** Black Widow (Original) ** [PRE 2014-06]

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Comments

  • locked wrote:
    That's the common opinion but likewise you have lots of people defending the 5/5/3 build (which is probably better for PvE as there are more dangerous purple abilities out there). pasa of scAvengers even religiously proclaims 5/3/5 to be the best, *the only* correct build.

    That's a bit overstated icon_e_smile.gif that is definitely best build for me and decided with careful consideration plus looking at game situatuions from practice where build would make a difference.

    what I was too loud about was obsession for 5 blue due to imagined healing advantage. While I did accept reasoning for 5 blue where people actively wanted the 3 purple. IMO that is way worse on attack both as offense or defense move. While in AI's hand we agreed that getting robbed is more like player error (or rare bad luck that is part of the game) and the build itself doesn't matter, just the player shall go ahead accordingly. I won game getting robbed 3 times. Getting robbed by 8AP version is planned event if the board is full of purples, you just shall collect single AP and purple and leave it as bait, AI shoots it immediately, then you can rest for the whole game. Getting robbed by the 11AP version can be way nastier especially if come unexpected after a radical board change.

    We still have more than a handful usable characters and multiple styles of play is allowed so the 3P version may fit better some -- I reserve my doubts without debating that point in general.
  • locked wrote:
    People losing to oBW on offense, sheesh.

    Next time I lose to Patch on offense, should I demand his nerf? (Not that that ever happens, though - but I'm like most players and most players do NOT usually lose on offense.)

    I recall exactly one loss to an OBW team from last month. And it was due to a serious, blatant player error, could have been easily prevented.
  • over_clockedover_clocked Posts: 3,961
    I dunno, pasa, most teams that field oBW are 2* teams and to them, a lvl 3 Recon is just as deadly as a lvl 5 Recon. For them, 3-5-5 oBW is a more dangerous one. 3* teams kill any builds with the same efficiency.
  • 2* wolverine and thor were nerfed because everybody used them
    spiderman is about to get neutered because everybody uses him for pve which increases scaling
    obw is the most used character in pvp so she should be next

    that's why nerfing characters is not the solution, its a non stop cycle that's never going to end
  • locked wrote:
    I dunno, pasa, most teams that field oBW are 2* teams and to them, a lvl 3 Recon is just as deadly as a lvl 5 Recon. For them, 3-5-5 oBW is a more dangerous one. 3* teams kill any builds with the same efficiency.

    Today I saw a plenty of OBW+ max PUN teams. But surely most teams use her before having multiple evolved ***s.

    But if MMR works at all, most opponents of the ** OBW teams are also ** teams, so will have their own OBW. And I really hope everyone accepts without debate that in a mirror the 5AR version is far superior on about any kind of board.

    Also for the 3AR version the previously mentioned calculations of AP transfer will not stand for majority of cases. Ok, unless certainly packs the palette AP boost facing OBW or Hood, but it fits the mentioned "barring player error" category. I keep the position that if someone loses to 3AR recon more frequently than to random insane cascades he's just a bad MPQ player.
  • NellobeeNellobee Age Unconfirmed Posts: 457 Mover and Shaker
    I do not have Ares yet, but I am running MNMag/CStorm. Frequently before I can get the blue required for the stun, I get AggRecon'd.

    And I have been stuck at three 85's for several months now.
  • over_clockedover_clocked Posts: 3,961
    I run a 3/5/5 oBW and keep getting purple covers that I eventually discard. I just don't know what I could possibly give up to have 5 in purple, I don't want to sacrifice neither 5 blue nor 5 black, especially not black as I want to get some mileage out of Patch + oBW first.
    3 purple is usually enough to tinykitty the opponent anyway (definitely enough to tinykitty their oBW). I don't see in what way 5 AR is superior - it does steal more, it does steal purple, but it costs more (one match away), so it's kinda even in my eyes. For me, a 5-5-3 mStorm is galaxies away from a 5-4-4 mStorm who only needs one red AP more for Mistress.
  • kensterrkensterr Age Unconfirmed Posts: 1,277 Chairperson of the Boards
    I go along with the suggestion of another ** or *** utility character instead of nerfing OBW. I use her in all my team, especially for stealing, healing and extra damage with strike tiles if I use Punisher. At the moment I can't find another character with useful active purple and blue, unless I spend HP on Classic Magneto.

    If only Psylocke's blue wasn't so expensive and the countdown requirement removed I might consider leveling her up.

    New (highly requested) characters like Emma Frost, Black Cat or even Nightcrawler can be useful with AP steal and healing abilities too, and should put a better balance to the game rather than a radical nerf to OBW. I seriously hope that she doesn't end up like Spidey.
  • You have to use OBW if you have a 2 star team. Literally feel like a fool when you don't use her. Her heal gives sustain that let's you conserve health packs. The steal lets you shut down very offensive teams.

    I feel guilty running OBW and Thor as much as I do, but how can I not? I need the heals and thors tankiness offsets her weakness. That tankiness also gives more time to build up her heals so yeah, got to use him.

    We'd see less of her if we had other types of valid support. When people aren't complaining about OBW, they are complaining about spidey...because he's pretty much the only viable option. The meta demands you bring along a healer so you can play more and those are the only two real options
  • ronin_sanronin_san Posts: 980 Critical Contributor
    Piss off with the "OBW is overpowered" nonsense. She's situationally brilliant. She's easily neutralized, and has no big attacks. She is a good chiseler. She can be almost be taken down with one wolverine red attack. That means, you attack her first to whittle her down and throw big damage at her.

    In any fight, there's one character you need to kill of first. M Storm. Punisher. Thor before he damages all w/ that Call the Storm. GSBW before she gets 19 green. etc...

    But to say that a 2 star is so OP, especially when she's so easily defeated? Nonsense.
  • SpoitSpoit Posts: 3,441 Chairperson of the Boards
    ronin-san wrote:
    Piss off with the "OBW is overpowered" nonsense. She's situationally brilliant. She's easily neutralized, and has no big attacks. She is a good chiseler. She can be almost be taken down with one wolverine red attack. That means, you attack her first to whittle her down and throw big damage at her.

    In any fight, there's one character you need to kill of first. M Storm. Punisher. Thor before he damages all w/ that Call the Storm. GSBW before she gets 19 green. etc...

    But to say that a 2 star is so OP, especially when she's so easily defeated? Nonsense.
    I'll give you m storm, but Thor is fairly slow to start out, so you can usually ignore him, especially with how fat he is. Doubly so for GSBW, who I don't think ANYONE thinks is a legitimate threat
  • BearVengerBearVenger Posts: 452 Mover and Shaker
    edited May 2014
    Psycho, I wanted to give you an ad hominem-free retort, but with it being late, I will only throw the barebones (correction: rambly, unfocused) version up here.

    Your argument of OBW's 3-turn steal for an 18-AP turnaround is the best of best-case scenarios. For her to steal 3x5 would require the opponent have 3 in those 5 colors. That would take 5 turns of three-gem matches, with the opponent intentionally going for one match of each color. That doesn't happen often within the first 5-8 turns, barring a cascade, which would average the player having leftovers even after a steal.

    It would also require her team to make three 3-gem (or two 4-gem-plus-a-steal) pink matches in a row. Again, that doesn't happen often right out of the gate, either. And if it did, my team has nothing but purple/pink to fall back on. Once I trigger it, I'd be on my fourth turn, and I'd end up with 3 in every color, but no more. That's not a particularly strong position to be in, either.

    Since you brought up "She can heal AND steal," I would counter that she can do one or the other, but not both at the same time. It would take three steals at 3 or 5 covers to get one 9AP heal.

    A human player, focusing on steals (or starting with boosts), can get an early steal out. However, if he did get an early steal out, there's not going to be as much to steal, and it's a suboptimal move. An AI player whose gathered enough pink to steal will likely be damaged to at least mid-level health, and is dealable.

    Again, looking at The Hood: At 3 covers he steals 1 of 4/6 colors per turn (provided the opponent has those colors, just like OBW) if there are 10 gems on the board. At 64 spots, with 7 different tiles, there is an average of 9.1 tiles of any color on the board at any one point in time. Get Hood up to 5 covers, and it goes down to any color w/9 tiles. That works out to 1 tile leached in every color per turn, unless you've been drained empty or you've killed Hood.

    The difference: Hood is active from the get-go, and doesn't require you seek out and get three matches of a certain color. A Hood team can focus on any color while working its steal in the background. I can usually down a 3K OBW before she gets her blue or pink moves off. Facing Hood, on the other hand, is like skateboarding uphill in a mudslide.

    My defense of OBW is not great right now. I'm tired, admittedly attached to her, and you deserve better. I consider her steal, in casino odds, lesser than Hood's.

    I also think OBW, as others have mentioned, is a unique character, and a difference from and a compliment to the usual tanky characters. She's a help on a human team and a lesser factor on an AI team. Nerfing her would make the game about the same for the AI and much less for the 2* players trying to move up against our higher-powered opponents.+

    Someone had mentioned, "Yeah, but if she gets a good cascade, she's unstoppable." I think that can be applied to everyone but BagMan. I suppose we could always swear an honor system oath to avoid cascades (especially T- and L-matches) unless we had no other choice. You know, to for balance's sake.

    + For what it's worth, I'm not in any hurry to spend up on my 3* characters. This game is set up so you're never "one-up" on your opponents - the best you can hope for is to be even 141s, at full health, and better at strategy than the AI. I'd rather collect ISO and covers from in-game means, manage my MMR, and grow an even, diverse roster.
  • SpoitSpoit Posts: 3,441 Chairperson of the Boards
    Really, it only takes her getting 2 purple matches to be a threat, which you can't always prevent before killing her, even without a cascade
  • BearVengerBearVenger Posts: 452 Mover and Shaker
    edited May 2014
    Correction: Sploit's got me.

    Still, I can turn two green matches into 4 strike tiles, a Ragna-shot, or 1200 damage via Onslaught. There's a lot of ways to be dangerous out there.
  • SpoitSpoit Posts: 3,441 Chairperson of the Boards
    9 AP recon? It's either 8 or...really, who doesn't go for the 8 one icon_lol.gif

    I may have a slight addiction to blue boosting for cmags icon_redface.gif
  • BearVengerBearVenger Posts: 452 Mover and Shaker
    You're right, sploit. It would take two 4-tile matches to get 8AP. That's not likely on most matches, but it is a possibility.
  • Well, if you let the other team get a purple match, it does indeed only take 2, since she steals one extra with every match. But it's not something to be relied on.
  • I can't be the only one who sees this as a symptom of the problem, right? Yeah, OBW is slightly overtuned as far as 2*s go. In fact, I think it's fair to say that she is the best 2*, hands-down (okay, maybe Thor comes close). She's an insane support char that can completely lock you out of the game and make your damage meaningless. It's annoying. It's everywhere.

    It's inferior to most good 3* teams.

    You know why OBW is so popular and common? It's because she's the only real way available to approach scoring high in the brackets. People don't play OBW/Thor or OBW/Ares nonstop because they want to; they do it because nothing else is viable. Nothing else is even close to as good on defense in the 2* range; very little is comparable on offense. And you have to play to win if you want to improve and get better. The problem isn't "OBW is OP". The problem is "nothing else is good enough". Moonstone might be decent... If she had more than one skill that was any good in most matchups, or if her black cost about half what it costs. Daken could be good... If he wasn't so reliant on the rest of the team and you didn't have to deal with a wasted slot in most PvP events. C.Storm would be on a similar level if her lightning strike was decent; MNMags would be good if Magnetic Flux cost less or he had more life... Don't nerf OBW. Buff everyone else. This isn't an issue of "this character is OP". It's just that everyone else is underpowered.
  • I don't see a problem. Bring her to the front and knock her down. She's cake. Learn to plan your cascades and you can put her down in a few moves. I don't even see the characters opposing anymore. I see total healths and move to bring that health to zero.
  • hurculeshurcules Age Unconfirmed Posts: 519
    Nellobee wrote:
    I do not have Ares yet, but I am running MNMag/CStorm. Frequently before I can get the blue required for the stun, I get AggRecon'd.

    And I have been stuck at three 85's for several months now.
    That's your problem right there.

    If you run MNMag/CStorm (assuming maxed level and correct build), your focus should be collecting purple AP while targeting OBW. Then unleash Polarity Shift as soon as ready (9AP if I recall) to get as much blue AP as possible. Once you get OBW health below 1600-ish (can't remember exactly, check max damage from CStorm's Wind Storm ability), cast Wind Storm on the character with highest hit point at this moment. Usually 2* Wolverin or 2* Thor or Ares.
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