New Feature: Bonus Heroes! *Updated (3/1/17)

Crnch73

I stand by my statements from earlier:

1) we need to rotate additional characters into the pool from the vault. Do it every season, every 2 weeks, every event... whatever. But placing the focus on 12 characters out of a pool of 45-ish? c'mon now

2) update heroic tokens because they are pretty worthless. If the token isn't purple, I normally feel no emotion because they're all basically 2* anyways

3) BH's need to have higher drop rates. Going on 49 LT's pulled without a single 4* BH, and I have still only gotten 2 BH's total since the release. Both were obv 3*, so yippee

In reality, the vaulting idea is actually ok, because the pool is too diluted. It just needs to rotate better, not permanently lock characters away. Tokens are mostly jokes at this point, I get the bare minimum most times. And BH's are unicorns to me, I have only heard of them basically... I don't get to see them. This hurts development and hurts champion levels

Nellobee

Hey Bright/chthulu- you guys have now had a few days to discuss the vaulting uproar. You presumably have either made the determination to keep vaulting for the time being or to make changes to the current system.
So, which is it?

Warbringa

I appreciate that the development team appears to be looking into options with regards to vaulting and has provided communication.

alphabeta

Unfortunately I think unstickying this thread says it all - they are listening to how unhappy people are and quietly hoping we will ignore fact they have just moved on

So glad my VIP comes up for renewal tomorrow - small I know but only practical step to show how I won't be supporting the game going forward till they reverse the decision

Crowl

nickaraxnos wrote:

Crowl wrote:

Please can people stop making suggestions for a token that excludes the latest 12 4*, that is a horrible plan as even people who might prefer to prioritise the older ones still need to collect the newer ones too.

You will be able to have them when they ll stop being new. We cant have everything. If you want them from the start you gonna pay more with increase chances to get free covers. Where is the problem?

There is simply no need to include such a restriction on new 4* characters at this point if the life of this game, if for some bizarre reason somebody was trying to build up the value of a more expensive token then it should be done by other means such as the previously mentioned increase in bonus chance not by walling off a chunk of the 2nd tier of characters.

Nellobee

alphabeta wrote:

Unfortunately I think unstickying this thread says it all - they are listening to how unhappy people are and quietly hoping we will ignore fact they have just moved on

So glad my VIP comes up for renewal tomorrow - small I know but only practical step to show how I won't be supporting the game going forward till they reverse the decision

I hope not. But I'll sticky it via post spam if I have to-this deserves a response with more information than "we are discussing it."

GurlBYE

Stax the Foyer wrote:

Punter1 wrote:

Just listened to the Puzzle Warriors interview on the bonus heroes.

What I think is more telling is the small discussion around 5* in Vaults. They don't quite know how to put the 5* into vaults as they don't know how to price the vaults from the economics of the game as it stands. I think they're in the same boat with the vaulting.

Everything in the game has a value that's relative to other things. This is stating the obvious.

Right now, the economics of a Classic vs Latest token are that you pay a 5CP premium to get a chance at the latest 5*. The 4* pool available for 20CP was essentially consistent underneath that premium as you had the same pool in both.

They're attempting to keep that same rule in place in the current tokens. The 20CP (ignoring the 5CP latest 5* premium) you pay gets you a chance at the same pool of 4* regardless of which token you buy. As soon as that's changed then the value proposition of the 20CP is modified. If you change it to allow picking of certain 4* as has been suggested, should you be paying an additional premium CP? If you change the pool of 4*, should there be a discount on the older 4*, or should there be another premium on the latest 4*, turning a LL token into 30CP?

Playing Devils Advocate a little with this as I'm not suggesting a different solution, just posing the thoughts as to exactly why it's not as simple for them in the wider economics of the game to have a different pool of 4* offered for that flat 20CP.

One reason that the economics in the game are getting out of whack is due to the release rate of 4*s in a 5* world. From the perspective of heroic tokens and ranking rewards, 4*s are essentially being treated as though they were as valuable as they were before the release of 5*s. There have been some changes, but not anywhere near the sea change that we saw with 3*s a long time ago with the DDQ release and other changes. (Incidentally, ISO costs reflect that skewed priority as well).

That's why 4* dilution is such a big problem. Because the game structure (both rewards and ISO costs) hasn't kept up with the massive increase in 4*s, or with their relative decrease in importance. This vaulting change is a band-aid fix for the underlying issue, which is the constant release of 4* characters without supporting 4* content, treating the 4* tier like it's the top tier when everyone is looking to move past it to 5*s.

The fix to dilution should have been a significant increase in overall 4* rates, from both tokens and rewards. A big jump would be disruptive in the moment, but it would just be catching up to the present state of the game. That still needs to happen. Open up the floodgates for 4* covers the way they did with 3*s more than two years ago and let the game evolve.

^ he more or less put the spot light on whats going on to be fair.

whycantwesyncpc

Nellobee wrote:

alphabeta wrote:

Unfortunately I think unstickying this thread says it all - they are listening to how unhappy people are and quietly hoping we will ignore fact they have just moved on

So glad my VIP comes up for renewal tomorrow - small I know but only practical step to show how I won't be supporting the game going forward till they reverse the decision

I hope not. But I'll sticky it via post spam if I have to-this deserves a response with more information than "we are discussing it."

"We are discussing it" sounds better then "We are going to ignore you until everyone complaining either gives up complaining or leaves" If you've been around here for some time how much confidence do you have in them at this point?

Ayasugi-san

We can still hope, right? I mean, they walked back on vaulting before, right??

Daredevil217

Crowl wrote:

Please can people stop making suggestions for a token that excludes the latest 12 4*, that is a horrible plan as even people who might prefer to prioritise the older ones still need to collect the newer ones too.

Wait...

When it comes to older characters: one "might prefer" to get them.

When it comes to newer characters: one "needs" to get them.

That's not really accurate. Either you need them all or you don't really need any. None are more important than any others as all have events, get boosted, are essential, etc.

The thing I don't understand is you're okay with 35 characters being completely shut out of ALL tokens but are not okay with ONE set of tokens not having 12 of them?

Crowl

Daredevil217 wrote:

Crowl wrote:

Please can people stop making suggestions for a token that excludes the latest 12 4*, that is a horrible plan as even people who might prefer to prioritise the older ones still need to collect the newer ones too.

Wait...

When it comes to older characters: one "might prefer" to get them.

When it comes to newer characters: one "needs" to get them.

That's not really accurate. Either you need them all or you don't really need any. None are more important than any others as all have events, get boosted, are essential, etc.

The thing I don't understand is you're okay with 35 characters being completely shut out of ALL tokens but are not okay with ONE set of tokens not having 12 of them?

Perhaps you should read back, I am against either LT excluding the majority of characters and have offered up suggestions such as two sets of each token (one with latest 12 and a proper one with all of them), a token where you have the latest 12 plus can add as many as you like to be included in the regular draws and not merely the bonus ones, a token where you just choose the ones to exclude or a token that vaults half of the older 4*s and rotates the vaulted group each season. I honestly don't care what solution they pick just so long as they do something to reverse the horrible damage they have to the idea of developing a broad roster of champions.

In none of my posts have I voiced my support for vaulting and even in your misreading of the above post, my wording is intentional because if you have a champed character then you might prefer that one, but if you do not have a new character at all then you do need that one.

kyo28

alphabeta wrote:

Unfortunately I think unstickying this thread says it all - they are listening to how unhappy people are and quietly hoping we will ignore fact they have just moved on

So glad my VIP comes up for renewal tomorrow - small I know but only practical step to show how I won't be supporting the game going forward till they reverse the decision

This.
Two things:
1. I'm not spending a single cent on this game anymore until a fix has been thought up and I would hope that everyone unhappy with the vaulting do the same
2. I'll keep posting in this thread until a fix has been introduced (or at least more feedback) so the thread keeps popping up.

Nick441234

I'm drawing so many more 5* characters since this change, which of course to a lot of you veterans, would be a great thing. However, I dont want them. I dont want my game ruined by 5* scaling so this change is becoming more and more annoying for me.

dr tinykittylove

nick_chicane wrote:

I'm drawing so many more 5* characters since this change, which of course to a lot of you veterans, would be a great thing. However, I dont want them. I dont want my game ruined by 5* scaling so this change is becoming more and more annoying for me.

As long as you have champed 3*s or better and don't put any iso in the 5*, you'll be fine. I get plenty of entertainment using the 255 5*s in ddq or whatever.

CNash

So one week on, how have we found the Bonus Heroes / vaulting?

From my perspective, in summary: it's turned me into a token hoarder. This doesn't feel quite as fun any more.

Since the debut of the new features on 03/01, I played the game as I normally would: opening every token as it came to me and spending 20 CP on a Classic Legend as soon as I'd saved it up. For reference, I had 38 / 47 4*s rostered, three of which have 13 covers and are championed. The rest all need covers. In terms of the "golden 12", I have only 6 - a straight 50%.

What this got me was two massive problems: I pulled Medusa and Captain Marvel, neither of which I've rostered, meaning I'm now at a 2000 HP defecit. (This grew to 3000 HP due to Agent Coulson's event, but that's not relevant to this discussion.) "Silly, why not wait until you had the HP available before pulling anything?", you might ask. Well, until vaulting happened, I didn't feel that I had to. After all, roughly 80% of my 4* pulls would be something I could use. The 20% that I couldn't, I could build up the HP for over 14 days, as it was usually just a single new cover. But two, even three new covers starts to outstrip my capacity to build up HP.

Thus, I've become a token hoarder. My 4* progress has slowed to a crawl as I'm now reliant on PVE progression rewards. As long as the proportion of characters in LTs I haven't rostered is more than around 25%, I simply can't afford to open them regularly.

A secondary problem (though I'm unsure how much vaulting has contributed to it): I've got two Kamala covers in my queue, slowly withering away. This is because she's at 182, and her next cover will give me a blue Thor. My Thor, however, is at 4/2/5. I've had Thor as my only "favourite" ever since this situation occurred, but I have yet to pull her as a bonus hero. Though, out of two total LT pulls this probably isn't surprising. Since I now can't open LTs regularly, I don't see how I'm going to get these two Thor covers I'm missing.

Vhailorx

CNash wrote:

A secondary problem (though I'm unsure how much vaulting has contributed to it): I've got two Kamala covers in my queue, slowly withering away. This is because she's at 182, and her next cover will give me a blue Thor. My Thor, however, is at 4/2/5. I've had Thor as my only "favourite" ever since this situation occurred, but I have yet to pull her as a bonus hero. Though, out of two total LT pulls this probably isn't surprising. Since I now can't open LTs regularly, I don't see how I'm going to get these two Thor covers I'm missing.

You can get at least one of those Thor covers (yellow) in combined arms (assuming you can get to 900). doesn't entirely solve your problem, but it would be a start.

As for the net effect of the changes, you summarize many of the problems quite well.

Crowl

My normal routine was to keep using LT tokens and CP until I get one on a character I have max-covered and need to champion, so this hasn't changed greatly in theory, except that it cropped up far faster than under the old system as the possible rewards have been so condensed.

As far as other tokens, I tend to get 4*s from them so rarely that I open them as I get them.

Xzasxz

whycantwesyncpc wrote:

"We are discussing it" sounds better then "We are going to ignore you until everyone complaining either gives up complaining or leaves".

Yet the meaning is the same, I suppose. Yet we have to remember, that it doesn't matter, what 90%+ of playerbase want. The matter is whether big spenders like the change or not. Money talks.

Crowl

Xzasxz wrote:

whycantwesyncpc wrote:

"We are discussing it" sounds better then "We are going to ignore you until everyone complaining either gives up complaining or leaves".

Yet the meaning is the same, I suppose. Yet we have to remember, that it doesn't matter, what 90%+ of playerbase want. The matter is whether big spenders like the change or not. Money talks.

There are numerous solutions that suit both groups of players though, the simplest being to have two versions of both the classic and legends LTs for people to choose the one that suits them best, one with just the latest 12 and one with the full roster of them.

Magic

One thing I am curious about is the whales feedback. I haven't seen a comment from a known whale (eg. You Know Who) on this subject (or I didn't know they are whales). It kind of fuels my conspiracy wheels as it sounds more and more this was consulted with the big spenders. Or demanded by big spenders. Who know? Surely not us as we don't get any feedback.