*** Human Torch (Classic) ***

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Comments

  • I posted this in the Hot Shot thread since people were talking about builds there as well:


    I'm built 535 currently, but that's just the way the covers have come for me. I've sold off 3-4 reds, and gotten exactly 8 total black and green. But I figured actually looking at the numbers would be good, so here is some back of the envelope maths:

    For the purpose of this, we'll be living in Magical Christmas World, where you always get 8 attack tiles, and everything survives for 5 turns. You will wait until you have 10 green and 10 black AP before casting them, and you'll cast both at the same time.

    166 Torch with 5 green covers, 3 Black and 10 of each AP:
    Green: 1350 + 1080 + 810 + 540 + 270 = 4050
    Black: (157*8) X 5 turns = 6280
    Grand total = 10330

    166 Torch with 5 Black covers 3 Green and 10 of each AP:
    Green: 935 + 748 + 561 + 374 + 187 = 2805
    Black: (226*8) x 5 turns = 9040
    Grand total = 11845

    166 Torch with 4 green, 4 black, and 10 AP of each:
    Green: 1145 + 916 + 687 + 458 + 229 = 3435
    Black: (191*8) x 5 turns = 7640
    Grand total = 11075



    So on paper, it actually looks like the 535 build would be the worst, no? Except I think it's deceptive. Given how powerful flame jet can be, it may be a skill you fire off with only 6 or 7 green, knowing that the tile could just sit on the board and fire off anytime you make another green match. Given how nicely he pairs with Daken, the lower cost of flame jet means you'll likely be taking advantage of Daken strike tiles much earlier than you would with inferno's attack tiles.

    The black while more potent in theory, does deplete your other colors which can be a bummer if you're planning on actually using those colors. On top of that, you're not guaranteed 8 attack tiles, and they are prone to being matched off, often more than one at a time.
  • vudu3vudu3 Posts: 940 Critical Contributor
    Well if you're cross-posting I might as well do the same! icon_e_wink.gif

    I want to live in a Magical Christmas World. Unfortunately, I don't. So let's play with the assumptions a bit and see how it affects the numbers. icon_mrgreen.gif

    Let's assume that you only get 6 attack tiles to begin with and 1 is matched after each of the first 3 turns. Everything else stated above stays the same.

    166 Torch with 5 green covers, 3 Black and 10 of each AP:
    Green: 1350 + 1080 + 810 + 540 + 270 = 4050
    Black: (157) X 5 turns = 3140
    Grand total = 7190

    166 Torch with 5 Black covers 3 Green and 10 of each AP:
    Green: 935 + 748 + 561 + 374 + 187 = 2805
    Black: (226) x 5 turns = 4520
    Grand total = 7325

    166 Torch with 4 green, 4 black, and 10 AP of each:
    Green: 1145 + 916 + 687 + 458 + 229 = 3435
    Black: (191) x 5 turns = 3820
    Grand total = 7255

    These numbers are so close I can honestly say who cares? We could try playing with the green numbers a bit by assuming that you make additional green matches throughout but that seems like a stretch because any assumptions you make will be pulled out of thin air. I think the scenario I laid out for black above is probably fairly close to a typical game.

    I'm calling 5/4/4 the best build because it's the most versatile but I definitely won't fault anyone for running 5/5/3 or 5/3/5. 5/3/5 might be slightly better if you run Torch with a heavy blue/purple/yellow user.
  • The only time I run Torch primary is if it's part of a limited roster event, and it's more likely that there's another guy with a better green than another guy with a better black (can only be BP), and in limited roster events you absolutely should run a team like Thor + HT + whoever if Thor and HT are your two available 3*s.
  • NorthernPolarityNorthernPolarity Posts: 3,531 Chairperson of the Boards
    vudu3 wrote:
    Well if you're cross-posting I might as well do the same! icon_e_wink.gif

    I want to live in a Magical Christmas World. Unfortunately, I don't. So let's play with the assumptions a bit and see how it affects the numbers. icon_mrgreen.gif

    Let's assume that you only get 6 attack tiles to begin with and 1 is matched after each of the first 3 turns. Everything else stated above stays the same.

    166 Torch with 5 green covers, 3 Black and 10 of each AP:
    Green: 1350 + 1080 + 810 + 540 + 270 = 4050
    Black: (157) X 5 turns = 3140
    Grand total = 7190

    166 Torch with 5 Black covers 3 Green and 10 of each AP:
    Green: 935 + 748 + 561 + 374 + 187 = 2805
    Black: (226) x 5 turns = 4520
    Grand total = 7325

    166 Torch with 4 green, 4 black, and 10 AP of each:
    Green: 1145 + 916 + 687 + 458 + 229 = 3435
    Black: (191) x 5 turns = 3820
    Grand total = 7255

    These numbers are so close I can honestly say who cares? We could try playing with the green numbers a bit by assuming that you make additional green matches throughout but that seems like a stretch because any assumptions you make will be pulled out of thin air. I think the scenario I laid out for black above is probably fairly close to a typical game.

    I'm calling 5/4/4 the best build because it's the most versatile but I definitely won't fault anyone for running 5/5/3 or 5/3/5. 5/3/5 might be slightly better if you run Torch with a heavy blue/purple/yellow user.

    Given how those adjusted numbers are so similar, i would say that its more evidence why 5/3/5 is preferable to 5/5/3 because of one simple reason: inferno costs 10ap, flame jets (realistically) costs 9. The difference between 9 and 10 ap is on average 2-3 turns, which means that flame jets gets out 2-3 turns faster than inferno without the significant drawback of inferno (which slows down your other abilities by 1-2 turns roughly).
  • vudu3vudu3 Posts: 940 Critical Contributor
    Given how those adjusted numbers are so similar, i would say that its more evidence why 5/3/5 is preferable to 5/5/3 because of one simple reason: inferno costs 10ap, flame jets (realistically) costs 9. The difference between 9 and 10 ap is on average 2-3 turns, which means that flame jets gets out 2-3 turns faster than inferno without the significant drawback of inferno (which slows down your other abilities by 1-2 turns roughly).
    That's a very good point.

    Let me counter with another--if the green CD tile is matched quickly (in the example above, sooner than in 5 turns) then you're spending another 5 AP to place a new one. Meanwhile, my example assumes that the attack tiles will get matched on a regular basis and even if 7 of them are gone within a few turns you're still left with one and that's all it takes to ride the strike tile train.

    That said, if you're pairing with Daken and you want to take advantage of the strike tiles you'll need to make green matches anyway. You can get a Flame Jet going with a half dozen strike tiles in as little as 3 matches. Inferno's going to take at least 6 matches to do the same (assuming you can pick up a stray black AP somewhere).

    5/4/4 or 5/3/5 seem like the best options, depending on who you pair him with. 5/5/3 just seems too limiting--even if you never plan to use Flame Jet I think it's better to go with 5/4/4 just in case.
  • NorthernPolarityNorthernPolarity Posts: 3,531 Chairperson of the Boards
    Phantron wrote:
    The only time I run Torch primary is if it's part of a limited roster event, and it's more likely that there's another guy with a better green than another guy with a better black (can only be BP), and in limited roster events you absolutely should run a team like Thor + HT + whoever if Thor and HT are your two available 3*s.

    I run torch a lot while pushing in pvp (before the 800 point sentry only zone) and in pve. If you roster is limited to a point where you need to place lazythor and torch on the same team then yeah, 5/5/3 is better. Im thinking more about the configurations where you have a fuller roster, in which case i dont see you ever not running torch with daken since theyre a match made in heaven, in which case green is clearly better. Another thing with black is that even though its fine, its rarely going to be in your top 2 abilities/colors, which means that you arent going to really have the ap to use it. Even if you are running just torch/lt, are you ever matching black over red/yellow? Id rather have the build that works best when pairing him up with characters that compliment him the best (torch/hood/bp sort of), all of which has green as a no brainer.
  • PhaserhawkPhaserhawk Posts: 2,676 Chairperson of the Boards
    Human Torch is quite easy. 5 red and the rest don't matter. There are so many hypothetical configurations that it's almost possible to find the right build (which there isn't). I opted 5/4/4 because it plays a nice balance between the two. However I think there is a better way to look at torch. Don't think of black and green as the same DoT skill. Think of green as DoT and black as a finisher. Black does do the dmg at end of turn which can win you games. If you view black as a finisher and green as a DoT it helps make your decision easier as it helps you figure out what you value more. If you want to be able to cast one and know the guy will die than go 5/5/3. If you don't like losing AP and you like having a constant cheap source if dmg , then go 5/3/5. If u like the idea if both go. 5/4/4
  • NorthernPolarityNorthernPolarity Posts: 3,531 Chairperson of the Boards
    Phaserhawk wrote:
    Human Torch is quite easy. 5 red and the rest don't matter. There are so many hypothetical configurations that it's almost possible to find the right build (which there isn't). I opted 5/4/4 because it plays a nice balance between the two. However I think there is a better way to look at torch. Don't think of black and green as the same DoT skill. Think of green as DoT and black as a finisher. Black does do the dmg at end of turn which can win you games. If you view black as a finisher and green as a DoT it helps make your decision easier as it helps you figure out what you value more. If you want to be able to cast one and know the guy will die than go 5/5/3. If you don't like losing AP and you like having a constant cheap source if dmg , then go 5/3/5. If u like the idea if both go. 5/4/4

    As much as i would like it to be this easy, it isnt. You cant consider black as a finisher because youre paying 10ap for a 1-1.2k finisher, which is horrendous. Compared to the mana efficiency of red, black needs at least 4+ turns before it gets even remotely comparable in terms of damage, so you need to treat it as a dot or else the ability is really bad. I will agree that the configuration after 5 red is signifncantly less important, but i think still think that 5/3/5 is optimal given the current cast of characters and assuming you have all of the characters. Makes more of a difference if you have daken, less otherwise.
  • vudu3vudu3 Posts: 940 Critical Contributor
    What is DoT?
  • vudu3 wrote:
    What is DoT?

    Damage over time you nab.

    And if you want call black as finisher then you can lose real finisher (Daken Chemical Reaction). Was using Daken/Human Torch combo for almost last 1,5 month and it happens to me several times.
  • The difference between 9 and 10 ap is on average 2-3 turns, which means that flame jets gets out 2-3 turns faster than inferno without the significant drawback of inferno (which slows down your other abilities by 1-2 turns roughly).
    Why do you say the difference between 9 and 10 AP is 2-3 turns?
  • NorthernPolarityNorthernPolarity Posts: 3,531 Chairperson of the Boards
    The difference between 9 and 10 ap is on average 2-3 turns, which means that flame jets gets out 2-3 turns faster than inferno without the significant drawback of inferno (which slows down your other abilities by 1-2 turns roughly).
    Why do you say the difference between 9 and 10 AP is 2-3 turns?

    This was me being handwavey and picking a number based off of my admittedly biased memories. Assuming that you prioritize a particular color above all other colors and match it whenever you can, i remember a tendency to get stuck a lot more at 9ap than 12ap. Im not sure about what the actual number is assuming a strategy like this, but i would imagine that the average turn it takes to get to 9 ap (aka 3 match-3s) is at least 2 turns faster than the average turn it takes to get to 12ap (4 match 3s). Again, that simulator that ive been putting off would be a great help towards answering these questions.
  • If you assume there's no available match for a certain color then you'd need to generate about 21-42 tiles to get another match of that color since 21 tiles would get you 3 of the new color on average but that's assuming you always get the match, and 42 would be the case where it's always 50/50 whether you or the opponent gets the match. If you take the average and assume 4 tiles are replaced per move then it's 31.5/2*4 ~= 4 turns.

    Note that Inferno does fire on the turn it's used whereas Flame Jet do not so a very rough estimate would be that Flame Jet (at 9 AP) is 3 turns faster than Inferno. But Inferno does considerably more damage on average compared to Flame Jet unless you're able to start a Flame Jet early and then collect more green AP without destroying the Flame Jet tile in the process, which can happen but is far from reliable.
  • NorthernPolarityNorthernPolarity Posts: 3,531 Chairperson of the Boards
    Phantron wrote:
    If you assume there's no available match for a certain color then you'd need to generate about 21-42 tiles to get another match of that color since 21 tiles would get you 3 of the new color on average but that's assuming you always get the match, and 42 would be the case where it's always 50/50 whether you or the opponent gets the match. If you take the average and assume 4 tiles are replaced per move then it's 31.5/2*4 ~= 4 turns.

    Note that Inferno does fire on the turn it's used whereas Flame Jet do not so a very rough estimate would be that Flame Jet (at 9 AP) is 3 turns faster than Inferno. But Inferno does considerably more damage on average compared to Flame Jet unless you're able to start a Flame Jet early and then collect more green AP without destroying the Flame Jet tile in the process, which can happen but is far from reliable.

    Thanks for the math! In a vacuum i think inferno and jets are similar in power level, but i still keep on going back to how daken exists in the meta and combos perfectly with torch: that pushes 5/3/5 above all other builds for me since you need the green anyways to make strike tiles. If youre using him with lazythor as a powerful red + support black then i can see 5/5/3 being better, but i imagine the daken synergy to be more important than that, especially because of how using daken is basically free health packwise with his true healing.
  • Daken's strike tile interacts with Flame Jet the same as an attack tile would so I don't see anything particularly advantageous about HT's green, other than its low cost but it's quite risky to use this at a low green AP total because you don't want to do it while a green match is available and have it matched, or use it at low green AP with no available match and then unable to fuel the green.

    I feel in a vacuum his green is better than his black just because green is a color you've to prioritize almost always and he does benefit from stockpiling green AP, but HT is not a top tier PvP or PvE character so we have to consider his status in a specialized situation. The most likely scenario HT gets used is either as a limited roster character or a major boosted featured PvE character. In the latter case you have your full selection of roster though a major boosted HT probably has the top green/black power so any build is fine (and same in the case he's a featured PvP character). In the former case, the limited roster events usually have at most 2 available 3*, and statistically speaking you're more likely to have someone with a better green than a better black because only one character (BP) has a better black. While a team like HT + Thor normally doesn't make much sense, in a limited roster that team makes total sense since those are likely the only 3*s you can use. I know I get more usage out of green if there is no one with a better green available, but there are a lot of candidates for better green out there and statistically the odds are pretty good to have another 3* that has a better green.
  • PhaserhawkPhaserhawk Posts: 2,676 Chairperson of the Boards
    I never said to use black as a finisher. I said to think of it as a finisher, it's a means of determine your preferred build. I would never use it as a finisher although it does tend to do that. As I've said 5 red and then it doesn't matter.
  • OnesOwnGriefOnesOwnGrief Posts: 1,387 Chairperson of the Boards
    Phaserhawk wrote:
    I never said to use black as a finisher. I said to think of it as a finisher, it's a means of determine your preferred build. I would never use it as a finisher although it does tend to do that. As I've said 5 red and then it doesn't matter.
    The problem may have been the wording. Using the word finisher in a game where you are doing damage to other characters would imply being the kill shot with big burst damage. Something thats game ending right then. Which in that case, none of Torch's skills could be considered finishers but quick dps. Everyone agrees 5 Red is completely optimal.
  • wymtimewymtime Posts: 3,648 Chairperson of the Boards
    When I go into a match I basicly plan on using 2 abilities for each character, so when I am using torch red is #1 and green or black will be #2. Since they will both do solid damage I think 5,4,4 is best. If you are using Patch, Black will be torches priority. If you are using Hulk and BP, Green will be his priority. He has 3 solid abilities, but 2 are very AP needy. If you want him to go with a lot of characters 5,4,4 is the most versitale build. Not many 3* are great at 5,4,4 combo but he is.
  • PhaserhawkPhaserhawk Posts: 2,676 Chairperson of the Boards
    So with the Daken tile strength respec, does this push Torch into 5/5/3 over 5/3/5 or 5/4/4 now? With Daken not able to tank green for Torch anymore, you are not going to want to expose HT to the damage, but it's hard to justify giving up green considering how powerful the color is. Daken's color shift really hurt Torch probably more than any other since he doesn't have the hitpoints to try and take green, meaning you will have to pair him with another green user and more than likely you are going to want to use that green over anyone else.

    Human Torch got really down graded. You could easily run Daken/Torch and know that you could match red here or there since Flame Jet was very strong and finish guys off. Now you have to expose Torch on red and green unless you run him with another green user, and at that point that other green user

    Patch, Thor, Sentry, She-Hulk, Hulk, Punisher, Storm, Rags, Widow, Beast, X-Force, IW

    Only a few of these are competitive, Thor, Sentry, X-Force, Punisher, Patch and sometimes Hulk.

    Of those I would only see using Flame Jet over Hulk for sure and sometimes Patch or Punisher. If you pair him with a lower tier guy than it probably won't matter, but if Torch is someone you use regularly you might need to think on respecing him.
  • NorthernPolarityNorthernPolarity Posts: 3,531 Chairperson of the Boards
    Phaserhawk wrote:
    So with the Daken tile strength respec, does this push Torch into 5/5/3 over 5/3/5 or 5/4/4 now? With Daken not able to tank green for Torch anymore, you are not going to want to expose HT to the damage, but it's hard to justify giving up green considering how powerful the color is. Daken's color shift really hurt Torch probably more than any other since he doesn't have the hitpoints to try and take green, meaning you will have to pair him with another green user and more than likely you are going to want to use that green over anyone else.

    Human Torch got really down graded. You could easily run Daken/Torch and know that you could match red here or there since Flame Jet was very strong and finish guys off. Now you have to expose Torch on red and green unless you run him with another green user, and at that point that other green user

    Patch, Thor, Sentry, She-Hulk, Hulk, Punisher, Storm, Rags, Widow, Beast, X-Force, IW

    Only a few of these are competitive, Thor, Sentry, X-Force, Punisher, Patch and sometimes Hulk.

    Of those I would only see using Flame Jet over Hulk for sure and sometimes Patch or Punisher. If you pair him with a lower tier guy than it probably won't matter, but if Torch is someone you use regularly you might need to think on respecing him.

    I dunno, the thing about torch black is that it just feels bad. Dont get me wrong, its a decent ability, but i never see myself prioritizing it with red/green and the third character I dont think torch not tanking green is a death kneel for 5/3/5: you want to prioritize green early anyways which means youre not getting hit with abilities, so its not that bad. Sustained pushing still takes a hit but i think the green is brtter enough than the black still to make it worthwhile. I like bp/daken/torch or bp/hood/torch as my goto torch teams now.
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