New Feature: Bonus Heroes! *Updated (3/1/17)

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  • therightwaye
    therightwaye Posts: 459 Mover and Shaker
    @Brigby easy solution for dilution problem, create more vaults. It can either be oldest 12 vault for 15-25 cp. maybe 10 cp for just a 4 star vault.


    Or create vaults of teams. FF vault, XMen vault, Shield vault, Avengers vault etc etc 


  • WelcomeDeath
    WelcomeDeath Posts: 349 Mover and Shaker
    This thread is still going??????
  • Ayasugi-san
    Ayasugi-san Posts: 116 Tile Toppler
    Brigby said:
    Felonius said:
    Brigby said:
    @Daredevil217

    Apologies for the delayed response. Yes, we are still looking into other options to address the concerns surrounding vaulting, however ideas are still being discussed and investigated, which is why we may not have as much frequent feedback as it's an ongoing process.


    Thank you Brigby.  Although it's now been ~2mos and frankly I don't understand what's to discuss and investigate...  If the true reason for Vaulting is really just to take care of complaints that players don't have soon enough access to new characters, then it's easy, put the Latest 12 4* in the Latest Legendary Tokens with the 3 latest 5*.  Put all the rest in the Classic Legendary Tokens.  4-5* Vaulting Issue, sorted.  The end.

    Do likewise with Heroic tokens, make a Latest (which has only latest 3 and 4*) and Classic (Everybodyelse) Heroic tokens.  As far as I'm concerned, event tokens can be "latest" collection only (with event-related heroes thrown in).


    Easy solution.  Does NOT take 2 months to figure this out.  Seriously.

    The issue with putting all the other characters into the Classic Legendary Tokens is the original issue of dilution. There would need to be a solution for that prior to potentially implementing that option, lest each character release would resume exacerbating that issue further. 
    Then why aren't 5*s vaulted, too? And why aren't more 3*s vaulted so the odds of getting a specific one from elites/heroics is the same as getting a specific 4* from legendaries?
  • smkspy
    smkspy Posts: 2,024 Chairperson of the Boards
    DarthDeVo said:
    gravel said:
    Has anyone else had a recent dry spell with bonus heroes?  I received one guaranteed one from a three star from a standard token today, but I don't think I've received more than a couple others in the past 3 weeks or more.
    I thought it was just me. It seems like the 3* BH I used to get from Elites has dried up. That was my most reliable avenue for pulling them. 

    I had been fairly satisfied with the rate I was pulling at that tier, anyway. I've still only gotten two 4*s. They may as well not exist for me. Sadly, it seems the 3* tier is headed that direction. 

    Same here. In general, the number of 3s from elite tokens has dried up and BH rates from those are now rarer 3s too. I thought it was confirmation bias at first, but am seeing more and more reports of it. Something is definitely up.
  • broll
    broll Posts: 4,732 Chairperson of the Boards
    Brigby said:
    Felonius said:
    Brigby said:
    @Daredevil217

    Apologies for the delayed response. Yes, we are still looking into other options to address the concerns surrounding vaulting, however ideas are still being discussed and investigated, which is why we may not have as much frequent feedback as it's an ongoing process.


    Thank you Brigby.  Although it's now been ~2mos and frankly I don't understand what's to discuss and investigate...  If the true reason for Vaulting is really just to take care of complaints that players don't have soon enough access to new characters, then it's easy, put the Latest 12 4* in the Latest Legendary Tokens with the 3 latest 5*.  Put all the rest in the Classic Legendary Tokens.  4-5* Vaulting Issue, sorted.  The end.

    Do likewise with Heroic tokens, make a Latest (which has only latest 3 and 4*) and Classic (Everybodyelse) Heroic tokens.  As far as I'm concerned, event tokens can be "latest" collection only (with event-related heroes thrown in).


    Easy solution.  Does NOT take 2 months to figure this out.  Seriously.

    The issue with putting all the other characters into the Classic Legendary Tokens is the original issue of dilution. There would need to be a solution for that prior to potentially implementing that option, lest each character release would resume exacerbating that issue further.
    Even so this would be a fantastic intermediate step while you guys decide on something more permanent. Going back to ~30 4* in the rotation would still take about a years worth of dilution. Also the obvious easy next step IMO is to create more than 2 legends stores.

    Right now many of feel the 'fix' for dilution was worse than the original problem itself.  Just Bonus Heroes without any vaulting would have been better than what we got.
  • killerkoala
    killerkoala Posts: 1,185 Chairperson of the Boards
    "colorless covers"   is a must to fix 6th+ covers that happens with any token store
  • MissChinch
    MissChinch Posts: 509 Critical Contributor
    sh81 said:
    Dilution is/was certainly an issue. One that will only be compounded by the crazy release schedule of new characters.

    Personally, I dont think a "This vault is the 12 new characters" and "this vault is all the rest" option actually addresses that problem.

    I could go fishing in the second vault endlessly and still not progress the characters I really want to.

    However, if the "this vault is all the rest" option was actually "this vault is a selection from all the rest" I would be able to target old covers in a meaningful way.

    This vault need only rotate through the possible choices every week or two, and I would again have the power to develop my roster in a more targeted way.


    Its a matter of degree...  how targeted will they let us get?...  progress clearly worked when it was open to the whole pool, but it took time, and that will get worse with additions, however at 1 new character every 2-3 weeks we're talking a LONG time before it becomes much different (no use in re-stating the math, its implications clearly cant be agreed upon in an internet forum anyway)  It boils down to how easy demi and d3 will let targeting 4*s get...


    (Personally I believe the impact to dilution is overstated, with vaulting a set of covers that I'd get with 75% of my pulls dropped down to 5% and only if I use my BH exclusively on vaulted characters...  we could go about 2 years at the current rate before the size of the 4* tier doubles, which would cut rates in half, not trounce them from 75% to 5%.  I believe we'll have progressed past the 4* tier by then, onto focusing on 5*s and maybe 6*s, save for the occasional bone they throw to what is now the 3* tier.)



    A much bigger beef I've got re: vaulting is that they're messing with the currency (CP) I need to progress with 5*s.  Its not in the current focus of what we've got Brigby responding to now so I didn't want to muddy the waters with it. 

    The short version is that 5*s are the hardest tier to progress with, they share a resource with 4* roster development...  If you're being efficient about it (and ignoring any assumed resource acquisition benefits from going deep in 4*s) you use your scarce resource in the most efficient way to well cover the rarest tier...  Which amounts to pulling from latest legends. 

    Pre vaulting I could hoard and know that when I pull from latest I'd be pulling from a set of 4*s that I own 90% of, and most covers wouldn't go to waste...  Post vaulting, hoarding (which is necessary to concentrate pulls on the subset of the 5* tier in LLs) means that when I pull I'll be pulling from a pool where I have zero 4* champions and have made very little progress on, I either accept burning a ton of 4* covers for iso, or I end up having to hoard all the more to be able to champ a pile of 4*s in addition to whatever 5*s I get without the benefit of reaping champ rewards of the 4*s I do have.

    Furthermore pre-vaulting I'd be comfortable in leveling and championing the 4*s I get through rewards and heroic pulls, knowing that when the time came to pull my hoard they would benefit me via champion rewards...  now that little bit of progress I was making while hoarding would only be a detriment to me cause as its an iso sink having absolutely no possibility of helping me when I go to pull the hoard.


    To be clear, I'm in favor of classics opening up to either all 4*s or just the set of vaulted 4*s, as I think its a step in the right direction, it does not help me out with the issue I outlined above, but it could cause me to rethink my priorities if a better solution looks like a pipe dream.

  • smkspy
    smkspy Posts: 2,024 Chairperson of the Boards
    Brigby said:
    @Daredevil217

    Apologies for the delayed response. Yes, we are still looking into other options to address the concerns surrounding vaulting, however ideas are still being discussed and investigated, which is why we may not have as much frequent feedback as it's an ongoing process.
    Here's the problem with always using the company line. Your bosses solution to dilution was to embrace over-saturation. In just two months, with steady gameplay (575 pvp and progression for pve) a player can so well cover the latest 12 that they are forced into hoarding their cp and LTs. 

    Previously hoarding was embraced mainly to acquire 5 stars and the odd instance of not having enough HP for roster spots. Players like me that kept up spots never needed to hoard.  Now I'm forced into hoarding because I have the twelve so well covered that I can't pull tokens until I'm ready to champ. 

    It was nice being able to cover all those so quickly, but the novelty has now worn off and I have to apply a tactic that I had previously never been felt forced to use before. 
  • MissChinch
    MissChinch Posts: 509 Critical Contributor

    @smkspy I have to imagine forced hoarding like that is so much less fun than voluntary hoarding for targeting 5*s, which is already not that fun...

    What you mention is a big reason why I think the numbers on BH pull rates are going to make covering vaulted characters seem easier than it actually will be in practice...  people forced to hoard because of the vault mechanics will NOT be pulling all the tokens that would take advantage of the bonus hero mechanism of covering their vaulted chars...

    Good luck, I'd imagine your iso rate will slowly overcome the release frequency and you can get back to pulling, but might take a few months...  you could always put off championing the ones that are soon to leave.

  • Brigby
    Brigby ADMINISTRATORS Posts: 7,757 Site Admin
    @Daredevil217

    Please allow me to play [insert-religious-entity]'s advocate for a moment here:

    One of the player demographics that may have been negatively affected by this change was 3-Star transitioners. Wouldn't Vintage Heroic Tokens have given them the chance at acquiring the Classic 3-Stars they need, while feeding the 2-Star Champed characters they have for more resources?

    Ok. Out of character now. I can totally understand your frustration coming from your perspective. Based on my analysis, the demographic that was unfortunately most impacted negatively was the group of players that were in the middle of 4-Star roster building when this change occurred. Rest assured that I have already passed along this feedback to the developers.

    When it comes to a specific solution, I'm afraid I'm not a developer, so my feedback is limited. I would imagine that they are taking the necessary precautions of analyzing the short-term and long-term effects of all the presented ideas, and determining which iteration would be the best choice. (Not to mention development time needed to implement one)

    If I hear of any updates to this process, I will do my best to inform the community promptly.
  • smkspy
    smkspy Posts: 2,024 Chairperson of the Boards
    @MissChinch

    Yeah, hoarding is entirely foreign to me. I'm not a 5 star chaser, though this might turn me into one being forced into a play style I've never used. 

    Biggest downside to not champ those about to leave tokens is that it does take them so long to leave tokens now. Take spiderwoman for instance. I've got her max covered, but she isn't leaving until after the next season. So after I champ medusa within the next week, I'll be hoarding for a full season. 

    And can't remember if it'll be blade or cage that leaves along side her (gwenpool), I'll either have to pull to finish off blade  (11 covers) or continue to hoard until the 4 star pool has enough fresh characters. 

    That also means no heroic pulls as I wouldn't want to snag one of those exiting 4s. 1st world puzzle quest to be sure, but I can't imagine this what vaulting was meant to achieve.
  • killerkoala
    killerkoala Posts: 1,185 Chairperson of the Boards
    Brigby said:
    @Daredevil217

    Please allow me to play [insert-religious-entity]'s advocate for a moment here:

    One of the player demographics that may have been negatively affected by this change was 3-Star transitioners. Wouldn't Vintage Heroic Tokens have given them the chance at acquiring the Classic 3-Stars they need, while feeding the 2-Star Champed characters they have for more resources?

    Ok. Out of character now. I can totally understand your frustration coming from your perspective. Based on my analysis, the demographic that was unfortunately most impacted negatively was the group of players that were in the middle of 4-Star roster building when this change occurred. Rest assured that I have already passed along this feedback to the developers.

    When it comes to a specific solution, I'm afraid I'm not a developer, so my feedback is limited. I would imagine that they are taking the necessary precautions of analyzing the short-term and long-term effects of all the presented ideas, and determining which iteration would be the best choice. (Not to mention development time needed to implement one)

    If I hear of any updates to this process, I will do my best to inform the community promptly.


    btw it's RNGesus for gambing folks,

    There should be a pure 3/4 token with no 2*'s.  3* getting isn't too much of a problem, we get them placing well in both pve and pvp, progression, and also DDQ. it's the 4* acquisition that hurts the most because u would need to place extremely well, top5 in pvp and t10 in pve. and if you target a 4* in BH, you run the risk of getting a 6th color and wasting that BH.


    Colorless covers or way to exchange 6th+ colors would help a lot with wasted token pulls.

  • n25philly
    n25philly Posts: 426 Mover and Shaker
    Brigby said:
    @Daredevil217

    Please allow me to play [insert-religious-entity]'s advocate for a moment here:

    One of the player demographics that may have been negatively affected by this change was 3-Star transitioners. Wouldn't Vintage Heroic Tokens have given them the chance at acquiring the Classic 3-Stars they need, while feeding the 2-Star Champed characters they have for more resources?

    Ok. Out of character now. I can totally understand your frustration coming from your perspective. Based on my analysis, the demographic that was unfortunately most impacted negatively was the group of players that were in the middle of 4-Star roster building when this change occurred. Rest assured that I have already passed along this feedback to the developers.

    When it comes to a specific solution, I'm afraid I'm not a developer, so my feedback is limited. I would imagine that they are taking the necessary precautions of analyzing the short-term and long-term effects of all the presented ideas, and determining which iteration would be the best choice. (Not to mention development time needed to implement one)

    If I hear of any updates to this process, I will do my best to inform the community promptly.
    Vintage heroics probably would have worked if it was as a secondary heroic token.  Make it permanent, allow heroic tokens to pull from either pile and have them be the same cost.  It was making it a token that you had to win, could only get a very limited amount, etc that made it a problem.  By doing that you severely limited the draws that ultimately for most gave 2*'s that are aquired elsewhere easy enough.  Why needs a vintage heroic if you don't pull any of the vintage heroes?
  • MissChinch
    MissChinch Posts: 509 Critical Contributor

    @smkspy

    I draw the line with hoarding heroics... if I get a cover for a 4* I have to burn, I just end up eating that one... its frustrating enough not pulling any LTs or CP (and avoiding some taco vaults)

    I certainly don't envy Brigby his position...  but I'm not particularly reassured at this point.  Attempts to address this issue aren't being excruciatingly vetted as evidenced by the vintage store attempt, yet progress seems excruciatingly slow and or secretive.

  • MissChinch
    MissChinch Posts: 509 Critical Contributor
    edited April 2017

    What was taken away with vaulting was a way to spend CP efficiently to best cover 5*s (LL) that provided an equal chance for all 4*s to be drawn, as well as the acquisition rate of well over half the 3*s that feed us specific 4* covers. 

    The fact that our 3*s are going to become very lopsided, effectively penalizing the use of over half of them gets little attention, possibly because the situation with the 4*s is so bad.  3* dilution was simply not a problem for a lot of people, and wouldn't be with the multiple progression rewards for new 3*s and the high pull rate of 3*s coupled with the bonus hero mechanism... truly a case of something that was not broke being fixed coupled with changing too many variables at once to get a good indication of specific impacts.... 

    Bonus heroes coupled with the frequency of 3* draws would be a big boon to new players wanting to target a specific hero to be their first champion, instead vaulting is going to heavily favor the new person picking those heroes currently not vaulted.


    At any rate, I'd welcome any mechanism that replaces what was lost:

    - Most efficient way to spend CP to cover 5*s well also allowing for the pull of every 4* (with the same odds).

    - Heroic tokens being used to draw all the 3*s

    additional options to focus however d3 or demi things we should be focusing are great (I may take advantage of some of them at some times depending on how its arranged) but I don't see the sense in taking away what we had in order to provide it...


    (if the reason is to improve their business model, hopefully fostering more HP purchases, then being up front about that would answer a lot of questions...  it would be a better answer than we've received thus far and actually be more understandable...  it wouldn't be my favorite answer but it would provide clarity and be justifiable)

  • smkspy
    smkspy Posts: 2,024 Chairperson of the Boards
    @MissChinch

    yeah, I love the daily heroic deal. I always pull that and historically heroics for me have finished off any 4 stars both pre and post vaulting. In fact, I've gotten more 4 star BHS from heroics than any LT pull.

    And I'm so weak. Pulled from my measly 40 cp hoard and got my 4th yellow oml. Had 20 cp left and pulled my 12th blade.

    That puts my total to every one maxed covered or champed  except:

    Blade 3/5/4
    Coulson 4/5/2
    Riri  5/2/4
    Mordo 4/3/2
    Danny 2/2/1

    That's a total of 12 hopeful covers to pull and one two characters where any cover is useful.

    I envy the people that can hoard without effort.
  • MissChinch
    MissChinch Posts: 509 Critical Contributor

    @smkspy

    I feel your pain, I don't have an impressive hoard as far as hoards go (~2 mil iso and ~100LL pulls) , but I think it gets easier once you have a bit saved up...  I wish I could say that your situation gets easier, maybe in the long term it will, but it looks like the going is gonna get more rough in the short term with that list you've got...  :(

    Sorry, wish I knew a way around it...   best of luck.


  • DarthDeVo
    DarthDeVo Posts: 2,178 Chairperson of the Boards
    Brigby said:

    I can totally understand your frustration coming from your perspective. Based on my analysis, the demographic that was unfortunately most impacted negatively was the group of players that were in the middle of 4-Star roster building when this change occurred. Rest assured that I have already passed along this feedback to the developers.
    I wasn't so much in the middle as much as I was juuuust beginning to start the transition. I had FINALLY rostered all the available 4*s when vaulting hit. Pretty much every LT pull was useful and I felt like I was making progress. 

    I will admit that vaulting has had a few upsides. I've champed Medusa, Bl4de, Spider-Woman, and Wasp. C4rol is on deck. Would that have happened without vaulting? No way. But it's happened at the expense of much of the rest of my 4* roster.

    I don't know what the definitive answer is, but more options certainly wouldn't hurt. And sorry, not the Vintage Heroic type, with the 2* dilution. I won't reiterate all the ideas mentioned here and elsewhere, but plenty of good ideas have already been discussed. 

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