*** Daken (Classic) ***

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  • NorthernPolarityNorthernPolarity Posts: 3,531 Chairperson of the Boards
    Rorex wrote:
    Did some statisical analysis of 2*Daken and I would say at max lvl 3* Daken should be getting two 88 strength strike tiles per green match. Not 100% because I don't have a base level, 1 cover Daken to use in the analysis. So if someone does please post the strike tile strength and I will re-evaluate. Numbers seem reasonable in comparision to Patch. 3 green matches to use Patch and creates 6 tiles with 148 strength for allies and opponents (888). 3 matches with Daken will get six 88 strength tiles (528). So less damage but no strike tiles for the opponent. Hopefully the blue is something good.

    88 strength strike tiles would be completely overpowered. Comparing strike tile strength to Patch is a huge fallacy: the whole point of Patch is that he has much stronger strike tiles at the cost of it being a symmetrical effect of giving your opponents the tiles as well. Daken clearly does not suffer this drawback, so a better comparison is Punisher, which is 300 for 8 green AP. Even making the ability as powerful as that (say 2 50 damage strike tiles for each green match) might be too much as well simply because you can actually use the green AP afterwards on another character, so its not actually costing you 9 green AP to use. However, given Daken's drawback of (probably) having all passives and potentially being red starved due to needing 2 strike tiles to get the same power as one of punishers tiles, it's probably reasonable for him to have an ability of this power level. That being said, if he does get released with strike tiles that do 50+ damage, then he's going to be ubiquitous in all team compositions from now on, and thats a pretty clear sign of the character being OP.
  • Phantron wrote:
    Daken 2* currently generates 2 104 strike tiles at level 195. Scale this to level 141 you get 2X75 strike tiles. And people are thinking he should generate 2X86 strike tiles at 141 as a 3*? Keep in mind that 2* always outstripped 3* in offensive abilities in comparable cases.

    I would agree with you except that the recent Lazy Cap and Lazy Thor are better than the scaled 2* versions. So yes generally 2* scaled are better then 3* of the same lvl but Gold Characters are the expection. My analysis was substaintially more detialed then scaling back a buffed 2* Daken and then saying that 2*s scaled are better then 3*s. A lot of it was based on changes in Caps protect tiles between 2* and 3* gold verions. Again its not conclusive but time will tell if less then 2x75 is right or might estimation of 2X88.
  • That being said, if he does get released with strike tiles that do 50+ damage, then he's going to be ubiquitous in all team compositions from now on, and thats a pretty clear sign of the character being OP.

    Name a single Gold Character that isn't overpowered and used in almost all teams! Right now you like 80% likely to see Lazy Cap or Lazy Thor.
  • NorthernPolarityNorthernPolarity Posts: 3,531 Chairperson of the Boards
    Rorex wrote:
    That being said, if he does get released with strike tiles that do 50+ damage, then he's going to be ubiquitous in all team compositions from now on, and thats a pretty clear sign of the character being OP.

    Name a single Gold Character that isn't overpowered and used in almost all teams! Right now you like 80% likely to see Lazy Cap or Lazy Thor.

    For the 2 Lazy characters currently released, LazyThor is clearly OP, but I think that LazyCap is at a pretty good power level right now (similar to Psylocke). The only reason why you would see lazycap right now in more team comps is because newer players were able to get him to max covers from the recent events fairly easily, and because of how he's a popular character, not because of him being clearly better than most of the other characters in the game. If you think about 3* team compositions, I think that Cap fits in far fewer ones than a LazyThor would. I'd be happy if Daken was more along the lines of LazyCap's power level, but its look like he's going to be closer to LazyThor instead.
  • Lazy Cap and lazy Thor does damage far beyond any comparable 3* as well. They're not fair comparison because even if you say these guys are P2W guys intended at generate revenues, I don't see why you'd start assuming Daken is the same way. He might end up as a P2W character, but I'd hope not for the good of the game.

    Even 2X50 strike tiles would be a top tier passive. At 3 green matches that's basically same as Judgment, except you don't have to be the one making the green matches. The biggest upside of Phoermone Rage is that you get the benefit regardless of who makes the green match. Even an obviously overpowered ability like Call the Storm gains no benefit if the opponent makes the green match instead of you.

    Just from playing against Daken it should be obvious that Daken is quite capable of killing people by simply matching tiles. If you get 5 hits out of each Phermone Rage for 2X50 strike tiles, then you can say Phermone Rage is equivalent as 'Whenever anyone makes a green match, they take 500 damage'. Note that if that only applied to you, it'd still be pretty good passive (it'd be 9g for 1500 damage, which isn't great for green but serviceable), but it works when the other side makes the match too!
  • NorthernPolarityNorthernPolarity Posts: 3,531 Chairperson of the Boards
    Phantron wrote:
    Lazy Cap and lazy Thor does damage far beyond any comparable 3* as well. They're not fair comparison because even if you say these guys are P2W guys intended at generate revenues, I don't see why you'd start assuming Daken is the same way. He might end up as a P2W character, but I'd hope not for the good of the game.

    Even 2X50 strike tiles would be a top tier passive. At 3 green matches that's basically same as Judgment, except you don't have to be the one making the green matches. The biggest upside of Phoermone Rage is that you get the benefit regardless of who makes the green match. Even an obviously overpowered ability like Call the Storm gains no benefit if the opponent makes the green match instead of you.

    Just from playing against Daken it should be obvious that Daken is quite capable of killing people by simply matching tiles. If you get 5 hits out of each Phermone Rage for 2X50 strike tiles, then you can say Phermone Rage is equivalent as 'Whenever anyone makes a green match, they take 500 damage'. Note that if that only applied to you, it'd still be pretty good passive (it'd be 9g for 1500 damage, which isn't great for green but serviceable), but it works when the other side makes the match too!

    Another benefit to pheromone rage is that it doesn't actually use the green ap that you get. If you have another green AP user, the ability is essentially free, which is even crazier. I'm not sure what a balanced version of 3* Daken would even look like: 2* Daken gives 2 x 25 strike tiles, so you can't make it only 2 x 40 or something like that since people would complain that it doesn't scale enough. It seems like an ability like this is just very hard to balance in general: maybe if blue is a weak ability and it did 2 x 45 strike tiles or something along those lines, but that's clearly not what we're going to see from the devs.
  • Rorex wrote:
    That being said, if he does get released with strike tiles that do 50+ damage, then he's going to be ubiquitous in all team compositions from now on, and thats a pretty clear sign of the character being OP.

    Name a single Gold Character that isn't overpowered and used in almost all teams! Right now you like 80% likely to see Lazy Cap or Lazy Thor.

    For the 2 Lazy characters currently released, LazyThor is clearly OP, but I think that LazyCap is at a pretty good power level right now (similar to Psylocke). The only reason why you would see lazycap right now in more team comps is because newer players were able to get him to max covers from the recent events fairly easily, and because of how he's a popular character, not because of him being clearly better than most of the other characters in the game. If you think about 3* team compositions, I think that Cap fits in far fewer ones than a LazyThor would. I'd be happy if Daken was more along the lines of LazyCap's power level, but its look like he's going to be closer to LazyThor instead.

    Lazy Cap is balanced in the way Magneto is balanced. Due to limitation of AI, Magneto is also fairly humble on defense, but that doesn't mean Magneto is a balanced character overall. 75% of the game involves offense (50% in PvP, 100% in PvE) so it's still a pretty big deal, though PvE victims don't get to complaint about your team being too cheap, so its overall impact is probably less from the player's point of view.

    At any rate since Daken's power seems mostly based on passives (and if his blue is actually powerful that'd just make him all the more powerful) it should be impossible to use him incorrectly, so he'd fall into the same category as lazy Thor. I think lazy Thor is actually weaker than lazy Cap, but there's no way to play lazy Thor incorrectly for the AI, while lazy Cap can be played hilariously poorly by the AI.

  • Another benefit to pheromone rage is that it doesn't actually use the green ap that you get. If you have another green AP user, the ability is essentially free, which is even crazier. I'm not sure what a balanced version of 3* Daken would even look like: 2* Daken gives 2 x 25 strike tiles, so you can't make it only 2 x 40 or something like that since people would complain that it doesn't scale enough. It seems like an ability like this is just very hard to balance in general: maybe if blue is a weak ability and it did 2 x 45 strike tiles or something along those lines, but that's clearly not what we're going to see from the devs.

    Good point. My calculation is if Daken is the only green person on your team, even though people with great green powers can be easily found.

    Daken is 2X38 at level 69 for his 2* version.

    But Daken, like Modern Storm, is one of those character whose ability cannot scale with level by design. He's given ability that are far too powerful which is why he has a very low level cap, similar to Modern Storm, so you can't say 'why does this scale so poorly compared to 2* Daken?' because 2* Daken's ability isn't meant to scale at all. That's why he's an absolute terror when you face him in PvE, and while that's acceptable for PvE (some guy has to be the boss enemy), that wouldn't work for PvP.
  • NorthernPolarityNorthernPolarity Posts: 3,531 Chairperson of the Boards
    Phantron wrote:
    Rorex wrote:
    That being said, if he does get released with strike tiles that do 50+ damage, then he's going to be ubiquitous in all team compositions from now on, and thats a pretty clear sign of the character being OP.

    Name a single Gold Character that isn't overpowered and used in almost all teams! Right now you like 80% likely to see Lazy Cap or Lazy Thor.

    For the 2 Lazy characters currently released, LazyThor is clearly OP, but I think that LazyCap is at a pretty good power level right now (similar to Psylocke). The only reason why you would see lazycap right now in more team comps is because newer players were able to get him to max covers from the recent events fairly easily, and because of how he's a popular character, not because of him being clearly better than most of the other characters in the game. If you think about 3* team compositions, I think that Cap fits in far fewer ones than a LazyThor would. I'd be happy if Daken was more along the lines of LazyCap's power level, but its look like he's going to be closer to LazyThor instead.

    Lazy Cap is balanced in the way Magneto is balanced. Due to limitation of AI, Magneto is also fairly humble on defense, but that doesn't mean Magneto is a balanced character overall. 75% of the game involves offense (50% in PvP, 100% in PvE) so it's still a pretty big deal, though PvE victims don't get to complaint about your team being too cheap, so its overall impact is probably less from the player's point of view.

    At any rate since Daken's power seems mostly based on passives (and if his blue is actually powerful that'd just make him all the more powerful) it should be impossible to use him incorrectly, so he'd fall into the same category as lazy Thor. I think lazy Thor is actually weaker than lazy Cap, but there's no way to play lazy Thor incorrectly for the AI, while lazy Cap can be played hilariously poorly by the AI.

    I don't agree: after playing with a boosted 120 LazyCap in the last PvP, he just feels really slow compared to even some of the more balanced, faster characters out there like Punisher and Psylocke. Something I've been noticing (thanks to mischiefmakers comment) is that it takes significantly more turns to get 12AP than it does to get 6 or 9AP: it doesn't scale linearly but rather more like lands in MTG, where 6 mana is a lot more than 5 mana, and 7 mana is a lot lot more than 6. This means that even though Cap's red theoretically has a lot more damage output, what happens in practice is that by the time you can recur cap's red, a character like psylocke would have already dealt maybe 2-3x that amount of damage with 2 casts of her red. The games just seem to end before I'm able to get 2+ casts of Cap's red. I also didn't realize that cap's blue only makes the defense tile after the countdown finishes, which makes the skill a lot worse than I thought, since by the time you get 12 blue AP and wait 3 turns, the match is probably almost over as well. Cap obviously does well in matches that last a very long time, but when you have C. Mags Patch or even BP or Psylocke/Punisher to close games out very quickly, that just isn't a common occurence.
  • I don't agree: after playing with a boosted 120 LazyCap in the last PvP, he just feels really slow compared to even some of the more balanced, faster characters out there like Punisher and Psylocke. Something I've been noticing (thanks to mischiefmakers comment) is that it takes significantly more turns to get 12AP than it does to get 6 or 9AP: it doesn't scale linearly but rather more like lands in MTG, where 6 mana is a lot more than 5 mana, and 7 mana is a lot lot more than 6. This means that even though Cap's red theoretically has a lot more damage output, what happens in practice is that by the time you can recur cap's red, a character like psylocke would have already dealt maybe 2-3x that amount of damage with 2 casts of her red. The games just seem to end before I'm able to get 2+ casts of Cap's red. I also didn't realize that cap's blue only makes the defense tile after the countdown finishes, which makes the skill a lot worse than I thought, since by the time you get 12 blue AP and wait 3 turns, the match is probably almost over as well. Cap obviously does well in matches that last a very long time, but when you have C. Mags Patch or even BP or Psylocke/Punisher to close games out very quickly, that just isn't a common occurence.

    While your 4th and 5th match of a given color generally takes a considerably longer than linear time compared to the first 3, it's still a matter of AP. If a game ended before you hit 12 red AP, then you can only do one Retribution or one Psychic Knife. So if the game ended before that, then red clearly played no real impact, so yes having a faster red helps some but it's not a significant factor.

    HIs blue is weak in the sense that both Spiderman and Magneto can put away any game with 12 blue AP so of course there's no real reason to setup the Peacemakers when either of those two guys are pretty much guaranteed win with the same number of blue AP. But I'd say that's more because Spiderman/Magneto are too good, not because his blue is too weak. Blue has a rather high bar to be compared, as it's basically 10 blue AP = wins the game right now.

    There are probably enough cheap ways to win the game right now that Captain isn't the biggest problem, but you shouldn't say 'well X is broken and Y isn't as broken as X, so Y is okay.' In the long run neither X nor Y should be broken. Even Magneto isn't as broken as Spiderman, who single handedly caused several player hated mechanisms to be invented in PvE, but Magneto is still pretty broken overall. In a balanced world, neither character should be as powerful as they are. Currently we can live with Magneto being overpowered as long as Spiderman is around (because he's even worse), but that should not be the model of balance.
  • IM40. He's a great battery for Shieldbro's Red / Blue.

    If you're lucky, you match Red at the same time. Even Hulk doesn't last long of you can fire two Shieldbro Reds in quick succession.
  • NorthernPolarityNorthernPolarity Posts: 3,531 Chairperson of the Boards
    Phantron wrote:
    I don't agree: after playing with a boosted 120 LazyCap in the last PvP, he just feels really slow compared to even some of the more balanced, faster characters out there like Punisher and Psylocke. Something I've been noticing (thanks to mischiefmakers comment) is that it takes significantly more turns to get 12AP than it does to get 6 or 9AP: it doesn't scale linearly but rather more like lands in MTG, where 6 mana is a lot more than 5 mana, and 7 mana is a lot lot more than 6. This means that even though Cap's red theoretically has a lot more damage output, what happens in practice is that by the time you can recur cap's red, a character like psylocke would have already dealt maybe 2-3x that amount of damage with 2 casts of her red. The games just seem to end before I'm able to get 2+ casts of Cap's red. I also didn't realize that cap's blue only makes the defense tile after the countdown finishes, which makes the skill a lot worse than I thought, since by the time you get 12 blue AP and wait 3 turns, the match is probably almost over as well. Cap obviously does well in matches that last a very long time, but when you have C. Mags Patch or even BP or Psylocke/Punisher to close games out very quickly, that just isn't a common occurence.

    While your 4th and 5th match of a given color generally takes a considerably longer than linear time compared to the first 3, it's still a matter of AP. If a game ended before you hit 12 red AP, then you can only do one Retribution or one Psychic Knife. So if the game ended before that, then red clearly played no real impact, so yes having a faster red helps some but it's not a significant factor.

    HIs blue is weak in the sense that both Spiderman and Magneto can put away any game with 12 blue AP so of course there's no real reason to setup the Peacemakers when either of those two guys are pretty much guaranteed win with the same number of blue AP. But I'd say that's more because Spiderman/Magneto are too good, not because his blue is too weak. Blue has a rather high bar to be compared, as it's basically 10 blue AP = wins the game right now.

    There are probably enough cheap ways to win the game right now that Captain isn't the biggest problem, but you shouldn't say 'well X is broken and Y isn't as broken as X, so Y is okay.' In the long run neither X nor Y should be broken. Even Magneto isn't as broken as Spiderman, who single handedly caused several player hated mechanisms to be invented in PvE, but Magneto is still pretty broken overall. In a balanced world, neither character should be as powerful as they are. Currently we can live with Magneto being overpowered as long as Spiderman is around (because he's even worse), but that should not be the model of balance.

    This really depends on what you considered to be balanced then. I'm using Punisher as my baseline for a character that is balanced in that he's strong overall and doesn't have any oppressive abilities that make him a necessity in any team composition. Based off of Punisher's level of balance, I agree that C. Mags / Spidey / LazyThor could be toned down a bit, but I'm not seeing Cap as being significantly better than Punisher (who clearly plays faster than Cap), which to me means that he doesn't warrant nerfing. One more thing against Cap: the PvP meta is currently positioned around either having a extremely fast team that can win more than you lose from getting attacked (C. Mags + Patch), or having an extremely defensive team that discourages people from attacking you/winning defensively (BP+LT). Since Cap doesn't fit either of these roles effectively, you're never going to see him as a top tier character in a PvP environment. He obviously is a lot better in PvE where you can abuse his longevity and tile clearing against high level enemies + goons, but that alone wouldn't make him top tier / broken in any way.

    Cap's blue just feels very very low impact. The ability isn't powerful enough for you to prioritize blue matching over the dps abilities you have on your team such as punishers green, caps red, etc, so you're only going to match blue when you have nothing better to match. This means that by the time you use it and wait 3 turns for the countdown, the defense tile is going to be placed late into the match and not prevent that much damage at all. A 2 turn stun every 3 turns at that point is probably meaningless as well unless you have enemy countdown tiles to kill, which means that while the move is fine, it's really nothing special compared to abilities in other colors even when considering Spidey/C. Mags blue.
  • NorthernPolarityNorthernPolarity Posts: 3,531 Chairperson of the Boards
    Another good thought exercise to think about regarding Daken is when you would use him in the situations that the game currently presents you.
    If you think about the team compositions that the game allows you to make, there are three main cases:
    1. Buffed fixed character that you have at a decent level + 2 characters of your choice - Most PvP tournaments follow this rule, essential PvE nodes.
    2. Buffed fixed character that you don't have a decent level + 2 characters of your choice - Any PvP tournament introducing a new character, like the last HT tournament. This essentially devolves into a 2v2 where you choose your 2 best guys.
    3. Any 3 characters of your choice - Most PvE nodes, No Holds Barred tournaments.
    4. Restricted roster on all 3 characters, which we won't cover.

    It's pretty obvious that Daken shines in case 3, since you can structure your team composition such that you cover all the colors with the 2 other dudes and have daken as the strike tile generator/tank.

    Case 1 and 2 are more interesting: for case 1, if the buffed character has no synergy with Daken or is so powerful that Daken's strike tiles are irrelevant, then hes a terrible addition to the team. Take Patch for instance: do you really need Daken strike tiles when Patch can 1 shot everything? The focus of the game then revolves around supporting Patch as much as possible, and so characters like IM40 and such would be a lot better on the team than Daken.

    For case 2, Daken seems like a terrible choice. The featured character is useless, so your other 2 guys need to be very versatile and cover as much of the colors as possible. In this case, you would much rather have well rounded guys like BP/LT/Punisher/C. Mags rather than Daken.

    This probably means that Daken isn't going to be totally broken: he'll clearly be very powerful, but I doubt that he'll be on the same power level as even LazyThor. I think the main point is that a character with a lot of passives means that you won't have as many active colors, which means that you need to make up for this by having characters with 3 good active abilities to offset that weakness.
  • The Punisher and Black Panther are probably the strongest a character can be and have a game to be considered technically balanced. Although The Punisher's abilities are probably too good overall, they're not so powerful that there is literally nothing you can do about it, and if you assume someone's got to be the strongest character in any game, then The Punisher is at least a choice I can tolerate for most powerful. Black Panther is similar in the sense that one of his skill is way overpowered (Rage of the Panther) but his other two skils are medicore enough that you can accept him as a pinnacle of power in a technically balanced game.

    I think people just doesn't think Captain is overpowered because there are quite a few guys who are above The Punisher level, and if you compare one broken character to another it's hard to say who is more broken than others, and certainly there is at least two guys more broken than Captain (Magneto and Spiderman), and lazy Thor probably too.

    For Daken, the problem is that you can already see how it plays out in PvE. There are a lot of fights where you simply see Daken's red strike tiles kills you with sheer match 3 damage, even when he's paired up with guys who have impotent offense moves like Yelena or Bullseye. Phermone Rage can't really be doing more than 2X50 and not get into a situation where all the other team has to is match 3 to kill you. A level 141 2* Daken has 2X75 strike tiles, and we know from PvE a Daken in that range pretty much requires some kind of cheap trick to deal with. And we're talking about Daken paired up with guys who have no offense. When he's on your side, even with limited roster you probably won't be putting him with Yelena or Bullseye. I guess we'll also have to see how regeneration works on him. Currently, 2* Daken is pretty much not attacked at all until the end because to stop his regen you need to match yellow, but yellow is useless unless you have lazy Thor. 3* Daken will have his regen on blue, which is currently the most valuable tile color. Does this mean you can simply match blue quickly enough to shut down his regen or even reverse it so that attacking Daken will be a viable strategy? Still, we don't even know what his blue ability does, and assuming it doesn't totally suck, he should at least be in the Psylocke tier, and it'd take very little for him to be in top tier depending on what his blue does.
  • over_clockedover_clocked Posts: 3,961
    allorin wrote:
    IM40. He's a great battery for Shieldbro's Red / Blue.

    If you're lucky, you match Red at the same time. Even Hulk doesn't last long of you can fire two Shieldbro Reds in quick succession.
    If only we had a good green/purple/black character! The only 3* that comes to mind is Loki. Also GSBW, sorta.
    Imo Rogue with Gambit abilities would be a perfect character to have green, purple and black abilities.
  • PhaserhawkPhaserhawk Age Unconfirmed Posts: 2,676 Chairperson of the Boards
    I don't think Daken is going to be a straight port with the same scaling ratio's . Assuming Purple and Black remain the same, I do not see a 3* lvl 141 Daken have the same strengths as a 2* buffed lvl 141 Daken. My guess....is that his strike tiles will be 1/2 to 1/3rd as strong as Patch's are and that his heal will be tweaked so that he won't be healing for more than Patch would whic has been all but confirmed. I figure his 3rd skill will be something comparable to TBTI, or Adamantium Slash, just a basic attack spell. Daken's value IMO will not come from his power, it will come in the ability to rainbowfy a team. He will make the Hulk good, he will make Psylocke good, he makes Patch more lethal earlier. He will just fit well in the current meta, and that is where his true power will come from.
  • 3* Daken just needs to be out already. He's gonna be the perfect card for my team. I wouldn't even mind if he only had two abilities.
  • Phantron wrote:
    Lazy Cap and lazy Thor does damage far beyond any comparable 3* as well. They're not fair comparison because even if you say these guys are P2W guys intended at generate revenues, I don't see why you'd start assuming Daken is the same way. He might end up as a P2W character, but I'd hope not for the good of the game.

    Even 2X50 strike tiles would be a top tier passive. At 3 green matches that's basically same as Judgment, except you don't have to be the one making the green matches. The biggest upside of Phoermone Rage is that you get the benefit regardless of who makes the green match. Even an obviously overpowered ability like Call the Storm gains no benefit if the opponent makes the green match instead of you.

    Just from playing against Daken it should be obvious that Daken is quite capable of killing people by simply matching tiles. If you get 5 hits out of each Phermone Rage for 2X50 strike tiles, then you can say Phermone Rage is equivalent as 'Whenever anyone makes a green match, they take 500 damage'. Note that if that only applied to you, it'd still be pretty good passive (it'd be 9g for 1500 damage, which isn't great for green but serviceable), but it works when the other side makes the match too!

    My assumption was simply that Lazy Thor and Lazy Cap are Gold Characters, Lazy Daken is a Gold Character so you similiar scaling as between 2* Cap and 3* Cap to fiqure out stats for 3* Daken using 2* Daken.

    While I agree that Daken is going to be a powerhouse you have to look at his other abilities too. Again compairing his to 3* wolverine his healing factor is not as good as Patches by a long shot and who knows what his third ability will be. Its going to have to be good to beat "Best their is".

    I wouldn't be surprized to find out he is a one trick pony.
  • OzarkBoatswainOzarkBoatswain Posts: 647 Critical Contributor
    Phantron wrote:
    Daken 2* currently generates 2 104 strike tiles at level 195. Scale this to level 141 you get 2X75 strike tiles.

    Daken 3* would have a level cap of 115 because he only has two abilities.
  • Phantron wrote:
    The Punisher and Black Panther are probably the strongest a character can be and have a game to be considered technically balanced. Although The Punisher's abilities are probably too good overall, they're not so powerful that there is literally nothing you can do about it, and if you assume someone's got to be the strongest character in any game, then The Punisher is at least a choice I can tolerate for most powerful. Black Panther is similar in the sense that one of his skill is way overpowered (Rage of the Panther) but his other two skils are medicore enough that you can accept him as a pinnacle of power in a technically balanced game.

    I think people just doesn't think Captain is overpowered because there are quite a few guys who are above The Punisher level, and if you compare one broken character to another it's hard to say who is more broken than others, and certainly there is at least two guys more broken than Captain (Magneto and Spiderman), and lazy Thor probably too.

    Its my opinion the MPQ has moved away from nerfing characters and toward making new characters more powerful. I mean look at the recent releases. You got Lazy Thor - OP, Human Torch (arguably all three of his abilities are at least 2nd best of their color), Lazy Cap (with great HP and a great red), etc. I can't even remember the last character released that was much weaker than Punisher, what Psylocke? Still pretty good. Ares epic 2*.

    I mean really hasn't been a new character as of late that I was like nnaaahhhh I'll pass. Up next Lazy Daken, Falcon and some 4*. Based on the hints we have been given none of them will suck.
    IceIX wrote:
    gobstopper wrote:
    Would be more suitable as 2*, just like Daredevil
    With his current ability balance, he's like Black Widow (Original) in that he can find a place on just about any team. In test, I'm currently dreading seeing any Daken or Wolverine/Falcon teams. I wouldn't want Falcon to be a tank with what he can currently do. Ow.
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