH were releas ed. Also, a store doesnt necessarily mean its a pay store only. LTs are a store, elites are a store, standards are a store, only one of these is purchaseable, and even then not directly. Furthermore, tokens for every store are earnable in some way, so i dont see any reason to assume why that wouldnt be the case here.
That being said, the vault sounds like itd be like the current limited vaults that are run...which are buy only...which would be bad. Also, i know some like the idea, but i dont think rotating who is and isnt vaulted is a good idea. It was annoying when it was done with 3* before, it will still be annoying. Really the best solution is still a rate increase for bonus heroes in the LT store, and maybe a 3*/4* token thats added to progression...maybe at 800 in pvp...move the 3* to 575...move the 10 cp to 1050? Or 900 and move the 4* to 1050. And somewhere in pve as well. But that should have happened a while ago, regardless of vaulting.
Regardless, these things take some time, especially since its a joint venture between two companies: the devs (demiurge) and the producers (d3). Things have to work for both sides. If you dont want to pull tokens til theres a revision, then don't. But attacking the reds when they communicate is not really conducive to further communication.

Magic

Thank you Brigby for the feedback. It probably is not what I was hoping to hear (think daily 4* DDQ and you will know what I want) but I am hoping that the team will come up with a solution.

Actually implementing any decent solution (of your list or outside of it) would be a sign of one important thing - that the developers listen to the community feedback.

Crowl

mega ghost wrote:

For all I know, the next time I receive a bonus hero it will go to waste as well, as it's not a reliable system of getting a final cover for a character with one or more abilities already at 5. At this rate it could be an entire year before this system let's me champ three or more of these 4* characters who were so close before vaulting.

Your best solution to this issue remains the same as it was prior to vaulting and that is to bite the bullet and buy that last cover, if you had been in a position to do so when you got that bonus hero, you would have even been able to get the LT reward too. There are a great many things wrong with vaulting, but your issue seems more like you are practically trying to sabotage yourself.

Crowl

Brigby wrote:

sinnerjfl wrote:

Soooooo... its been 2 weeks since the bonus heroes & vaulting were implemented. Could we get an answer to the feedback now?

Sure thing! We just finished up another meeting with the development team earlier today, so I'd be happy to provide some insight.

The intent behind Bonus Heroes, and the removal of older 3 and 4-Star characters from packs, was to reduce pack dilution and provide a way for players to acquire newer characters faster. Having said that though, the team recognizes the community concern regarding older 3 and 4-Star progression, and has decided to start exploring several options to try and alleviate those concerns.

Keep in mind that this is still exploration, and nothing is 100% guaranteed, but here are some of the ideas that the team is investigating:

- A new store containing older 3 and 4-Star characters - Rotations for removed 3 and 4-Star characters - A new vault containing older 3 and 4-Star characters

As you can tell, these ideas are sparse in detail, as the team is still figuring out which could work the best. Once we have more information to provide, we'll be sure to update the community.

How about giving us a quick fix to the solution while you try to implement something else e.g. keep the new LTs as they are but add in a second version of each that has the full roster of 4*s (including the new ones), if people prefer the new system they will keep pulling the truncated tokens and for those who want to develop a broad roster they can still do that as well.

Keep all other tokens as they are since they won't contribute a significant amount of 4*s for most people, so might as well give a slight increase in the chances of pulling one of the newer characters.

Dilution has been an issue for a long time and championing gave us a means to minimise the impact of it, so there was simply no need to have been so heavy-handed when it came to trying to 'fix' the issue as it mostly just looks like people were progressing too readily thanks to champion rewards and you have acted to curtail that progress.

GurlBYE

Brigby wrote:

sinnerjfl wrote:

Soooooo... its been 2 weeks since the bonus heroes & vaulting were implemented. Could we get an answer to the feedback now?

Sure thing! We just finished up another meeting with the development team earlier today, so I'd be happy to provide some insight.

The intent behind Bonus Heroes, and the removal of older 3 and 4-Star characters from packs, was to reduce pack dilution and provide a way for players to acquire newer characters faster. Having said that though, the team recognizes the community concern regarding older 3 and 4-Star progression, and has decided to start exploring several options to try and alleviate those concerns.

Keep in mind that this is still exploration, and nothing is 100% guaranteed, but here are some of the ideas that the team is investigating:

- A new store containing older 3 and 4-Star characters - Rotations for removed 3 and 4-Star characters - A new vault containing older 3 and 4-Star characters

As you can tell, these ideas are sparse in detail, as the team is still figuring out which could work the best. Once we have more information to provide, we'll be sure to update the community.

Appreciated.

Hopefully the idea that maybe 4's shouldn't continue to hold the same rarity as now as their numbers surpass the 3 star tier, which we can receive daily, while not having a similar system.

firethorne

Brigby, thanks as always for the communication. It is greatly appreciated. I would like to address what you've said, and I will try to remain respectful. That said, I'm still extremely critical of this change, and very suspicious of the propositions that are being brought to the table here.

Brigby wrote:

Sure thing! We just finished up another meeting with the development team earlier today, so I'd be happy to provide some insight.

The intent behind Bonus Heroes, and the removal of older 3 and 4-Star characters from packs, was to reduce pack dilution and provide a way for players to acquire newer characters faster. Having said that though, the team recognizes the community concern regarding older 3 and 4-Star progression, and has decided to start exploring several options to try and alleviate those concerns.

Let's be frank here. "Concern" is an understatement. There is still a fair amount of genuine anger at this change. For perspective, this change led me to let my VIP expire. Now, there were other issues at play there. Unusable cover draws, especially in the 5* arena, and dilution of old 5*'s (Which by some inconceivable inconsistency, this vaulting did not attempt to fix.) was primary among them. But, make no mistake, this was the proverbial straw that broke the camel's back. Now, I think you could win me back. At its core, I still like many things about it. But, you have to make something that is unequivocally better. Not something that tries to take advantage of players desperate for that final cover, or half-baked contrivance that ultimately doesn't really fix the problems.

I understand that dilution was a problem, but I still don't understand how you though dramatically cutting the acquisition of anyone but the latest 12 characters was a solution that didn't have more significant problems than the one you were solving. From DDQ to required characters, your game is heavily geared to being able to having everyone. Anyway, there's 50 pages explaining that in the other thread, so to the topic at hand, the proposals.

Keep in mind that this is still exploration, and nothing is 100% guaranteed, but here are some of the ideas that the team is investigating:

- Rotations for removed 3 and 4-Star characters

I think you'll need to be a lot more specific on exactly what you're talking about here. Rotations into what, exactly? I think rotating them into something like DDQ, for example, where you can earn one set one per day, would be taken extremely well. It is a proven success for the 3* transition, and I think that would alleviate many of the problems this change created. But, I get the feeling that isn't what you mean by any stretch of the imagination, and we're talking about rotation into yet another RNG dependent draw system.

- A new store containing older 3 and 4-Star characters
- A new vault containing older 3 and 4-Star characters
As you can tell, these ideas are sparse in detail, as the team is still figuring out which could work the best. Once we have more information to provide, we'll be sure to update the community.

I'll be honest, this seems like a money grab. It seems like a way to further exploit players in a bad situation. And as for vaults especially, again, why do you think this is a good option? You're doing this already, and the response seems lukewarm at best. Every single time you make one, there's been a discussion about them. The Venom one had a 101 against to 2 for poll (Venom: viewtopic.php?f=7&t=57977). Admittedly, Venom is a weak character. But, trying to charge us 3600 HP per week for a single champion level, be they weak or strong, is simply insane. This isn't a solution to the problem. It doesn't do anything to truly address why the people are mad at you locking away the old 4*'s. Taking away an option then replacing it with a grossly overpriced option isn't doing anyone any favors.

A CHAMPION LEVEL IS NOT WORTH $30 OF REAL WORLD MONEY.
ONE THIRTEENTH OF A CHARACTER IS NOT WORTH $30 OF REAL WORLD MONEY.
SPENDING 3600 OF AN IN GAME CURRENCY FOR A CHAMPION REWARD PAYING YOU 50 OF THAT SAME CURRENCY IS NOT WORTH IT.

You get that, don't you? I get the feeling none of these even bring us to parity with what we had before, let alone make the game better in any way.

WalrusGooner

DFiPL wrote:

Merrick wrote:

"and has decided to start exploring several options to try and alleviate those concerns"

So - it's been two weeks and the playerbase hasn't let this go, so you are only now starting to explore options.

- Rotations for removed 3 and 4-Star characters
This is a great option. One we have been asking for since the implementation of vaulting.

- A new store containing older 3 and 4-Star characters
- A new vault containing older 3 and 4-Star characters
These are horrible options. Another money grab. Oh you want to finish your old characters, pay for them.

I agree with you regarding the vault (because I suspect the vault would be diluted by things which aren't those 3* and 4*), but more details are necessary before we could say the same of "a new store," and right now we don't have those details. We don't know how those pulls would be made available. Would they use HP? CP? An entirely new currency?

Would pulls be available by means other than spending?

Etc. Let's let 'em decide IF that's the way they want to go, and then get more than the barest of bones before we sharpen the torchforks.

If we're going to run with the "old 3/4 store" idea, best bet seems to me to make it similiar to Elites, with a rarity between Heroics and LTs, and maybe add an option to purchase for 5-10 CP.

Vaults are a bad idea. Rotations would be an improvement over the current arrangments, but I'd prefer a store along the lines of my suggestion above.