*** Magneto (Classic) ***

Unknown

Spoit wrote:

(I seriously think even a frictional cost of 1 AP would 'fix' the infinite combo blue, taking it to 7 would be more than enough to make people consider respeccing. Red would need a lot more of a rework though)

Agreed. I don't understand why the devs don't implement this change now, as a test run to see how it changes Mags. If the blue is still too strong, bump it by another AP up to 7AP, and run it again. Iterative changes like this would allow them to arrive at a balanced character fairly quickly without worrying about ruining him by going too far with any changes.

Unknown

At this point, if they touch his purple they need to look at about 3-4 other characters to nerf. His purple is fine as is. 10 ap for around 5k @max w/4 points in purple is fine. Make it 5 and the realistic max is still only around 6500-7000. Bp and thor both do considerably more damage with easier to handle requirements and only minor ap increases.

His blue is only good on offense. It's pretty weak on def and if anything it will mess your team up by wasting helpful blue. Yea, if the machine grabs 15+ blue it can be annoying, but that works for any color getting 15 ap and a way to spend it really. While I wouldn't feel cheated with bump to 6, even 7 maybe, phantron is crazy with his "it needs to be 10". Hopefully his opinion has changed by now..but I doubt it (especially with falcon's blue that overrides for free every few turns...). Either way, iy would be ridiculous to make it 2 tiles for even 8-9. I'd drop mag pretty quickly if it was. That's 3 matches to use the move once....I'd ve better off with his 2** variant's purple at that point. Really, it always should have ended @6, but I don't think being changed is pertinent to PvP...and therefore its not pertinent to the game imo. Pve, you get penalized for doing too well, so that's enough of a penalty imo.

Red needs to change. No ability should cost below 5. It should take 2 matches to get a move off without a little cascade luck. It's not op on its own though, if they could keep it at 2 ap and just do some coding to not take advantage of strike tiles that would be something, but then you get an issue with the cascades it causes receiving that strike tile damage. Heck, its really ob patches that makes the red a problem to be honest. Maybe dakan too to some extent. Best option is to make it cost 5-10, do some more damage, and have an equivalent tile destroy to whatever ap its given as a cost. Small version of hulk's green basically.

That Said, I doubt we see character nerfs any time soon if at all. I think they saw how bad the ramifications of nerfs were, regardless of benefiting the game, and are trying to avoid doing anything Like that again. Heck, while spidey might be op, is he really used that heavily in PvP? No..not really. On top of that they are maybe trying to push him out by not making him a reward anymore. In pve doing too well, basically playing spidey, is being thought to destroy your character lvls. So that's a nerf to spidey too. As the calls of op go, spidey>mags... But i would argue that lt and bp are better overall characters because of thier huge def advantage over those 2 characters. Dakan, of released, might become the most irritating chara ter in the game...we are about to get fury, who will bring a new lvl of "f that guy," to the game...shield bro went from garbage to mediocre overall, but arguably the best red in the game atm...and for all we know the power creep trend will continue and instead of looking at magneto as needing a nerf, we might think of him instead as one of the still relevant og 3***.

Basically, instead of wanting nerfs, ppl should see the direction the game goes first. I suspect defensive superiority will slowly have more meaning as more heavy high hp characters and 4**** are released, and a magneto or even a spidey will lose some of thier luster. Heck, looking at fury I am contemplating if magneto won't work with him and will become the odd man out ofag/pun/lt. I mean, ts probably either lt or mags and neither are characters I WANT to drop from a team. Damn, why couldn't your purple be black fury! Why!

Unknown

soenottelling wrote:

His blue is only good on offense. It's pretty weak on def and if anything it will mess your team up by wasting helpful blue. Yea, if the machine grabs 15+ blue it can be annoying, but that works for any color getting 15 ap and a way to spend it really. While I wouldn't feel cheated with bump to 6, even 7 maybe, phantron is crazy with his "it needs to be 10". Hopefully his opinion has changed by now..but I doubt it (especially with falcon's blue that overrides for free every few turns...). Either way, iy would be ridiculous to make it 2 tiles for even 8-9. I'd drop mag pretty quickly if it was. That's 3 matches to use the move once....I'd ve better off with his 2** variant's purple at that point. Really, it always should have ended @6, but I don't think being changed is pertinent to PvP...and therefore its not pertinent to the game imo. Pve, you get penalized for doing too well, so that's enough of a penalty imo.

As much as I hate to admit it I believe Phantron is correct on this one. You get two tiles that can be freely placed, to overwrite any existing tile, turning it blue and adding the protect modifier. Even 10 AP would be dirt cheap, looking at similar skills the proper cost seems to be somewhere around 12 AP to 14 AP. The current cost is only justified if placement were restricted to basic blue tiles. Yes, I know, this would destroy all the glory of guaranteed first turn wins, no matter against which opponent, just for boosting +3 blue/purple, +3 all. I'm inclined to consider this a very overdue step for balance purposes, even though I dread the consequences for my fully covered Magneto.

Unknown

Spoit wrote:

Rorex wrote:

Phantron wrote:

Magneto's blue can't be less than about 10 as long as it can overwrite any tile in the game, and even that'd be pretty cheap since it can overwrite two at once. It probably should be overwrite any basic tile all along, similar to most mass tile overwriting abilities.

I disagree. With how horrible it is on defense they would need to substantially increase the protect tile strength to make it 10 AP, 2x59 just doesn't cut it. Also keep in mind Cap can over write any tiles for a net cost of 1 or 2 AP. A cost of 6 AP is more than enough of a nerf. Doing that would drop him well out of the top 10 characters probably below Punisher.

Oh, don't even get him started on punisher.

(I seriously think even a frictional cost of 1 AP would 'fix' the infinite combo blue, taking it to 7 would be more than enough to make people consider respeccing. Red would need a lot more of a rework though)

Given who is on the nerf list, Other characters abilities that aren't on the nerf list, and how characters have been nerfed I think we can assume that the 2AP of Mag's red will be increase to 5 or 6 AP (Torch has a 5 AP ability so I assume this is the new not broken mininium AP cost). IMO his red is way more broken then his blue. Infinite turns is powerful but it requires blue to already be reasonably aligned on the board and as already said increasing the AP cost by even 1 AP will substantially change it. Up his red to 3 AP will not, it will still be the most spamable ability in the game, so hopefully they increase the cost to say 6Ap increase the damage and leave it to 5 random tiles. Mags red is quite similiar to Hulks green. Hulk's green cost 10AP but destroys 8 tiles+ and deals substantially more damage. So to use the ability, which most would agree isn't OP, and scale it down to a 6AP red should be easy enough to do.

Unknown

Moghwyn wrote:

soenottelling wrote:

His blue is only good on offense. It's pretty weak on def and if anything it will mess your team up by wasting helpful blue. Yea, if the machine grabs 15+ blue it can be annoying, but that works for any color getting 15 ap and a way to spend it really. While I wouldn't feel cheated with bump to 6, even 7 maybe, phantron is crazy with his "it needs to be 10". Hopefully his opinion has changed by now..but I doubt it (especially with falcon's blue that overrides for free every few turns...). Either way, iy would be ridiculous to make it 2 tiles for even 8-9. I'd drop mag pretty quickly if it was. That's 3 matches to use the move once....I'd ve better off with his 2** variant's purple at that point. Really, it always should have ended @6, but I don't think being changed is pertinent to PvP...and therefore its not pertinent to the game imo. Pve, you get penalized for doing too well, so that's enough of a penalty imo.

As much as I hate to admit it I believe Phantron is correct on this one. You get two tiles that can be freely placed, to overwrite any existing tile, turning it blue and adding the protect modifier. Even 10 AP would be dirt cheap, looking at similar skills the proper cost seems to be somewhere around 12 AP to 14 AP. The current cost is only justified if placement were restricted to basic blue tiles. Yes, I know, this would destroy all the glory of guaranteed first turn wins, no matter against which opponent, just for boosting +3 blue/purple, +3 all. I'm inclined to consider this a very overdue step for balance purposes, even though I dread the consequences for my fully covered Magneto.

Except 9 ap for 4-5 blue is a better ability at that point....a 2** should never have a better maove than its 3*** varient. The defensive nature of the tiles, atm, is trivial. If those tiles did 200 def each instead of ~60 then it might mean something. Are you thinking the goal is to nerf the move into being really mundane? That sounds bad to me given that mag is suppose to be some kind of hybrid damage/board control. He is enjoyable to use...probably the mist fun character in the game. Based on that alone ifant them to avoid touching his blue, as the game alreas pretty repetative without someone like mags mixing it up.

Let's look @ offense:
@8 ap a 4 match, the most common match using his blue, requires 8 ap to start, Gives you back 4 ap, and then requires you to match 4 more ap to use a second time. That means, to use twice you would need 12 ap. Offensively, that means effectively 12 ap will earn you 2 line clears, the ap that comes with that, and maybe around 800 damage without extra cascades. That's not very good for requiring 12 ap and using 8 of that ap total (down to 4 after the second use). Even assuming 5 match, which aren't as common as some make it seem, the value doesn't get too much better...now requiring 11 ap for 2 uses and (if 2 sets of 5 match) having 5 blue @ the end. Damage output likely being around 1500 without extra cascades beyond assuming the crit hits a 2 (makes a 3 match) match...which is what usually happens.

Defensive offense:
@8 ap its does the same thing as falcon's blue roughly. Advantages to magneto: affects 2 selected tiles and gives around a 120 point def buff. Advantages to falcon: doesn't actually use ap, both allowing you to have another character with blue ap (like fury) to use up that blue offensively or allowing for the move to be used multiple times over the course of a match while not worrying about collecting more blue...allowing you to have OTHER moves being used.

Def:
It's was bad before. Now its awful. Machine will throw it out just to make a match easier. If they nerf blue it has to come with a def buff, a large one, if its nerfed below 6-7.

It might be okay @8, but being that his blue is the main reason to use mag other than if you are using the ap broken red for strike tiles, I would swap him out for a number of other characters at that point. I don't want "okay" post nerf. Look at rag..that's what happens when insane becomes "ok." Never touched again. The move needs to still be good afterwards.

Also, comparing, say, cap's yellow is silly. His move is and always has been too expensive. If amything, it should be closer to mag's..not the other way around.

Unknown

soenottelling wrote:

It might be okay @8, but being that his blue is the main reason to use mag other than if you are using the ap broken red for strike tiles, I would swap him out for a number of other characters at that point. I don't want "okay" post nerf. Look at rag..that's what happens when insane becomes "ok." Never touched again. The move needs to still be good afterwards.

I guess we'll have to disagree on that. My experience with Mags is that his blue and red skill alone will win you about any fight at next to zero risk, due to the opponent never getting another turn once you launch the infinite AP sequence. Strike tiles will speed this up, they are just a bonus to make the fight less tedious though. His intended damage skill is purple, and a very good one at that, so even if blue and red get nerfed to oblivion he'll still have a spot on teams.

In regards to MN Mags, his purple skill is powerful but skill okay. True, you get 5 blue tiles for 9 purple AP, but those can only modify basic tiles, not special tiles. The most important difference is that the skill doesn't fuel itself, once you activate it you've exchanged your purple AP for blue AP, that's it. No infinite damage per turn because your turn never ends.

In regards to Falcon, I consider his blue passive much less valuable. It doesn't provide control over which tile gets picked, given the choice I'd rather keep that 10k sniper tile from going off than removing a minor protect tile. It also can't be saved up and spammed, which is invaluable when used correctly.

In regards to the cost, suppose there is a skill that let's me neutralize any single special tile I want to, how much AP would I be willing to pay for that? Let's make it a dirt cheap 6 AP for the sake of the argument, I'd definitely exchange most utility skills for that one, given how often I've had to suffer hard to reach harmful tiles. Upgrading that to two tiles instead of one should carry an increased cost, let's add a fair 50% for twice the value, so that's 9 AP. It doesn't only neutralize the tiles, it turns them to the color of the skill, so add another 2 AP to reflect the likely return on investment. There's also the added protect modifier which I believe is the intended purpose of the skill. It really doesn't help much right now, but a bonus has to be accounted for in some way, so another AP to the total cost, making it 12. That's still an okay deal, you can still use it to trigger a match-5 to get some okay damage, 5 blue AP, 3 random AP, very likely 2 additional random crit AP plus their damage, and any cascade resulting from that. 10 AP is borderline okay, you are likely to get more AP than you spend, 8 is outright broken.

TL;DR: Set blue skill to 10 AP and I'll happily level Mags to 141. Totally worth it for me.

Unknown

Moghwyn wrote:

Set blue skill to 10 AP and I'll happily level Mags to 141. Totally worth it for me.

Mags blue skill set to 10Ap would be garbage! The protect tiles created are **** and everyone needs to get over the "he can change special tiles", Cap can change special tiles too, for 11AP while doing almost 4k damage and get 10 of it back. So based on that, making Mags blue 10 AP is crazy! 6AP breaks the infinite turns move issue, then their is no need to make the protect tiles stronger as they are cheap. I also disagree that cMags purple is good enough to get him a spot on teams alone.

Moghwyn wrote:

That's still an okay deal, you can still use it to trigger a match-5 to get some okay damage, 5 blue AP, 3 random AP, very likely 2 additional random crit AP plus their damage, and any cascade resulting from that

Where do you get the 3 random AP from? Sure 5 blue and 2 or more from the crit but thats all. You don't make an extra match 3 guarnteed because you made a match 5. Again you need to look at other abilities that exist like for example Hood's yellow which for 15AP generates 18Ap plus what ever ensuing cascades removes special tiles and can have a return on investment, Loki's purple which for 5AP usually results in a cascade or an easy to make match 5, LT's yellow which for a cost of 12AP is going to create 9 green tiles and likely a cascade, etc.

Hell I would rather see them take away the special tiles bit then increase the cost to 10-12 AP. I would hate to see what your ideas for Spidey are!

Unknown

Rorex wrote:

Moghwyn wrote:

That's still an okay deal, you can still use it to trigger a match-5 to get some okay damage, 5 blue AP, 3 random AP, very likely 2 additional random crit AP plus their damage, and any cascade resulting from that

Where do you get the 3 random AP from? Sure 5 blue and 2 or more from the crit but thats all. You don't make an extra match 3 guarnteed because you made a match 5

A line match 5 clears the row for 3 AP

Dormammu

soenottelling wrote:

Look at rag..that's what happens when insane becomes "ok." Never touched again. The move needs to still be good afterwards.

Magneto isn't in the same class as pre-nerf Ragnarok, especially when you consider how the AI handles them on defense. The AI isn't going to perform infinite-loop match-5s with Magneto's blue, it doesn't even use the power offensively. The AI isn't going to hoard red and wait to spam it after a teammate gets some strike tiles out - in fact I rarely see the AI perform Magneto's red more than once per turn. But Ragnarok - seven hells! The AI would chain you to certain doom with his red/green cascade of death, until you were nothing but a quivering lump of crying jelly.

I feel like if they increased Magneto's blue to 6AP that's all the nerf he'd need, if he even needs a nerf.

Spoit

Techically, the AI has always been restricted to 1 cast a turn? So the only way it would chain cast rags or mags red would be if it got off a stunlock with spidey or venom (being fed purple)

over_clocked

I don't think it's true, plenty of times it uses several abilities per turn. E.g. in the Sim Patch and Loki work in tandem, Patch releases Rage, Loki uses Trickery in the same turn (they get to 9 green and 11 black at the same time I believe). AI mStorm and oBW are very good at comboing.

Spoit

The same power. If it has the AP, it can use every single power. Once

Dormammu

Spoit wrote:

The same power. If it has the AP, it can use every single power. Once

Are you sure? I could have sworn just the other day I watched 1* Storm bust her green loose twice in the same turn. But regardless, it wasn't always like this. Rangarok used to be one viscous tinykitty back in the day and was definitely not restricted to one cast per turn.

Unknown

entropic01 wrote:

Rorex wrote:

Moghwyn wrote:

That's still an okay deal, you can still use it to trigger a match-5 to get some okay damage, 5 blue AP, 3 random AP, very likely 2 additional random crit AP plus their damage, and any cascade resulting from that

Where do you get the 3 random AP from? Sure 5 blue and 2 or more from the crit but thats all. You don't make an extra match 3 guarnteed because you made a match 5

A line match 5 clears the row for 3 AP

Ahhh that makes more sense. Still of the times making match 5 with cMags. What percentage of them are going to be a line match that then results in a match 2 with crit tile. Maybe 10%. That can't be used as a baseline for the AP generation of mags ability. I can say from personal experience that your not getting 10AP from every Match 5 as is being implied.

Unknown

I believe it is limited to only 1 ability fire per turn.

mags1587

Dormammu wrote:

Spoit wrote:

The same power. If it has the AP, it can use every single power. Once

Are you sure? I could have sworn just the other day I watched 1* Storm bust her green loose twice in the same turn. But regardless, it wasn't always like this. Rangarok used to be one viscous tinykitty back in the day and was definitely not restricted to one cast per turn.

I think if the AI gets an extra turn (by a match-5) then they can use powers over again.

Unknown

Dormammu wrote:

Spoit wrote:

The same power. If it has the AP, it can use every single power. Once

Are you sure? I could have sworn just the other day I watched 1* Storm bust her green loose twice in the same turn. But regardless, it wasn't always like this. Rangarok used to be one viscous tinykitty back in the day and was definitely not restricted to one cast per turn.

He actually was restricted to 1 cast per turn (of each power) with the AI. That was the only thing that allowed him to be beat back in the OP days. Even then, it was still a horrible opponent to face!

Dormammu

sms4002 wrote:

He actually was restricted to 1 cast per turn (of each power) with the AI. That was the only thing that allowed him to be beat back in the OP days. Even then, it was still a horrible opponent to face!

You are all correct about the 1 move per power per turn. I'm considering 'one turn' to be any sequence of events that they keep playing and I don't - I just sit and watch. It was easy for Ragnarok to get match-5s, which allowed him to keep going over and over.

Spoit

5-moves don't reset it. Only full team stuns like venom

Unknown

During the 3rd round of the simulator i used my lvl 50 (3/5/1) C Mags as an OBW replacement when she was locked out. This is the first time i have really used C Mags so i am not married to any one strategy, but in my opinion the nerf is needed to help eliminate the endless loop blue provides. best way to solve that is to have his blue power spawn red or purple protect tiles. this will force people to change C Mags strategy, but you can still keep the AP cost at 5 and have it be a feeder skill like GSBW's purple. This solves the biggest issue Mags has and eliminates the argument around what the AP cost should be to prevent the loop.