*** Human Torch (Classic) ***

Der_Lex

NorthernPolarity wrote:

There is a loose color pie going on in this game:
Red/green/black tend to be offensive powers:
Red focuses on direct damage.
Green focuses on strike tiles / board clears.
Black focuses on attack tiles / AoE.

Blue/Purple/Yellow tend to be defensive powers:
Yellow focuses on anything heal related.
Purple focuses on AP stealing / generation.
Blue focuses on stunning.

There's clearly a ton of bleeding and overlap of the colors (blue/green has AoE damage abilities, yellow has ap generation, etc), but given a completely new ability's color, chances are that the ability would fall under the primary focuses of the colors. As you can see from Human Torch, his red mainly does direct damage, his black has attack tiles, and his green.... uh... 2 out of 3 aint bad, right?

These were pretty much my observations as well, except that jack-of-all trades purple also focuses on tile shifting (c.mags, Moonstone, Loki, bag-man) and to a lesser extent defense tile generation, although it shares that with blue (spidey/bullseye and c.mags/panther, respectively). Black also seems to be the power that deals with turning positive special tiles into negative tiles, as per the powers of Loki and Yelena.
Yellow seems to be the least 'defined' color, although it definitely has healing in its domain, but otherwise it has powers that have all over the place.

(and we should probably make a new general thread for this, but I should be getting some work done and wanted to throw my thoughts out there).

Unknown

NorthernPolarity wrote:

Zifna wrote:

DayvBang wrote:

Agreed with everyone that HE'SONFIRE! should have been red/yellow/black both for thematic reasons and to keep from creating yet another Red/Green/Black 3* character when two popular ones exist. Maybe the power should have been redesigned to fit yellow better.

On the other hand, I'm one of the few people who doesn't love The Littlebunnypunpun, so he'll be my second favorite Red/Black/Green.

We could definitely use more color combo variety. I was talking with my husband and we were trying to think of someone he could add to his team who was *** and had used green but not red (he wants his Ninjaactiongirl to take the red) - I don't think there is one! There are a couple who use red but not green, but EVERYONE who uses green mana also uses red. BORING.

GSBW would work since no one uses her red anyways =D

But her green is her best power and one of the best in the game once you get the covers for it. If you don't have the covers her purple is a good green generator but why not use Thor or Rags instead? They're way more tanky on top of generating green.

Unknown

I'd have to agree that yellow feels more organic to the character and the power rather than green. I was surprised when I first saw the power and that it was green, just doesn't feel right in it's current state.

Dreylin

I think that over time we'll tend to see happen exactly what happened with M:TG - in the early days things were wild and free and the colour pie was ill-defined and often ignored. As time went by the divisions became much more clear, there was less bleed, and you could pretty-much ID the colour from the ability in a vacuum.

So for that reason I think that we have to be careful about giving too much weight to the first round of characters (and that includes the "lazy" re-issues) when considering the colour assignments for the future releases.

OTOH, with this game they often need to create multiple abilities which are very close in terms of effect, but which have to be spread over 3 separate colours - think Ares for a recent example. He has essentially 3 Direct Damage abilities with slight tweaks - AP gifting, AOE and countdown - which leaves it a balancing act to fit them into the "theme". Should Rampage have been the Green ability since Call of the Storm & Sniper Rifle are both AOE? But then how does that affect the others...?

Phaserhawk

Well his green still fits the build for the most part, while not a strike tile perse, it is a sort of offensive tile that drains your Green AP for damage. And I do believe if you have no green AP you won't be doing any damage. The way I read the skill is that it will calculate damage 1 of 2 ways.

Damage Calc 1) It will either do x damage for each green AP you have but.....it will first look to activate tiles. So if I have 2 tiles out, each tile wants 1 AP, if my turn started at 10 AP, when the skill goes to calculate damage, i will have lost 2 AP due to upkeep of the green, meaning each tile will do damage based off of 8 green AP.

Damage Calc 2) It could look at it another way, I start my turn with 10 AP, the tiles will now base their damage off of 10AP, then the tiles look to activate their damage by taking 1 Green AP leaving me with 8AP the next turn if I don't get anymore

I'm very curious how it will do damage, does it take the upkeep cost first then see how much green ap you have, or does it see how much green ap you have then take upkeep cost?

Unknown

NorthernPolarity wrote:

There is a loose color pie going on in this game:
Red/green/black tend to be offensive powers:
Red focuses on direct damage.
Green focuses on strike tiles / board clears.
Black focuses on attack tiles / AoE.

Blue/Purple/Yellow tend to be defensive powers:
Yellow focuses on anything heal related.
Purple focuses on AP stealing / generation.
Blue focuses on stunning.

There's clearly a ton of bleeding and overlap of the colors (blue/green has AoE damage abilities, yellow has ap generation, etc), but given a completely new ability's color, chances are that the ability would fall under the primary focuses of the colors. As you can see from Human Torch, his red mainly does direct damage, his black has attack tiles, and his green.... uh... 2 out of 3 aint bad, right?

Green is the ramp color (hey, just like in magic!) that gives you bigger effect for more AP in your pool, which his green definitely does

Unknown

Unlike MTG, there isn't some kind of bonus for picking 3 guys who can use green, or a resource constrain that prevents you from picking multiple colors, so the color pie theory really doesn't work here.

As is right now, the color theory just means strong yellow/purple characters characters have no counter besides themselves because it's rare to have powerful abilities on those colors due to the color theory. In yellow's case it's because most yellow abilities are weak defensive type powers, and in purple's case it's because purple abilities are just rare. You can't stop Thunder Strike when it involves skipping your own turn if you don't have Thor yourself, since there's literally nothing useful you can do with those yellow tiles without your own Thunder Strike. Likewise you can't stop an Aggressive Recon or Magnetic Translocation by collecting purple without the same ability on your side, because you can't do anything with those purple tiles. But a color like green is really easy to stop, since you've to try really hard to build a team that doesn't have a powerful green power, so by matching green you not only are guaranteed to shut off their green but you'll have your own green power too. Red and blue are similarly easy to 'deny' simply because almost every team has a power in those colors.

Unknown

GEFPenst wrote:

Well, I thought about relations between abilities and their colors. After playing awhile it's just interesting if my impession is same as for other players:
I'd divide them on three groups - Damage, Support and Sabotage.
Red - Direct damage
This is most obvious out of six. I mean, look at Wolv, IM, Rag, etc. Only noticable exception would be Thor - his red creates tiles, not destroys them. Why?

Black - Indirect damage
mStorm's Hailstorm, Moonstone' steal of attack and Bullseye' creating of critical. From that point of view Punisher's black supposed to be mainly for creation of strike tiles, not direct damage. On other hand, it creates red countdown, same intercolor relation as Daken's black-yellow passive.

Green - Agressive support
Punisher' and Wolv's strike tiles, Storm' trading in colors. Although I'm not sure, Rag and Thor create tiles, not getting AP or buff.

Yellow - Defending support (heal, resupply, protect)
This is mostly defensive color (well, it was until Ares advent - and even then it has heal in description). Wolv, IM, Spider, Cap - usual examples. Even cStorm's yellow kinda fits with hurricanes being defensive weapon. As for Hood, I guess it's mainly to get AP? Sounds more like green ability, no?

Blue - Stun, direct sabotage
On one hand, mHawk, mBW, cStorm, adding on countdowns for oBW, on other hand - Magneto with his blue protect and blowing.

Purple - indirect sabotage, confusion
Mag, Loki, Bag and Moon's swaps, mBW and oBW steals. On other hand - gBW's purple effect similar to Thor's red, although description fits.

Any thought? Maybe you have some ideas?
*Sorry for butchered English*

Bugpop wrote:

Red - of or pertaining to physical power
Purple - of or pertaining to manipulation or change
Blue - of or pertaining to control
Green - of or pertaining to action
Yellow - of or pertaining to energy
Black - of or pertaining to the darkness/enmity (literal or figurative)

Eddiemon wrote:

Red = anger, commonly assault.
Green = environment, commonly destruction. Changes the board massively, sometimes generating AP, sometimes adding strike tiles to the environment.
Blue = slowing maybe cold, magic, commonly stuns. Also has a heal? Hard to categorise beyond the stun. Has many misc powers like obw heal, dooms tile change which I think should be purple, hood stealing AP which also sounds purple but they are both magic effects so maybe that explains it.
Purple = stealth, misdirection. Steals AP, changes owned tiles, rearranges the board, changes tile colours.
Black = evil, decay, commonly attack tiles. Lower direct damage abilities but all seem to have side effects.
Yellow = life, commonly regeneration and defence tiles. Thor's yellow attack generates environment, which ties in with life.
I have no explanation for hoods yellow attack here.

Bugpop wrote:

Eddiemon wrote:

Red = anger, commonly assault.
Green = environment, commonly destruction. Changes the board massively, sometimes generating AP, sometimes adding strike tiles to the environment.
Blue = slowing maybe cold, magic, commonly stuns. Also has a heal? Hard to categorise beyond the stun. Has many misc powers like obw heal, dooms tile change which I think should be purple, hood stealing AP which also sounds purple but they are both magic effects so maybe that explains it.
Purple = stealth, misdirection. Steals AP, changes owned tiles, rearranges the board, changes tile colours.
Black = evil, decay, commonly attack tiles. Lower direct damage abilities but all seem to have side effects.
Yellow = life, commonly regeneration and defence tiles. Thor's yellow attack generates environment, which ties in with life.
I have no explanation for hoods yellow attack here.

Consider that colors seem to have more to do with the rationale for the ability. Tiles changing color would ordinarily be purple however when Dr Doom does it, he makes it happen with control. When Thor does it, he does it as a result of the consequence of the attack.

Dr doom controls the blue tiles to become black. He doesn't manipulate anything. It just happens.

Thor slams the earth with mjolnirs might. As a result all sorts of energies are kicked out of the earth (yellow - earth... volcanic ash is earthy and becomes charged when spewing into atmosphere). GSBW has red pistols. The pistols are intended to only deal damage, including destroying targeted tiles. Useful for removing enemy special tiles and doing some damage.

Yellow deals with the absorption and dissipation of energy. Thor dissipates energy with yellow. Captain America throws out defense tiles which absorb energy. The Hood has guns with big bullets (more energy, less piercing) that grab the surrounding tiles (absorbtion).

Black isn't necessarily evil but it can be. Anything to be done in darkness, without detection, is black. Usually deals with Enmity.

From
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=2262

Unknown

Still can't believe we have a Human Torch without a Supernova ability. It would have been easy to design too, pretty much the same as BWGS's sniper rifle except destroys all tiles, damages enemies as well as allies and likely should be a little cheaper say 12AP.

Phaserhawk

Rorex wrote:

Still can't believe we have a Human Torch without a Supernova ability. It would have been easy to design too, pretty much the same as BWGS's sniper rifle except destroys all tiles, damages enemies as well as allies and likely should be a little cheaper say 12AP.

I guess we know what Legendary Human Torch will have

Pats0132

So what does everyone think will be the optimal human torch. Guessing 5 reds will be mandatory.

Phaserhawk

Pats0132 wrote:

So what does everyone think will be the optimal human torch. Guessing 5 reds will be mandatory.

I've been wondering the same thing. I agree I think 5 in red will be a no brainer but depending on how black ends up I see 5/3/5 at least right now, but perhaps 5/4/4 depending on the damage increase in black and whether it will take more AP as you level or less, I'm guessing black as you level will steal AP from more colors, I don't see it taking away more than 30%, which means black is going to be mean as hell for damage ratio, which is why I could even see 5/5/3.

NorthernPolarity

Pats0132 wrote:

So what does everyone think will be the optimal human torch. Guessing 5 reds will be mandatory.

Too hard to know without seeing how each ability scales with level. I"m guessing his green ends up being better.

Unknown

My guess for optimal build will be 5/3/5.

The black strike tiles might be neat but I'm not sure if people will be happy to part with 30% of blue purple and yellow AP. This value could increase or decrease with higher levels, but if it's decreased then it'll be a negligible loss.

I've not read the posts in this thread but I just came up with a thought, so I apollogise if it's been mentioned before.
HT's red ability strikes me as an ANTI-Daken ability. This ability destroys red tiles. It's not specified if it's only basic red tiles. If it includes special red tiles then I think this ability will be an awesome way to counter red strike tiles. I'm hoping that at level 5 his red will destroy at least 5 red tiles. Obviously this will prevent you from "re-loading" this attack as easily as there will be fewer red on the board.

Unknown

Milkrain wrote:

My guess for optimal build will be 5/3/5.

The black strike tiles might be neat but I'm not sure if people will be happy to part with 30% of blue purple and yellow AP. This value could increase or decrease with higher levels, but if it's decreased then it'll be a negligible loss.

I've not read the posts in this thread but I just came up with a thought, so I apollogise if it's been mentioned before.
HT's red ability strikes me as an ANTI-Daken ability. This ability destroys red tiles. It's not specified if it's only basic red tiles. If it includes special red tiles then I think this ability will be an awesome way to counter red strike tiles. I'm hoping that at level 5 his red will destroy at least 5 red tiles. Obviously this will prevent you from "re-loading" this attack as easily as there will be fewer red on the board.

His red creates ap so I doubt the number of tiles will increase much if at all. As is you'll only need two red matches to cast it again.

Phaserhawk

beezer37_84 wrote:

Milkrain wrote:

My guess for optimal build will be 5/3/5.

The black strike tiles might be neat but I'm not sure if people will be happy to part with 30% of blue purple and yellow AP. This value could increase or decrease with higher levels, but if it's decreased then it'll be a negligible loss.

I've not read the posts in this thread but I just came up with a thought, so I apollogise if it's been mentioned before.
HT's red ability strikes me as an ANTI-Daken ability. This ability destroys red tiles. It's not specified if it's only basic red tiles. If it includes special red tiles then I think this ability will be an awesome way to counter red strike tiles. I'm hoping that at level 5 his red will destroy at least 5 red tiles. Obviously this will prevent you from "re-loading" this attack as easily as there will be fewer red on the board.

His red creates ap so I doubt the number of tiles will increase much if at all. As is you'll only need two red matches to cast it again.

It didn't say it creats AP, it just destorys red tiles, we will have to see.

NorthernPolarity

Phaserhawk wrote:

beezer37_84 wrote:

Milkrain wrote:

My guess for optimal build will be 5/3/5.

The black strike tiles might be neat but I'm not sure if people will be happy to part with 30% of blue purple and yellow AP. This value could increase or decrease with higher levels, but if it's decreased then it'll be a negligible loss.

I've not read the posts in this thread but I just came up with a thought, so I apollogise if it's been mentioned before.
HT's red ability strikes me as an ANTI-Daken ability. This ability destroys red tiles. It's not specified if it's only basic red tiles. If it includes special red tiles then I think this ability will be an awesome way to counter red strike tiles. I'm hoping that at level 5 his red will destroy at least 5 red tiles. Obviously this will prevent you from "re-loading" this attack as easily as there will be fewer red on the board.

His red creates ap so I doubt the number of tiles will increase much if at all. As is you'll only need two red matches to cast it again.

It didn't say it creats AP, it just destorys red tiles, we will have to see.

IceIX confirmed that it generated AP on a random thread somewhere.

Unknown

NorthernPolarity wrote:

IceIX confirmed that it generated AP on a random thread somewhere.

That's even better then. Do we know if it'll destroy special red tiles too or just basic?

Unknown

Milkrain wrote:

NorthernPolarity wrote:

IceIX confirmed that it generated AP on a random thread somewhere.

That's even better then. Do we know if it'll destroy special red tiles too or just basic?

IceIX wrote:

Yep, he's a glass cannon type. And yes, the Red ability generates AP, so it costs 8 but you get up to 2 refunded.

No mention if its just basic but given in the descrpition it doesn't say just basic I think we can assume it targets special tiles as well.

At 5 red covers I expect Human Torch to have a base damage of 461. At max lvl I expect it would do 2,885 damage with the refund this is the highest damage per AP red ability in the game. Effectively 481 damage per AP.

I have to give mischiefmaker props all the numbers provided seem dead on no matter what sort of statisitical analysis I do. The flame jet will likely be slightly higher perhaps even as high as 238 damage with a maximium of 1950 damage depends on how the future covers scale the multiplier. This is IMO the second best green ability in the game. Lazy Thor being first.

Inferno should do 200 per tile with 8 tiles for 10 AP. 1600 damage per turn makes it probably the second best black ability in the game.

All of this in my opinion make Human Torch a must have. 5/5/3 will likely be the best build as the AI will undoubtably not use flame jet well. At lvl 3 I would guestimate flame jet to do 163 per green AP up to a maximium of 1402 Damage which is still pretty good considering how stackable it is. Just got to wait and see what happens when you can't afford the upkeep.

Unknown

Fireball does destroy strike tiles