** Black Widow (Original) ** [PRE 2014-06]

Unknown

theHappyDance wrote:

OBW is the sole reason this game is still casually playable. Nerfing her would mean making the game unplayable and near impossible to progress, especially for most intermediate players, without spending a ridiculous amount on health packs. I've bought health packs exactly twice at the end of pve's when my luck turned sour, but those are the only times I've bought health packs. If they ever become a requirement, I think a lot of people would just quit. And I've spent some money on this game, so I don't think it's in anyone's interest to nerf the one useful healer we have left. Never did get a yellow spiderboy cover, so not too burnt about that nerf, but I imagine most people who did, and put in the month+ to level him are pretty jaded about that. TBH, the times I've played him, he's pretty much a pushover as long as you deny him blue, so the nerf does kind of feel intended just to encourage people to spend more on health packs.

I've felt this whole push to get people to spend on health packs was a bad idea from the get-go, but we've been able to get around that somewhat with healers. If they completely nerf away healers, they will get rid of all their "freeloaders" (F2P players), but they'll also get rid of most of their paying customers as well (except of course for the hardcores / semi-pro/ pro gamers for whom money (at least in-game) is no object - which is fine. People can spend their money however they want, but I'm just drawing a distinction between different spending habits based on player type).

Funny, I'd argue that the opposite is true. The way OBW works means that many players will be able to play lots of matches without needing a break to recover health and medpacks with time. So longer play sessions are rewarded over playing in short bursts. Someone grinding out lots and lots of somewhat slower wins over extended play sessions doesn't sound very much like a casual player IMO. And all those sustain based teams grinding out matches will tend to drive other players and team comps down in the rankings. Someone who is, for instance, playing some on lunch breaks and after work, will not be benefiting most of the time from healer fueled marathons.

Unknown

I agree with the posters that say she doesn't need a nerf but rather that other characters need a buff so they suck less. Because of all of the whining about healing, we're likely to end up with a bunch of glass cannon teams once D3 nerfs the healing characters into oblivion. That will be so much more fun. "Oh a cascade? GG Bro." The transition to a reasonable 3* team takes a long time, I've been working on it since they nerfed Thorverine. So all of these arguments to make this take longer are really annoying.

Unknown

Victim wrote:

Funny, I'd argue that the opposite is true. The way OBW works means that many players will be able to play lots of matches without needing a break to recover health and medpacks with time. So longer play sessions are rewarded over playing in short bursts. Someone grinding out lots and lots of somewhat slower wins over extended play sessions doesn't sound very much like a casual player IMO. And all those sustain based teams grinding out matches will tend to drive other players and team comps down in the rankings. Someone who is, for instance, playing some on lunch breaks and after work, will not be benefiting most of the time from healer fueled marathons.

Who're we kidding here? The way the pve events are setup, there's no way to play them casually and win anything without grinding like hell (part of the reason they need to give us more breaks between them). And in pvp, she provides insurance that you can play more than one match at a time. Wiping 3 characters, especially if they're your strongest characters and you don't have a full lineup of 3-stars (or 2 stars if you're intermediate), means a pretty short play session if you're on your lunch break. With OBW, people feel some security that they won't wipe in two matches and then be unable to play for another 2 hours. There's different kinds of casual. For some people casual means only playing a couple matches at a time (usually how I play), but for others it means playing in sustained bursts (I do this sometimes too), but not feeling obligated to play every day, for months on end, with no breaks, in order to maintain progress. I'd label both as casual, in comparison to some of the hardcores here who enjoy grinding for hours on end, every day of the week (and there's nothing wrong with it if that's what they like - it's a choice, mine's just different).

The only effect nerfing OBW would have would be to make it even harder for transitioning players to make it into **/*** territory, while driving away most casuals. OBW is the only 2-star I spent hero points on to buy covers, and there's a reason for that. She makes the game feel like much less of a grind to play, and she's weak on defense. Occasionally, you will get unlucky and she'll wipe you out, but usually she's pretty manageable.

Unknown

I dug through the old thread and found what I originally proposed her pink to change to way back when. I don't think it would make her any less fun. Just a bit better balance and scaling makes more sense to me. I'm not gonna keep arguin forever though because it's really not that big a deal. I don't even use 2* anyways I just find her incredibly annoying. The best solution is to hurry up and buff the old guys and add like 4-5 more healers I to the game. But even if you do that her ap steal is still insane. Here's what I dug up.


3. Some people also see her lvl 3 pink as being better than her lvl 5. I think this also is a problem. People think change means making her obsolete. Instead of thinking of her being made obsolete, think of how the powers could be redone.
Purple - 15ap
Steals 2 of all ap. - 12 lost by them. 12 gained by you. Potentially 24ap turnaround for 15ap
Lvl 2 - costs 1 ap less
Lvl 3 costs 1 ap less. (Every1 will get to this point. Now 13 ap for potential 24ap turnaround.
Lvl 4- costs 1 ap less (now 4 matches instead of either 5 or match 4 pick ups, makes it a decision to gain benefit from moving up)
Lvl 5- now steals up to 3 of all ap (12ap for a potential 36ap turn around. It's still incredible)

BearVenger

Psykopathic wrote:

BearVenger wrote:

Actually, no. I play a lot of Original Black Widow, as she was easier to build up than a 3* character, and she makes my teams competitive against 3* teams whose hitpoints and damage outclass me. Playing with OBW is like extending your life bar.

Secondly, she's the only character who both heals and steals. Without her, my 2*s and mid 3*s will get eaten up by 141s' power moves...

It sounds like your frustration is that a lot of people find success with a character you don't like to play as. Barring a bad cascade, she's not a match-killer. And if she were, there's a skip button to minimize her in your matchups. Please don't request to fix something that's not OP or broken.

This post says it all basically. A 2* that allows the player to overthrow 141's.
Basically your whole post describes how OP she is as you defend her.

She is in reality the most unbalanced 2* by a long shot.

She makes it possible, but by no means guaranteed, to beat 100-level heroes. I still cringe at 141 x3. If we take out special attacks and only do match-3 play, I'm going to lose 9/10 times with weaker attacks and lesser starting health.

And as I mentioned above, I don't choose my opposition (beyond whom I cab skip). The game decides I can only play people (occasionally) equal to or (usually) better than me, and it's going to be that way until they make a casual version of this. I can either use every advantage to beat tougher competition, or I can take lots of 20-minute-plus-however-many-hours-health cooldowns. Whee, fun.

And like I and others have said, OdBW is eminently beatable. Kill the healer first. And one-on-one, she's a nuisance, but will only last as long as it takes her opponent to whip out a special move.

There are a lot of characters I like, and a lot I tolerate (LazyThor). But at this point of the game (RIP Spidey), why kill off a character that anyone likes? Especially one who's accessible without dropping a kittenton of HP to make useable?

Unknown

Everyone always with the heal this heal that heal heal heal. I have never said a word about her healing. I've said many many times her healing is fine. You could even buff her black. Give her a few hundred extra health. Idc. The ap steal is my only issue.

Clintman

Psykopathic wrote:

Everyone always with the heal this heal that heal heal heal. I have never said a word about her healing. I've said many many times her healing is fine. You could even buff her black. Give her a few hundred extra health. Idc. The ap steal is my only issue.

History tells us though that is if they **** up her purple they won't stop until she is completely **** up, that is the way the nerf bat swings in D3 land.

over_clocked

Nicobile, what team are you usually running? Are you actually denying purple and killing oBW first? If not, then why complain that enemy oBW Recons you all the time? Why not run her yourself to make it easier? She's the best counter to herself in the 2* range.
There are not that many characters to always kill first: mStorm/oBW/cStorm/the Hood.

Psyko - go away, you are not the real Psyko. You are like Phantron but twice as bad.

Unknown

locked wrote:

Nicobile, what team are you usually running? Are you actually denying purple and killing oBW first? If not, then why complain that enemy oBW Recons you all the time? Why not run her yourself to make it easier? She's the best counter to herself in the 2* range.
There are not that many characters to always kill first: mStorm/oBW/cStorm/the Hood.

Psyko - go away, you are not the real Psyko. You are like Phantron but twice as bad.

Either get OBW or else deal with it. Nice argument.
Little comments like that invite me to stick around just to piss you off when I may have otherwise gone away.

over_clocked

I'm not pissed off by your little comments, I'm pissed off that you seem not to care about other players (not me - I barely use oBW myself these days, although she's definitely more fun to play than Rags or IM 40).
Yes, he should get oBW. Why so opposed? 1* and 2* covers drop like rain, I'm sure that I could have got at least a half-built oBW from the recent drops. I'm not saying he MUST or he can die trying, as oBW is killable with Ares or Wolverine/Daken quite easily, but she's the best 2* and covers blue/purple/black so it seems silly not to get her.

BearVenger

D'oh! Double-post.

Unknown

I've only been doing 1 thing. I've been trying to get someone to give me a solid explanation how her recon is balanced. Why does should it be that good on a 2* compared to ap steal abilities of other characters. Why shouldn't it be nerfed.

If you look back through this thread and even the old one no one ever does that. The only arguments people give are
1. Don't nerf her I really need her to heal my characters.
2. Nerfing her would have to much of an effect on the people trying to transition to 3*
3. Random insult or attempt to shut down argument.

What doesn't happen is people actually trying to defend the broken move, her pink. Instead they avoid that and point out her benefits or change subject in some other way. How does a 2* with the ability to create a 48ap turn around and shut down an entire team make sense.

Unknown

I don't think it'd be wise to nerf any 2* at this point. If anything, the underpowered 2*s need to be buffed (Moonstone, Bullseye, MHawkeye, etc). Daredevil could use a buff or a derank from 3* to 2*. X-Force needs a buff. And finally, Bag-Man changed to 0* or 4*

Unknown

gobstopper wrote:

I don't think it'd be wise to nerf any 2* at this point. If anything, the underpowered 2*s need to be buffed (Moonstone, Bullseye, MHawkeye, etc). Daredevil could use a buff or a derank from 3* to 2*. X-Force needs a buff. And finally, Bag-Man changed to 0* or 4*

I totally agree all the buffs need to happen. They are all long overdue. The weaker 2 and 3*'s and all the 2 skill covers. Definitely.

Unknown

So the argument here is that OBW is useful as opposed to most other 2 stars so lets undo that? As opposed to making other characters useful? People have invested either money or sweat equity into this game, wouldn't it make more sense to increase the value of their investment vs depreciating it? Bring other characters up to the value/fun/usefulness of OBW. You see so many of the same combinations because they are the ones proven to work. It's the reason Thorverine reigned and the reason for so many OBW teams. Instead of clamoring to nerf anybody you are sick of seeing let them know there should be more viable 2 star options especially in support roles. It's a shame that there are only 12 uncommon characters (and that's counting Bagman) while "Rare" characters account for 15, 18 if you count gold too (none of whom are put in the game only to serve as a booby prize.) If you are upset over the lack of variety at the upper 2 star level, blame the Devs for only giving 12 options and then abandoning this tier despite it's assumed status as the largest group of players. I know they say they do that to encourage people to advance to 3* quickly, but if that's the case then why do they have so many 3* characters with so few covers available, A new 3* comes out via a pve with 1 cover reserved for top alliances (who presumably already are mostly 3* players) then it is given away via a chance for character x in it's featured pack (not guaranteed anymore) then given away as a pvp reward. Then it goes into hiding with hopes you find it with a random token, without rng luck you're looking at 6 covers max and a 3* who is still worse than your current 2* and they get put in the back of the closet until they are required again. So I guess what I'm saying is either give the 2* tier a better pool to swim in or make it easier to move up, then people wouldn't be frustrated at seeing the same 2* characters over and over for months on end.

Unknown

Psykopathic wrote:

What doesn't happen is people actually trying to defend the broken move, her pink.

I have better proposition. Let's first find out who said what this skill is broken?

You? Another «elite players», which get butthurt cuz someone with ** team have chance to win against your 141 gangs?Beginners, who don't learn all game mechanics aspects and write about broken characters after each their defeat from AI?

But and so non random person like you, and any other is just regular players, which opinions non have better priorities than opinions yours opponents.

If you don't like something, it doesn't mean that it is really bad.

Unknown

OTERSEY wrote:

Psykopathic wrote:

What doesn't happen is people actually trying to defend the broken move, her pink.

I have better proposition. Let's first find out who said what this skill is broken?

You? Another «elite players», which get butthurt cuz someone with ** team have chance to win against your 141 gangs?Beginners, who don't learn all game mechanics aspects and write about broken characters after each their defeat from AI?

But and so non random person like you, and any other is just regular players, which opinions non have better priorities than opinions yours opponents.

If you don't like something, it doesn't mean that it is really bad.

Ok then. So describe to me how aggressive recon is not broken. If I am wrong and it isn't explain how. As I've stated 3 times I was a 2* player when I made the thread about balancing her months ago. I didn't have a spidey. I didn't have tons of 3*'s. I was in the phase everyone else that is saying they need her was in. But no, you don't wanna actually read the thread and see what's been said. You just wanna troll and insult everyone. The reason I came at you to begin with is because you were being an **** towards the OP. I drew the attention to myself. Now you continue on with your sly little remarks and your nonsense instead of providing actual intelligent conversation.

Unknown

Psykopathic wrote:

Ok then. So describe to me how aggressive recon is not broken. If I am wrong and it isn't explain how. As I've stated 3 times I was a 2* player when I made the thread about balancing her months ago. I didn't have a spidey. I didn't have tons of 3*'s. I was in the phase everyone else that is saying they need her was in. But no, you don't wanna actually read the thread and see what's been said. You just wanna troll and insult everyone. The reason I came at you to begin with is because you were being an **** towards the OP. I drew the attention to myself. Now you continue on with your sly little remarks and your nonsense instead of providing actual intelligent conversation.

What you know about «burden of proof»? I shouldn't lead any evidence to the contrary. Person, who said what this is broken is you. I asked you a very concrete questions, the answers to which wasn't not in this, not in other topics with your participation. So, «****» and «troll» (how about forum rules, mr?) is your best arguments? Ok.

Unknown

Tired of OBW, huh? Just wait until the Spidey nerfs go through.

Unknown

OBW is fine. The problem is that she doesn't have an alternative. Tell me a 2* character that uses purple/black/blue. There is none. Best possible replacement you get is Fake Ms. Marvel who doesn't use blue and have at least 2 sucky abilities. Mawkeye lacks black and have at least 3 sucky abilities.