** Black Widow (Original) ** [PRE 2014-06]

mouser

mechgouki wrote:

I left Aggressive Recon at Lv 3 and I did not regret it.

It pays to have it at minimal cost and make it spammable to deny the enemy of AP.

Sure lv 5 is more potent. But you have to wait much longer to get it.

Not to mention quite often the opponent doesn't have that many of all the colors anyway. So you're often only gaining a couple more AP points.



I'm in the OBW doesn't need a nerf camp. Her biggest threat to unbalancing the game used to be the double damage off strike tiles. However with Wolverine nerfed the amount of strike tile spam has decreased / slowed down significantly. That has effectively reduced her damage ability, especially early in the game.

I think she's currently a nice mix of support abilities and would like to see more characters with a mix of support abilities like her in the future. You'd like to use her abilities to steal AP or prep a heal, but at the same time she's squishy and you have to be careful about exposing her in the front rank. She makes the game more interesting as you have to apply more strategy with her on offense then most of the other characters.

NorthernPolarity

OBW seems perfectly balanced for a 2* character. The heal isn't enough to keep up with the damage output of higher ranked teams, is squishy so can be focused down extremely easily, espionage enables synergy with other characters, and purple stealing stuff is really good at slowing your enemies down. The only thing I can think of that would cause her to be nerfed is if she is the only 2* support character that is currently played (which is probably the case), but this is actually a case (unlike Thorverine) where the other 2* supports should be buffed to compensate.

Unknown

NorthernPolarity wrote:

OBW seems perfectly balanced for a 2* character. The heal isn't enough to keep up with the damage output of higher ranked teams, is squishy so can be focused down extremely easily, espionage enables synergy with other characters, and purple stealing stuff is really good at slowing your enemies down. The only thing I can think of that would cause her to be nerfed is if she is the only 2* support character that is currently played (which is probably the case), but this is actually a case (unlike Thorverine) where the other 2* supports should be buffed to compensate.

There are other 2* supports? Tell me you don't mean Bag-Man. I guess MNMags qualifies (on both counts), and maybe C.Storm 'cos AP gen, but she's a bit more of a stretch considering the two AoEs, plus people do use her.

Phaserhawk

nicholasjohnconger wrote:

I like using her, but mine is only at level 30 and I built her 3/5/5....in retrospect, probably should have gone 5/3/5

No you built her perfect for non 3* deck. If you keep playing to where you get good 3* then 5/5/3 is the better build 5/3/5 is probably the worst. If all you can field are 2* at the moment then 3/5/5 is the best 5/5/3 when you have awesome cards as she will just be a healer ap stealer than

Puritas

RockMonster wrote:

Moonstone and Gimpneto

Trust me you're not missing anything

Unknown

Puritas wrote:

RockMonster wrote:

Moonstone and Gimpneto

Trust me you're not missing anything

I dunno, they both seem like solid choices for high level PvE goons. I got off a Control Shift against one of those Maggia Muscle for some nice +850 strike tiles.

Unknown

mechgouki wrote:

I used to think that 5/5/3 was the best. I realized how mistaken I was later.

My OBW recently started getting enough covers that I started levelling her. 5/5/3 is what I was working towards as well.

Right now, though, she's only 4/4/2. I was actually pretty happy with that, thinking one tourney where she's teh 2* reward and try to snag the 3 covers reward and I'm done.

Looking at this more now, I'm not sure. I don't get enough covers rebuilding her from scratch doesn't seem like a good option. So I'm trying to decide between my original plan of 5/5/3 or going 4/5/4. My only 85 is a 2* Wolvie, so strike tiles are common for me.

5/5/3 - the main advantage here seems to be if I'm against another purple user - another OBW in particular. This is really common right now, I'd say OBW is in 75% of the fights I'm in right now. I've also decided that beating down the OBW on the other team is really my top priority - if I kill her off, the other people usually fall pretty easily as I can steal their AP without counter.

4/5/4 - I can't steal purple, but I do start doing damage when matching her tiles. It would be 56 damage instead of 112, but doing any damage is enough to kick in the 'amplified strike tile damage' so that's really appealing. With 3 40-strength strikes on the board, it would add 296 damage per appropriate match, which is pretty good (vs 352 at 5 covers), and 120 at 3 covers, if I'm mathing this out right).

Unknown

If you've gone to 4, go to 5. She's one of those, imo. Stealing a fraction more AP is nothing most of the time, and you've already increased the cost. Stealing purple as well is huge, and actually justifies the increased cost, it just makes her initially slower and tweaks her function.

You're right that slightly more damage off Espionage doesn't matter, since you don't use it for its inherent damage, anyway, but people put that at 5 to keep Aggressive Recon costing 8AP.

Katai

In your case, 5/5/3 is the best setup.

Purple is garbage at 4, but is great at 5. This is mainly because you steal purple and refund part of the cost. A 5/5/3 build on Widow is useful for when you start using higher-level purple/blue/black characters on the same team. She works well with 3* teams in this regard because she can stay safe (low HP), feed mana (steal), and heal. Great if you have a Loki or Dr. Doom on the team, or even Dare Devil if he gets fixed any time soon...

Mawtful

My OBW is currently 3/5/5, and this has served me well, however I think I want to respec to 5/x/x.

I feel that 3/5/5 is better suited to PvE, whereas 5 purple is better suited to PvP. I picked up my 5th blue cover for Spidey nearly 4 weeks ago now, so he's fully replaced OBW has my go-to healer.

I'm currently leaning towards a build of 5/4/4. Espionage doing *some* damage is more important than how much damage it deals (Strike tiles can take care of that), so 4 in black seems to be a minimum requirement. That leaves 4 points for blue. I feel this is a much stronger build for PvP, with a focus on annoyance through AP theft.

That said, I'm still trying to think of who to team her with. Maybe Patch/IM40/OBW; but that would leave BW tanking Purple and Black, and it means she'd take over duties on Blue when IM uses Recharge, so it would inhibit the potential of Best There Is. Maybe I should be looking further ahead, to a metagame where Psylocke and Black Panther are more widely available - a 5/5/3 build could team well with BP. He'd be covering black and blue, so there's little reason to rank up Espionage, and she can Recon some of the AP that he gives to the opponent from his black.

Phaserhawk

Mawtful wrote:

My OBW is currently 3/5/5, and this has served me well, however I think I want to respec to 5/x/x.

I feel that 3/5/5 is better suited to PvE, whereas 5 purple is better suited to PvP. I picked up my 5th blue cover for Spidey nearly 4 weeks ago now, so he's fully replaced OBW has my go-to healer.

I'm currently leaning towards a build of 5/4/4. Espionage doing *some* damage is more important than how much damage it deals (Strike tiles can take care of that), so 4 in black seems to be a minimum requirement. That leaves 4 points for blue. I feel this is a much stronger build for PvP, with a focus on annoyance through AP theft.

That said, I'm still trying to think of who to team her with. Maybe Patch/IM40/OBW; but that would leave BW tanking Purple and Black, and it means she'd take over duties on Blue when IM uses Recharge, so it would inhibit the potential of Best There Is. Maybe I should be looking further ahead, to a metagame where Psylocke and Black Panther are more widely available - a 5/5/3 build could team well with BP. He'd be covering black and blue, so there's little reason to rank up Espionage, and she can Recon some of the AP that he gives to the opponent from his black.

5/4/4 is a horrendous build. Ask yourself this...with your current lineup, is OBW symbol on any of the blue, purple, or black tiles? If not then go 5/5/3 as you don't do damage anyway so the damage bonus means nothing to you. Being able to consistantly heal with CD tiles out, especially in PvE is awesome.

Unknown

I still stand by that Recon at lv 3 is better for me.

In my case, it is far more important for the steal power to be able to activate quickly, so that I can spam it whenever I need to. This will speed me up and slow down the enemy.

I believe it is more important to be able to slow the enemy with more frequent lower steals, than it is to be able to store and charge for a long time before stealing much more from them. Of course the profit margin/percentage is higher with Lv 5, but we lose the speed and spammability. It is far more difficult to get 11 Ap than it is to get 8AP.

Whenever during PVP, the first enemy I always target is OBW (sounds like Obi Wan, lol). Well above C Storm and M Storm. Because the moment she gets her Recon out on me, I will be slowed down by at least 4-5 turns. It will be worse if she steals enough Blue to heal herself.

If I kill her before that happens, good. Otherwise I'm in trouble. I'll be slowed down, while they will speed up in their powers.

Phaserhawk

in my humble opinion you really only have 2 choices for building OBW 3/5/5 or 5/5/3. In a team comprised of mostly 2 stars your OBW will shine especially with wolverine and will do ALOT of damage. Even if you don't get all of the blue, black, and purple tiles with OBW symbol she's still does a lot of damage. You want 3/5/5 when you dont' have a very tanky team because you need to deny AP quickly and go off before the other team can. As you play and your lineup gets stronger, say you have a maxed out Punisher and Spiderman. She won't have any tiles thus your 3/5/5 build starts to show it's weakness because you just **** her black power to nothing since you can't steal extra AP or do extra damage. Thats when 5/5/3 is the superior build, however even with no use of black 3/5/5 is not bad as I said you massively deny their AP early.

In summation.

Tanky team that goes for the long game. 5/5/3 OBW

Build for Speed and quick knockouts because you lack HP then 3/5/5

NEVER EVER EVER LEAVE A SKILL AT 4 (obviously if she isnt' fully leveled thats okay) LEVEL 4 PURPLE AND BLUE ARE TERRIBLE AND THUS IF EITHER OF THOSE ARE TERRIBLE AT 4 YOU WILL NEVER LEAVE BLACK AT 4 (black is okay at 4) so you have to choose those 2 I'm sorry if anyone disagrees but they are wrong the only two viable builds are 5/5/3 or 3/5/5 nothing else

agent86ix

I've finally got enough covers to max out my OBW, and I even found an extra! I've had her at x/5/x for a while now. I like the 5 blue for healing, even when grunts are about.

However, I find myself in the position where I could have her at 4/5/4 or 5/5/3. The Purple AP steal seems like it would be beneficial, and +1 AP cost at this point doesn't seem that extreme a change.

However, as I build my 3* team, I'm noticing a lot of strike tiles - right now my lead 3*'ers are Patch and Punisher. It seems like the small damage from her Black could be somewhat useful.

What say you, pro players? Should I go 4/5/4 or 5/5/3? Or is there a better cover set I'm missing out on?

kaepamerica7

3/5/5 is the best despite what anyone one says. When shes at 85 she does 96 more damage for a blue black or purple match even more extra damage with strike tiles on the board. That's hardly a little and compared to her recon power when you go from 3 to 4 it costs 2 more ap and steals one more color of each.

Unknown

I have her 3/5/5 and think this is the best build. 5 Recon can steal purple too, but since Espionage allows you to steal it, the enemy won't have much anyway unless you allow him. I think being able to deny them AP with only 2 purple matches (if the the enemy has 2 purple AP, Espionage will steal 1 for each match) extremely useful.

DirigiblePilot

Absolutely absolutely absolutely 3/5/5.
The 5 in blue is of course essential for healing.
3 in purple is fine, because at 8 ap, that is two matches with Espionage steal. It is really easy to pop off, and you don't need it to steal purple. Stealing 4, while it might seem good, is generally not great, because the enemy most often gets AP in sets of 3. So that extra one might not be stolen from some colors.
And 5 in black is SO good. I have her at level 85, 3/5/5. She does ohhhh... roughly 120-140 damage from a match. And then Espionage kicks in, and does ANOTHER 120 damage. Plus both attacks get the benefit from strike tiles...
Wow, I couldn't imagine having anything but 3/5/5.

Unknown

Is it really necessary to spam forums with new topics, when You got the answer in Character Discussion forums?
And if by any chance You can't find Your answer there, why not ask in the topic about the hero You're interested in?

NorthernPolarity

The difference between 4 black and 5 black is negligible because the main utility of espionage is to synergize with strike tiles, in which case it doesn't matter is you're dealing 50 vs 150. The reason why 3/5/5 is the best build is because purple at higher levels gets too expensive. Level 3->4 is bad because your enemies gain AP in sets of 3, and this changes it from 2 matches to 3. Same reasoning applies to purple 4->5, so purple should be kept at 3, meaning that the other abilities should be kept at 5.

agent86ix

Awesome, seems like the consensus is on 3/5/5. After reading the character thread for OBW, it seemed like every new post was "This is the only viable build" - and each build was different!

I don't have the covers to make that 3/5/5 at the moment, but I can leave her at 4/5/4 and see if I can come up with another Black.

Thanks!