*** Human Torch (Classic) ***

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Comments

  • There's no real effective strategy against HT especially when he has 2 Pyros behind him. Just hope he doesn't pop down a Flame Jet early before you have something that can deal with it. Sometimes he'd drop a Flame Jet on turn 2 and not even Magneto can stop that. His HPs are low, so as long as he doesn't drop an early Flame Jet it's usually manageable. All the skills that can deal with green CDs needs at least 5 blue (Redwing, Magnetic Field, Chemical Reaction if you're desperate) and the other options requires way more AP than he will have by turn 3.
  • SpoitSpoit Posts: 3,441 Chairperson of the Boards
    Yeah, if he drops a flame jet too early that you cant get to, you might consider retreating. It's probably actually less health lost than going a couple turns trying to take care of it
  • I guess mine is still too low level, as I didn't have much of a problem dealing with him, even after he launched green and black, which combined with my zerker still made the fight doable.
  • Emeryt wrote:
    I guess mine is still too low level, as I didn't have much of a problem dealing with him, even after he launched green and black, which combined with my zerker still made the fight doable.

    That fight isn't bad until he's in the 200+ range where he can drop a Flame Jet on turn 2, and then it'll burn one of your guys to death next turn before you can possibly do anything do about it.
  • HHmm, just a question. For human torch's green skill. After casting before your turn, does the damage stack with strike tiles ?
  • Flame Jet is described as costing 1 green AP per turn.

    I don't see that happening. To be precise, I see the green reserving fleetingly increase by one, apply damage based on increased value, then decrease by one.

    Anyone else?

    edit: actually, it happens only when a single counter is on the board.
  • DayvDayv Posts: 4,449 Chairperson of the Boards
    It's always worked correctly for me.

    Are you seeing this with Human Torch on your side, or the enemy?

    If enemy, is he paired with a goon that generates green?
  • On my side, I noticed the number of green AP staying at 3 (bumpus up to 4, goes back down to 3, turn after turn).
    On computer side, the number stays at 1.

    I tried once with three counters on the board, it functioned correctly and brought my green AP and the damage to 0.
  • CraggerCragger Posts: 316 Mover and Shaker
    do you play with Hood?
  • Thanks for the answers everyone.
    @Cragger: I'll pay closer attention to the rest of the team, I started suspecting as much.
  • NorthernPolarityNorthernPolarity Posts: 3,531 Chairperson of the Boards
    After playing him for a while, I'm convinced that 5/3/5 is the best build. It's obvious that 5 red is a given since that's his best ability, so the choices we have are 5/5/3, 5/4/4, or 5/3/5. I think 5/3/5 edges out the other two for a couple of reasons:
    1. Daken synergy - Daken is pretty much the best partner for Torch when it comes to pushing since he tanks both green/black for torchy, and strike tiles synergize amazingly with black and green. However, since you're playing Daken, you're prioritizing green a lot more than you are prioritizing black, so you're always going to be casting torchies green before his black in that case.
    2. Black's drawback with the 30% off of other colors kinda hurts. It's not a deal breaker, but it has strings attached.
    3. Black isn't powerful enough to be one of your high priority colors, and is mediocre when used late during the match. The way I look at character abilities now is that for any given team, you can typically have 2-3 colors with abilities that you will highly prioritize (thunder strike, rage of the panther, etc.) and try to use ASAP, and then 2-3 secondary abilities that you match if you can't get your primary colors which are more incidental and typically used later on, if at all. Since inferno is never going to be a high priority ability (getting fireball and your other haymakers is just way more important), it's going to be one of these secondary abilities. The issue with this is twofold: 1. it costs 10AP, which is a lot of AP for a color that you aren't prioritizing. 2. Attack tiles decrease in value as the game goes on as they require time to do their thing, so getting them late is suboptimal.
    4. For the people who say there are characters with better green abilities, are you really running Torch with LazyThor/Patch/Sentry? While I guess its fine that Torch has red/black (although black is a supplimentary color on these teams), Torch doesn't really have enough synergy with any of these guys for me to really put him on a team with the others, so I don't think that this is much of a consideration. The teams I run with Torch tend to involve C. Mags, Daken, and Hood, of which Torch is the sole green user on the team.
  • ThanosThanos Posts: 686 Critical Contributor
    Thanks for the analysis NP, was having trouble figuring out which way to go. 5/3/5 it is!
  • OnesOwnGriefOnesOwnGrief Posts: 1,387 Chairperson of the Boards
    Human Torch is seriously one of those characters that is leaning me more and more away from rainbow teams. He has nice skills that are strong but is very squishy. If he dies, you have 3 colors gone that you'd want someone else to capitalize on. So many other powerful Green, Black, and Red users you could pair him with to put that AP to use.

    Edit: Personally I'm going with 5/5/3 because I want the bleed damage when facing characters like Patch and Daken. They are less of a problem if they can't heal that health back and blowing up Red is a hard counter to Daken's strike tiles.
  • JathroJathro Posts: 323 Mover and Shaker
    553 is the [more] dummy-proof version for defense. Let me know if you ever see the AI play Torch's green smartly
  • I think I'm ultimately going to go 5/4/4 when he's got the covers (mine's 4/4/5 right now and I have no idea when I'm going to get another red as hard to get as his covers have been for me). The main reason, as I see it, as that he's a strong utility person, but not a primary guy. I could see mainly teaming him up with Lazy Thor, Patch, or Black Panther. With the first two I'd want his black at 5, with BP I'd want his green at 5, and it's easier to keep him flexible at 4 at both since I don't think his 4 to 5 differences are as bad as some people's.
  • TharosTharos Posts: 129
    edited August 2014
    Disclaimer All of this is pure speculation. My HT is still 4/4/3, and with only two maxed 3* (LT and Punisher), I am not really able to test Human Torch with a full power.

    5 Red is a must. So it's between black and green:

    Black
    pros
      - Very few "good" characters have an active black now, it is always nice to have somethin to use with all this AP - If not cleared, it's a constant damage source: always nice to take - 8 tiles (if lucky) takes more move to clear than only one green
    cons
      - These attack tiles grouped at the center are easy to clear. No all, but a good amount: two well-placed match-3, and there is nearly no damage left - With -30% of blue, purple and yellow, you must take care when using it. Even more if you team him with the "wrong" characters

    Green
    pros
      - Cheap to start the engine, you decide how much it will cost by fuelling it when you want/can. This power cost is more like a rent than a one-time buyout. - One more green power! You have a power that requires having a lot of green AP in bank. After its death, you can reuse it. And if he does not die, well, that's a lot of damage each turn. I see that being a green power is a strength: it would have been much less usefull in yellow I think. - Great damage if kept/fuelled long enough
    cons
      - Expensive if you want to use it at its full power (i.e. use it as your main damage source) - AP drain is hard to use correctly if you plan to use your other character's green power while alive - Single random green countdown may be way too easy to clear

    For both colors
      - Going from 3 to 5 only change the damage output, so all pros/cons are still valid, no matter what the build is - The AI will fail to use any of it effectively on defense - When attacking, you will use the skill effectively, because you are smarter than AI: you will not start green with 6 AP and no green on the board, or you will not launch black when having full blue/yellow ready to be used

    Conclusion
    I really think that unless there is a "perfect team" using him (I do not think of any), you have to do with his cons. Going to 5 green or 5 black does not really matter, it is a personnal preference. I like its "toolbox" style, so I am trying to hav him at 5/4/4, but I do not think the 5/x/x build matters a lot with him.

    edit: changed the description of my green "pros: Cheap / cons: Expensive" Thanks for pointing this out
  • mags1587mags1587 Posts: 1,020 Chairperson of the Boards
    Another issue with black is that for me, there always seems to be other special tiles (or team-up tiles) in the attack tile spots when I want to cast black. So I have to wait and try and clear some of those tiles away and it's just not worth it. Especially with the 30% drain. Making sure there are no green matches on the board before I cast green is much easier.
  • OnesOwnGriefOnesOwnGrief Posts: 1,387 Chairperson of the Boards
    Dude, you can't have a polar opposite description for a pro and con of the same ability. <.< I would suggest going back over your Green pro/con list.
  • vudu3vudu3 Posts: 940 Critical Contributor
    I'm still torn between green and black.

    One positive for black that I haven't seen mentioned--at least in a while--is that the attack tiles stick around if Torch is downed but the green CD tile disappears. As Polarity mentioned, paired with Daken Torch's green is a beast but if Torch is the only green user on your team and takes a critical hit the CD tile is gone and you suddenly have all this green in the bank that's wasted. Meanwhile, even if 7 of your attack tiles get matched away by the second turn the one remaining will still trigger all strike tiles on the board every single turn.

    EDIT: I just did the math and it looks like both black and green get a 22% damage boost going from 3 covers to 4 and an 18% damage boost going from 4 covers to 5. 5/4/4 seems to be the best build unless you plan to rarely use either black or green.
  • OnesOwnGriefOnesOwnGrief Posts: 1,387 Chairperson of the Boards
    Green is also easily matched and asking to be cascaded or clapped away if Hulk is involved. Torch is one of those characters that will easily set off Anger with his skills. So that basically discounts one defensive character.
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