Brigby and Cthulu - when we will get feedback?

Omega Red

Feedback will be provided only if and when changes are made. Expect more than that and you'll only be more frustrated.

I reckon they're trying to come up with a formula that offers all the characters as before without affecting the actual objectives they had in mind (slowing down general progression).

alphabeta

I'm reminded of that bit of Zero Dark Thirty where Jessica Chastain writes the number of days they've known what the right thing to do was but bureaucratic inertia stopped them till eventually far later than it should of they do the thing you knew they were going to do in the end anyway.

Unvault our loved older 4* - day 11

Roguewookie26

bbigler wrote:

mohio wrote:

In summary - I don't think they decided to do vaulting to deliberately keep people from getting level 370 characters, I think they did it to level the playing field on new vs. old characters so people would play with them more than they might otherwise.

Just my 2 cents here: I think they implemented vaulting as a direct result of player surveys showing that most players would not recommend this game because new players will be years behind current players (due to slow 4* progression), which would cause the player base to get smaller and smaller over time, thus decreasing their revenue and eventually bringing the end of the game.

Thats a good thought. However they already lost a chunk of the player base with the scaling and timer changes. And they are losing a rather large chunk over this issue it seems. Does no good to stop the game from ending in a few years if they kill it now.

And if they switch to scl based scaling, all thats going to do is prevent some people from being able to fight and get those progression rewards. The scl based complaints are mostly from lower lvl scl players who get high end players dropping down for an easier time. Much better to just limit the scl to players in an appropriate range. There is no reason a person with champed 5*s should be in scl 4 or 5.

As for knee jerk reactions. The whole reason we are in this position is because of that. As usual they made major changes with no warning. They barely announced it before it was forced on us. If it takes them months to fix it, the people who have quit during that time might have figured out they dont want to come back no matter what. And who can blame them? This has become the normal for this game. They need to do something and do it fast. Even if its just putting us back to what we had before while they decide what to change and then reimplement later. And maybe instead of new groundbreaking things how about you just give the players something they pretty much universally want like colorless covers just to build some goodwill and earn some player trust back. The reason people dont want to recommend this game isnt because new players cant catch up. It because they dont want to subject their friends to a game where everyone constantly feels like they are getting **** by the dev team.

astrp3

kyo28 wrote:

GrimSkald wrote:

Here's the thing, while vaulting has aroused a lot of vitriol, I think the assumption that it is wildly unpopular may be a bit misplaced.
I made a poll last week asking how people felt about the vaulting:

There are also various problems with the "the vast majority of people who post on the forums oppose X, therefore X is wildly unpopular" formula.
Aside from questions about whether it's even true (many have posted in support of it, as has been reflected in polls like the one you did), there are issues with relying on posts on a message board to gauge overall opinion. A few of the biggest:


1) The users that post on these boards do not necessarily represent the MPQ gaming population as a whole. In fact, I think it's quite likely that the two groups are are very different. People who take the trouble to read boards and post on them are probably much more hardcore than MPQ gamers overall and thus may react much more negatively to changes like this than casual gamers (who may or may not make up the bulk of players overall). Whether all this is true, I don't know. Nor do I know if casual players are down on the change, if they even noticed the change, what % of players they are, and how much they support the game compared to forum posters.

2) D3 may have other sources of feedback besides the forums (e-mail, surveys, whales, etc.) Again, I don't know if they do and to what extent or whether such feedback differs from the opinions here.

3) People who strongly oppose a change may be MUCH more likely to post than those who support it or are neutral. This is why voluntary polls are generally considered somewhat worthless, as are solicited polls that don't have a VERY high response rate (I think that anything under 80 or 90% is considered questionable, but that's based on a vague memory and may be wrong). In an example I cited in another post, Ann Landers once asked her readers with children if they had it all to do over again, would they have kids. Something like 71% said they wouldn't. Other, more scientifically designed polls, however, showed that something like 90% still WOULD have had kids if they did it all over again. So the differences can be huge.

alphabeta

astrp3 wrote:

kyo28 wrote:

GrimSkald wrote:

Here's the thing, while vaulting has aroused a lot of vitriol, I think the assumption that it is wildly unpopular may be a bit misplaced.
I made a poll last week asking how people felt about the vaulting:

There are also various problems with the "the vast majority of people who post on the forums oppose X, therefore X is wildly unpopular" formula.
Aside from questions about whether it's even true (many have posted in support of it, as has been reflected in polls like the one you did), there are issues with relying on posts on a message board to gauge overall opinion. A few of the biggest:


1) The users that post on these boards do not necessarily represent the MPQ gaming population as a whole. In fact, I think it's quite likely that the two groups are are very different. People who take the trouble to read boards and post on them are probably much more hardcore than MPQ gamers overall and thus may react much more negatively to changes like this than casual gamers (who may or may not make up the bulk of players overall). Whether all this is true, I don't know. Nor do I know if casual players are down on the change, if they even noticed the change, what % of players they are, and how much they support the game compared to forum posters.

You say you don't know how much casual players support the game vs those engaged enough to be on the forum.

The single highest thing that drives anyone's engagement with something is spending there money on it - that's not the hardest inference to make and therefore any forum poll will likely represent well the views of those who financially support the game (often times substantially financially support)

Now that shouldn't drive game decisions in an of itself but when you have that high a concentration of unhappiness from that group of players it should be something that gets taken very seriously by the game developers and quickly - so far we've been told they are taking it seriously but no evidence they are being quick about it

astrp3

alphabeta wrote:

The single highest thing that drives anyone's engagement with something is spending there money on it - that's not the hardest inference to make and therefore any forum poll will likely represent well the views of those who financially support the game (often times substantially financially support)

I agree that people on the forums probably support the game more (at least on a per capita basis and probably overall) than casual players, but without access to the data, I don't know, I'm just making an inference.

But even casual players might support the game via generating ad revenue (don't know the breakdowns on pay-to-play vs ad revenue for D3 and don't imagine they'll be sharing).

Even assuming that players on the forums do represent a greater proportion of paying customers, however, it is still not clear that the players on the forums are overwhelmingly against the change. Has anyone actually counted (rather than relying on subjective memory, possible confirmation bias etc.) the number of posters for an against it on the forums - not to mention the problems I mentioned with self-reported data and complaints (the Ann Landers example). If I were to go just by the complaints on the forum, I'd think "Gee, this game must really suck. Most of the features they add gets more complaints than praise." (thought part of that impression may be due to confirmation bias of sorts on my part and the fact that I remember complaints more than praise).

Plus, there's always the oft-mentioned possibility that the whales actually love this feature or even that it was designed just for them (to suppress competition from 4* rosters, allow them to cover up new 4*s etc.).I'm not saying this the case (especially given the lack of hard evidence) but let's say it is. And let's say that the whales actually spend more overall on the game than the dissatisfied people on the forums. If you think that those who support the game financially should be given more attention than does who don't, should the opinions of whales then be given more weight than those of the dissatisfied people on the forums?

Again, I'm not saying they should ignore the concerns that have been raised here or the anger (many of which I share), but am just trying to counter claims that virtually everyone is against the change, that D3 completely ignores concerns raised on the forums etc., and the claims that result from D3's doing so (e.g. the suggestion that D3 "hates the players").

Magic

Thank God It's Monday - the first day after a weekend. The developers had a week to think about the feedback they will pass on to the trustful fans and the community managers Brigby and Cthulu will surely give us this feedback today. I am so excited I could not wait with this bump till the US morning.

Tony_Foot

I don't get the eagerness. I don't like vaulted heroes but I'd rather they took their time to get it right. No use knee jerk rushing in a change. Patience.

Magic

Tony Foot wrote:

I don't get the eagerness. I don't like vaulted heroes but I'd rather they took their time to get it right. No use knee jerk rushing in a change. Patience.

You are missing the point. I am not asking for a quick fix of the situation. I am asking for the development team (via community managers if needed or directly) would respond to the current crisis. To say we hear your feedback and we will look into it is not enough. We are not beta-testers. A lot of us are paying real money to play this game.

The issue is - it's been a week. The outrage is going away a bit. People are accepting the changes - regardless if they are good or bad. Some maybe decided to quit or stop paying but it goes away.

And it should't go away just like that. Nobody, nowhere should ignore being treated like this.

So again - I am asking for feedback not immediate fix. Moreover - I am willing to accept the current situation as the permanent one (so no fix) if it's properly explained.

GrimSkald

Magic wrote:

Tony Foot wrote:

I don't get the eagerness. I don't like vaulted heroes but I'd rather they took their time to get it right. No use knee jerk rushing in a change. Patience.

You are missing the point. I am not asking for a quick fix of the situation. I am asking for the development team (via community managers if needed or directly) would respond to the current crisis. To say we hear your feedback and we will look into it is not enough. We are not beta-testers. A lot of us are paying real money to play this game.

The issue is - it's been a week. The outrage is going away a bit. People are accepting the changes - regardless if they are good or bad. Some maybe decided to quit or stop paying but it goes away.

And it should't go away just like that. Nobody, nowhere should ignore being treated like this.

So again - I am asking for feedback not immediate fix. Moreover - I am willing to accept the current situation as the permanent one (so no fix) if it's properly explained.

Here's the thing, though, you see it as a "crisis," I see it as a "major change to the game that holds back a portion I like," another person may see it as a "minor change to the game that has both good and bad," while someone else probably sees it as overwhelming positive.

I took a good hard look at where my 4* covers came from and found not nearly as many came from LTs as I thought did, and an almost laughably low number came from heroic and event tokens. While I know this will slow down my 4* Roster advancement of the older characters (which is a big downside, to be sure,) it will speed up my newer 4*s dramatically, and once I catch up on the Iso in a few weeks it will be a lot more tolerable. I'm actually willing to give it some time - I think they'll need to make at least minor changes to the vaulting mechanic, but I feel fairly sure it adds to the overall health of the game - even as it is.

As far as a response goes - Brigby said that the devs are looking into it. That's a response. Unfortunately, when it comes to a business, they are extremely reluctant to issue solid statements that can then be used against them, so that's all we are likely to get until a change is made.

GrumpySmurf1002

Magic wrote:

Thank God It's Monday - the first day after a weekend. The developers had a week to think about the feedback they will pass on to the trustful fans and the community managers Brigby and Cthulu will surely give us this feedback today. I am so excited I could not wait with this bump till the US morning.

If your take away from Brigby's response to this thread was that you were getting an answer today, you're apt to be extremely disappointed.

The next response will likely be tweaks to the current system, and that could be months from now.

whycantwesyncpc

I don't think it would be a bad idea for the people behind the game to pull their heads out of their rears and actually talk to us for once. I know I am literally hanging on with this game just to see what the response is. If vaulting stays I am gone. All I know is that I am playing way less and in Enemy of the State last week I ended up higher than I ever have in a PVE event, and I didn't even bother with the first few days of the event. To me that is telling. I really just want an idea of what is going on. If they are going to fix this mess I'll be happy to wait it out if it will take a while. If not then I'd rather know now and not waste any more time on this game.

NewMcG

whycantwesyncpc wrote:

I don't think it would be a bad idea for the people behind the game to pull their heads out of their rears and actually talk to us for once. I know I am literally hanging on with this game just to see what the response is. If vaulting stays I am gone. All I know is that I am playing way less and in Enemy of the State last week I ended up higher than I ever have in a PVE event, and I didn't even bother with the first few days of the event. To me that is telling. I really just want an idea of what is going on. If they are going to fix this mess I'll be happy to wait it out if it will take a while. If not then I'd rather know now and not waste any more time on this game.

It isn't telling. You joined late. That's the upside of joining late. You play less and get higher placement.

Also, this has to be 100+ posts you've now made to complain about this one thing. How many threats to quit playing will you make, while continuing to play, and still think they should be taken seriously?

whycantwesyncpc

New McG wrote:

whycantwesyncpc wrote:

I don't think it would be a bad idea for the people behind the game to pull their heads out of their rears and actually talk to us for once. I know I am literally hanging on with this game just to see what the response is. If vaulting stays I am gone. All I know is that I am playing way less and in Enemy of the State last week I ended up higher than I ever have in a PVE event, and I didn't even bother with the first few days of the event. To me that is telling. I really just want an idea of what is going on. If they are going to fix this mess I'll be happy to wait it out if it will take a while. If not then I'd rather know now and not waste any more time on this game.

It isn't telling. You joined late. That's the upside of joining late. You play less and get higher placement.

Also, this has to be 100+ posts you've now made to complain about this one thing. How many threats to quit playing will you make, while continuing to play, and still think they should be taken seriously?

I'm waiting for them to give the results of feedback. I am barely playing. The minimum to stay in my alliance. Not much more than DDQ. Didn't even bother with ultron. As I said many times I am waiting to see what the final answer will be. I am not threatening anything, I am gone if I don't like what the response is. I am trying to be patient and wait for the answer because I don't want to give up the game. Notice I haven't posted anything about it for almost a week now. I am done complaining. They will either fix it or I will go. I just wish they would announce what they are going to do so I can stop sitting in limbo.

Crnch73

whycantwesyncpc wrote:

I'm waiting for them to give the results of feedback. I am barely playing. The minimum to stay in my alliance. Not much more than DDQ. Didn't even bother with ultron. As I said many times I am waiting to see what the final answer will be. I am not threatening anything, I am gone if I don't like what the response is. I am trying to be patient and wait for the answer because I don't want to give up the game. Notice I haven't posted anything about it for almost a week now. I am done complaining. They will either fix it or I will go. I just wish they would announce what they are going to do so I can stop sitting in limbo.

I feel like I am in a similar position. I am going about my business as usual, hoping to have a positive change rather than a lateral move. I feel like if they do come up with a good change and I just sat still the whole time waiting, that is basically falling behind. If they come back and say this change is the new way, I do fear my interest in the game will only wane. I will not just up and quit, but the level of fun it gives me will drop for sure. If the game becomes less fun, the only natural course of action is to play less and support it less, which is unfortunate.

I don't feel the same as you (and many others) in the sense that I don't feel like we got screwed royally. But I do agree that this wasn't the best showing. If we had known what was coming, we may have done things differently. Personally, I wouldn't have spent so much time and ISO on some older 4's. I champed Flaptain mostly just because I had 3 waiting on the vine and I missed out on a 900-point-reward in PVP on RHulk, who I was hoping to champ before he was boosted. This was during the Valentines day/Deadpool PVP fiasco. Had I known this was coming down the pipe, I woulda just sold those Flaptain covers and never thought twice. It's another example of poor judgement in development and even poorer "heads-up" announcement. As I have said in the past, this is more-or-less just a change to the game... they just marketed it as a HUGE quality of life improvement, which fell short. Back to the drawing board, of course. I hope we can get more feedback from Brigby or Cthulu soon, even if it just an update to say "Yep, they are still coming up with a fix. Stay tuned!"

I don't expect a change to be done by now, but just an update to let us know they are still working on it. We get updates about the next 4* to enter the game so quickly, an update here would also be great. Without an update post like that, it starts to feel like it is being swept under the rug. I truly believe (and hope) that this isn't true, but I can understand why people begin to feel that way.

Bowgentle

Folks, there will not be a "fix", just as there was no "fix" for true healing.

There may be small tweaks after a while, but from the beginning the developers have always operated like this: work on unannounced changes, implement, watch how metrics change, then maybe tweak.

Don't wait for any statements - they're not comIng.

Enjoy playing? Keep on playing, adapt to the sea change.

Don't enjoy playing? Move on.

Santore

whycantwesyncpc wrote:

I don't think it would be a bad idea for the people behind the game to pull their heads out of their rears and actually talk to us for once. I know I am literally hanging on with this game just to see what the response is. If vaulting stays I am gone. All I know is that I am playing way less and in Enemy of the State last week I ended up higher than I ever have in a PVE event, and I didn't even bother with the first few days of the event. To me that is telling. I really just want an idea of what is going on. If they are going to fix this mess I'll be happy to wait it out if it will take a while. If not then I'd rather know now and not waste any more time on this game.

I see your taking some heat from this post. Truth is I am in the same boat as you but I am not even playing DDQ and quit my Alliance I was Commander of. I am literally checking the forums every 3/4 days to see if there are any decent changes coming with vaulting system.

People say "your complaining, if your quitting just quit". Well, few of us check forums have quit. Some don't even check forums so are voiceless.

Wumpushunter

Started this great game in February, quit in March because of the unfair treatment of new players (vaulting great characters away, pushing new worse characters) Two weeks of feedback and discussion and I just feel like I will never get to play this game.

GrimSkald

Here's something to all the people complaining - take a good hard look at how much this will actually affect you. You notice the bad more than the good, so going by feel and your gut can be extremely deceptive. If you've tracked information, go back and review it. If you don't track the information, compare your roster now to two weeks ago, to four weeks ago.

That's what I did, and I'm a lot more calm about the whole thing. I can't offer you too much advice on your own situation, as it probably isn't the same as mine, but I'll give you this for free - unless you draw a lot of LTs it probably won't have a huge impact on you.

Daredevil217

GrimSkald wrote:

Here's something to all the people complaining - take a good hard look at how much this will actually affect you. You notice the bad more than the good, so going by feel and your gut can be extremely deceptive. If you've tracked information, go back and review it. If you don't track the information, compare your roster now to two weeks ago, to four weeks ago.

That's what I did, and I'm a lot more calm about the whole thing. I can't offer you too much advice on your own situation, as it probably isn't the same as mine, but I'll give you this for free - unless you draw a lot of LTs it probably won't have a huge impact on you.

I think "if you want to quit, quit" is not at all helpful. The developers say they are listening to feedback and taking it into consideration as they work on a fix. Being silent gives them the feedback that vaulting the majority of the characters isn't bad for the game. The people who are limiting their game time, not renewing their VIPs and yet STILL complaining on here are sending the same messages to the developers, just through different channels. Good for them.

P.S. I'm in the camp that would like more feedback/info from the developers on this as well, but I'm definitely not expecting or demanding it. It would just be nice is all.