*** Human Torch (Classic) ***

Unknown

I need to respec as my build is 5/4/4. Black is meh and I prefer green especially on desert or with a green generator like IM40, thor or GSBW. If you lay 2 green countdown tiles down the damage is crazy I did it in PVE when Psylocke stole green AP and I had made enough green matches. It was game over for the H.A.M.M.E.R. His red is quicker then Cap's but Cap's is a better all rounder and far safer on defense. Johnny boy is strictly for attack and quick wins. Cap will make teams suffer if the game drags on, his red will hurt you badly and if he is teamed with hood he pretty much tanks for him which means intimidation for quicker countdowns and yellow for AP generation with blue stealing what it can between goes.

Unknown

Polares wrote:

I am a little bit underwhelmed by Inferno (black). It is a bit expensive if you use any of the other colors (and allmost anybody uses at least blue), and is very unreliable playing against strike tiles, shields, etc. He allmost NEVER places 8 attack tiles (more like 6 or 5) so I think that maybe green is better.

Do we know how black and Green are at level 3-4? Right now I think the best build is 5/3/5 or maybe 5/4/4 because doesn't seem there is a big difference from 4 to 5 in green or black

I disagree, Inferno is pretty powerful. Its just not a lazy ability that you use without thinking, you have to be somewhat stategic. I personally get inferno down as quick as possible then drop some fireballs which casue the circle of attack tile to shift from the original postion. Then mid game pop off whatever yellow, blue, and purple abilities I can then go for another inferno. With this strategy and some covers fights are very fast.

Some stats from my level 88 4/3/2 Torch.

Fireball 8AP 1670 damage plus destroy 2 red tiles generating AP (5th cover 1973)
Inferno 10 AP 92 damage per attack tile a turn (4th cover 112)
Flame Jet 5 AP 85 damage per AP per tile with a max of 769 (3rd cover 110 per with 988 max)

I think Phantron has it right his biggest weakness is defense. That said he is very fast on offense and with a good support team is going to be a painful fight on defense. I personally have been running him with Hood and OBW and its just nasty. Hood is a must especially if your going for a 5 cover green build as it essentially removes the upkeep costs. On defense the opponent is going to likely take out Hood first but by the time they get Hood down (given his ability to drag the other team out) HT is going to have killed someone. Dispite what others have said I think this is the type of character you build a team around.

If either a Lazy Daken or Lazy OBW come out, HT will be a standard. As it is now he is undoubtably the best Damage over Time specialist in the game with the best red ability. Some people might think Caps red is better but your wrong. By the time you get the 11AP for Cap, HT is one match away from doing 2 fireballs which will do almost double the damage. Also in my experience if you playing HT and trying to match red you really dont have to worry about your opponent getting any red abilities off. As it is now I would say Hood is a must team mate and then use either OBW or Spidey. With OBW match proirities are black, red, purple, green. With Spidey blue, red, black, green. With a 5/3/5 build or more green covers then black switch the black and greens order.

Dormammu

I don't know... Torch/Hood/OBW is just a little too squishy for me to be comfortable with.

Phaserhawk

Rorex wrote:

Polares wrote:

I am a little bit underwhelmed by Inferno (black). It is a bit expensive if you use any of the other colors (and allmost anybody uses at least blue), and is very unreliable playing against strike tiles, shields, etc. He allmost NEVER places 8 attack tiles (more like 6 or 5) so I think that maybe green is better.

Do we know how black and Green are at level 3-4? Right now I think the best build is 5/3/5 or maybe 5/4/4 because doesn't seem there is a big difference from 4 to 5 in green or black

I disagree, Inferno is pretty powerful. Its just not a lazy ability that you use without thinking, you have to be somewhat stategic. I personally get inferno down as quick as possible then drop some fireballs which casue the circle of attack tile to shift from the original postion. Then mid game pop off whatever yellow, blue, and purple abilities I can then go for another inferno. With this strategy and some covers fights are very fast.

Some stats from my level 88 4/3/2 Torch.

Fireball 8AP 1670 damage plus destroy 2 red tiles generating AP (5th cover 1973)
Inferno 10 AP 92 damage per attack tile a turn (4th cover 112)
Flame Jet 5 AP 85 damage per AP per tile with a max of 769 (3rd cover 110 per with 988 max)

I think Phantron has it right his biggest weakness is defense. That said he is very fast on offense and with a good support team is going to be a painful fight on defense. I personally have been running him with Hood and OBW and its just nasty. Hood is a must especially if your going for a 5 cover green build as it essentially removes the upkeep costs. On defense the opponent is going to likely take out Hood first but by the time they get Hood down (given his ability to drag the other team out) HT is going to have killed someone. Dispite what others have said I think this is the type of character you build a team around.

If either a Lazy Daken or Lazy OBW come out, HT will be a standard. As it is now he is undoubtably the best Damage over Time specialist in the game with the best red ability. Some people might think Caps red is better but your wrong. By the time you get the 11AP for Cap, HT is one match away from doing 2 fireballs which will do almost double the damage. Also in my experience if you playing HT and trying to match red you really dont have to worry about your opponent getting any red abilities off. As it is now I would say Hood is a must team mate and then use either OBW or Spidey. With OBW match proirities are black, red, purple, green. With Spidey blue, red, black, green. With a 5/3/5 build or more green covers then black switch the black and greens order.

Human Torch Fireball 8AP=2891 dmg, net 2 Red AP
need 6 more for second casting

Captain 11AP=3450 dmg, net return 10AP
need 1 more for second casting

Lets assume you make a 3 tile red match every turn
Turn1=Both 3
Turn2=Both 6
Turn3=Both 9 Human Torch casts nets 2 red
Turn4=HT 5, Cap 12 Capt casts 3 tile CD
Turn5=HT8 casts nets 2 red, Cap 4 2 tile CD
Turn6=HT5, Cap 7 1 tile CD
Turn 7=HT8 casts nets 2, Cap 10, gets 10 AP back, total 20 casts shield has 9 left
Turn 8=Ht5, Cap 13, casts another shield 2 AP left 1 CD tile 2, another 3
==============================================================
Total Damage
HT==3 casts 8673 total dmg
Cap==3 casts 10350 total dmg

Lets take it to 10 turns
Turn 9=HT8, casts FB net 2 red, Capt 4, cd timer 1 and 2
Turn 10=HT5, Cap 7, cd timer 0, and 1 gets 10 AP, at 17 red now, casts again 6 red left

HT==4 casts 11564
Capt==4 casts 13800

Turn 11==HT8, casts net 2, Capt 9 AP, gets 10 back, casts again, timers are 2 and 3 with 7 AP left

and as the turns go on, Cap's damage gets bigger and bigger, as you can see you HT can do damage quicker, but Cap wins overall so no, HT's red is not better than CAPs, just 1 turn quicker. And if you throw in the Hood as you suggest, then Cap quickly outstrips HT in dmg

Unknown

Captain's red is better on offense but worse on defense compared to Fireball, so that means it's better in roughly 75% of all situations (you're always on offense in PvE).

Inferno is good but it's hard to beat Rage of the Panther. Likewise Flame Jet would have a hard time beating Call the Storm.

HT is in this unique situation where there are 3 very ovepowered characters who he barely loses to in each color he has, and all 3 of those characters are way better than him on defense (more HP + AI friendly skills except Captain). Sure you can just use him for offense, but Captain America is pretty nuts on offense too and still gets you more HPs on defense (his skills aren't AI friendly but neither is HT's green or black). I don't really see HT doing more damage without encroaching on the ridiculous range, so one of those 3 ovepowered guys have to give up some power. I think it's quite fair for HT to have #1 damage in one color and contention for #2 in two other colors, since he has low HPs and 2 of his skills are very AI unfriendly.

Phaserhawk

Phantron wrote:

Captain's red is better on offense but worse on defense compared to Fireball, so that means it's better in roughly 75% of all situations (you're always on offense in PvE).

Inferno is good but it's hard to beat Rage of the Panther. Likewise Flame Jet would have a hard time beating Call the Storm.

HT is in this unique situation where there are 3 very ovepowered characters who he barely loses to in each color he has, and all 3 of those characters are way better than him on defense (more HP + AI friendly skills except Captain). Sure you can just use him for offense, but Captain America is pretty nuts on offense too and still gets you more HPs on defense (his skills aren't AI friendly but neither is HT's green or black). I don't really see HT doing more damage without encroaching on the ridiculous range, so one of those 3 ovepowered guys have to give up some power. I think it's quite fair for HT to have #1 damage in one color and contention for #2 in two other colors, since he has low HPs and 2 of his skills are very AI unfriendly.

Agreed, unless the AI gets smarter on targets from caps red and blue, it does tend to miss good placements

Unknown

Phaserhawk wrote:

Rorex wrote:

Polares wrote:

I am a little bit underwhelmed by Inferno (black). It is a bit expensive if you use any of the other colors (and allmost anybody uses at least blue), and is very unreliable playing against strike tiles, shields, etc. He allmost NEVER places 8 attack tiles (more like 6 or 5) so I think that maybe green is better.

Do we know how black and Green are at level 3-4? Right now I think the best build is 5/3/5 or maybe 5/4/4 because doesn't seem there is a big difference from 4 to 5 in green or black

I disagree, Inferno is pretty powerful. Its just not a lazy ability that you use without thinking, you have to be somewhat stategic. I personally get inferno down as quick as possible then drop some fireballs which casue the circle of attack tile to shift from the original postion. Then mid game pop off whatever yellow, blue, and purple abilities I can then go for another inferno. With this strategy and some covers fights are very fast.

Some stats from my level 88 4/3/2 Torch.

Fireball 8AP 1670 damage plus destroy 2 red tiles generating AP (5th cover 1973)
Inferno 10 AP 92 damage per attack tile a turn (4th cover 112)
Flame Jet 5 AP 85 damage per AP per tile with a max of 769 (3rd cover 110 per with 988 max)

I think Phantron has it right his biggest weakness is defense. That said he is very fast on offense and with a good support team is going to be a painful fight on defense. I personally have been running him with Hood and OBW and its just nasty. Hood is a must especially if your going for a 5 cover green build as it essentially removes the upkeep costs. On defense the opponent is going to likely take out Hood first but by the time they get Hood down (given his ability to drag the other team out) HT is going to have killed someone. Dispite what others have said I think this is the type of character you build a team around.

If either a Lazy Daken or Lazy OBW come out, HT will be a standard. As it is now he is undoubtably the best Damage over Time specialist in the game with the best red ability. Some people might think Caps red is better but your wrong. By the time you get the 11AP for Cap, HT is one match away from doing 2 fireballs which will do almost double the damage. Also in my experience if you playing HT and trying to match red you really dont have to worry about your opponent getting any red abilities off. As it is now I would say Hood is a must team mate and then use either OBW or Spidey. With OBW match proirities are black, red, purple, green. With Spidey blue, red, black, green. With a 5/3/5 build or more green covers then black switch the black and greens order.

Human Torch Fireball 8AP=2891 dmg, net 2 Red AP
need 6 more for second casting

Captain 11AP=3450 dmg, net return 10AP
need 1 more for second casting

Lets assume you make a 3 tile red match every turn
Turn1=Both 3
Turn2=Both 6
Turn3=Both 9 Human Torch casts nets 2 red
Turn4=HT 5, Cap 12 Capt casts 3 tile CD
Turn5=HT8 casts nets 2 red, Cap 4 2 tile CD
Turn6=HT5, Cap 7 1 tile CD
Turn 7=HT8 casts nets 2, Cap 10, gets 10 AP back, total 20 casts shield has 9 left
Turn 8=Ht5, Cap 13, casts another shield 2 AP left 1 CD tile 2, another 3
==============================================================
Total Damage
HT==3 casts 8673 total dmg
Cap==3 casts 10350 total dmg

Lets take it to 10 turns
Turn 9=HT8, casts FB net 2 red, Capt 4, cd timer 1 and 2
Turn 10=HT5, Cap 7, cd timer 0, and 1 gets 10 AP, at 17 red now, casts again 6 red left

HT==4 casts 11564
Capt==4 casts 13800

Turn 11==HT8, casts net 2, Capt 9 AP, gets 10 back, casts again, timers are 2 and 3 with 7 AP left

and as the turns go on, Cap's damage gets bigger and bigger, as you can see you HT can do damage quicker, but Cap wins overall so no, HT's red is not better than CAPs, just 1 turn quicker. And if you throw in the Hood as you suggest, then Cap quickly outstrips HT in dmg

Correction On turn 4 HT should have 6AP. 9-8=1+2 net=3+3 (match)=6. This difference of one continues through out but wont effect damage.

I see what your saying and yes in optimal situations with unlimited AP the damage might be higher however countdown tiles get destroyed and you never going to get 3 red a turn. The first two maybe three turns sure but after that the red AP generation is going to dip and thats where Cap is going to stop generating damage and HT will continue thanks to his Black and Green. If either of the first 2 countdown tiles get destroyed your in rough shape with Cap. A single miracle cascade by you or the AI and Cap has to start over (as it will likely destroy the Countdown tile) while with HT a miracle cascade is going to help (as it will add new reds to the board). Personally I think HT is going to be a counter to Cap going forward by both removing red AP from the board and even occasionally the countdown itself. Also take a look at turn 7 by which point you have generated 21 AP total. HT has cast 3 fireballs equaling 8673 damage while Caps has only cast his shield twice for 6900 damage.

This is the real difference between the two, with HT their is no risk and he is fast, with Cap their is risk and his damage is slow but building. In PVE I have no doubt Cap is better based on his ability to overwrite tiles but when it comes to PVP and damage gerenation he is slow.

Unknown

Dormammu wrote:

I don't know... Torch/Hood/OBW is just a little too squishy for me to be comfortable with.

The Torch/Hood/OBW is ideal for PVE. Where Torch can dish out damage, OBW and Hood through stealing limit damage recieved to mostly match damage and OBW can heal and reset countdowns. When it comes to PVP thats when you replace OBW with Spidey. On offense DoT is quite effective against a stun locked team! Also Spideys purple is very good for damage mitagation and you can heal.

Unknown

It takes 14 red AP to throw 2 Fireballs, while 14 AP gets you 4 Star Spangled Avengers.

Yes Captain's red can be killed and it takes time but 14 red AP takes a while to build anyway, and it's really not rocket science to put it in a corner with no red anywhere near it. Captain can also stun on the side which should make it easier to keep the said tiles alive.

Unknown

Phantron wrote:

HT is in this unique situation where there are 3 very ovepowered characters who he barely loses to in each color he has, and all 3 of those characters are way better than him on defense (more HP + AI friendly skills except Captain).

I personally think LT needs to get nerfed his damage generation, board control, HP, and synergy are un-matched. LT is a one man army. Its not cool. All of his abilities are so simple that the AI can play him well.

BP is good, his rage of the panther is awesome but their isn't really much synergy between his abilities or board control. In my opinion he has one amazing skill, one good skill, and one other skill. Also unlike call the storm, rage of the panther has a down side which in my mind at least makes it more acceptable. When they AI plays him all you have to do is starve the AI of black and you will be okay.

Cap is more well rounded, has good board control as he can overwrite tiles but not a lot of synergy. He has two great abilities and a rediculously expensive yellow. The AI plays him poorly.

HT is all damage generation. All his abilities do great damage but the AI plays him bad.

In my opinion LT needs a nerf more than cMags and Spidey. While both cMags and Spidey distort the game at least they do so in such a way that its time consuming. Stun lock is not a fast way to win a game, neither is cMags endless match but LT can win matches in my opinion faster then any other character in the game.

Unknown

Rorex wrote:

Phantron wrote:

HT is in this unique situation where there are 3 very ovepowered characters who he barely loses to in each color he has, and all 3 of those characters are way better than him on defense (more HP + AI friendly skills except Captain).

I personally think LT needs to get nerfed his damage generation, board control, HP, and synergy are un-matched. LT is a one man army. Its not cool. All of his abilities are so simple that the AI can play him well.

BP is good, his rage of the panther is awesome but their isn't really much synergy between his abilities or board control. In my opinion he has one amazing skill, one good skill, and one other skill. Also unlike call the storm, rage of the panther has a down side which in my mind at least makes it more acceptable. When they AI plays him all you have to do is starve the AI of black and you will be okay.

Cap is more well rounded, has good board control as he can overwrite tiles but not a lot of synergy. He has two great abilities and a rediculously expensive yellow. The AI plays him poorly.

HT is all damage generation. All his abilities do great damage but the AI plays him bad.

In my opinion LT needs a nerf more than cMags and Spidey. While both cMags and Spidey distort the game at least they do so in such a way that its time consuming. Stun lock is not a fast way to win a game, neither is cMags endless match but LT can win matches in my opinion faster then any other character in the game.

I'll take my Patch + Classic Mags over any HT team you can field for kill speed.

Katai

Phantron wrote:

It takes 14 red AP to throw 2 Fireballs, while 14 AP gets you 4 Star Spangled Avengers.

Yes Captain's red can be killed and it takes time but 14 red AP takes a while to build anyway, and it's really not rocket science to put it in a corner with no red anywhere near it. Captain can also stun on the side which should make it easier to keep the said tiles alive.

2 Fireballs in the same turn versus 4 Star Spangled Avengers across 6 turns. Not exactly a fair comparison, especially when there's a huge advantage to nuking out one of the enemy's team members as early as possible.

Yeggy

Fireball lvl 5 max damage - 2891
Inferno lvl 5 max damage - 192 damage per tile
Flame Jet lvl 5 max damage - 231 damage per Green AP (2083 max)

Brought to you by Spoit.

EDIT: Spoit derped me. The joke's on me. =P Sorry for stealing your thunder IceIX

IceIX

Yeggy wrote:

Snip

I'm confused. I gave that info a few pages back. No, not trying to single you out Yeggy.
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5641&start=120#p110185

mischiefmaker

Pretty please could we also get max stats for ability levels 3 and 4? Would really help for those still trying to figure out how to build him.

Yeggy

mischiefmaker wrote:

Pretty please could we also get max stats for ability levels 3 and 4? Would really help for those still trying to figure out how to build him.

Fireball
3 - 2002
4 - 2446
Inferno
3 - 133 per tile
4 - 163 per tile
Flame Jet
3 - 160 per Green AP (max 1442)
4 - 196 (1762)

Unknown

Katai wrote:

Phantron wrote:

It takes 14 red AP to throw 2 Fireballs, while 14 AP gets you 4 Star Spangled Avengers.

Yes Captain's red can be killed and it takes time but 14 red AP takes a while to build anyway, and it's really not rocket science to put it in a corner with no red anywhere near it. Captain can also stun on the side which should make it easier to keep the said tiles alive.

2 Fireballs in the same turn versus 4 Star Spangled Avengers across 6 turns. Not exactly a fair comparison, especially when there's a huge advantage to nuking out one of the enemy's team members as early as possible.

You don't just magically collect 3 red each turn. There's probably a pretty long waiting time between your 4th red match (12) and 5th red match (15), but during that time you can get 2 Star Spangled Avenger out with 12 red AP assuming you didn't have exceptionally bad luck with your red tile placement, so at 12 red AP you can have 2 Star Spangled Avengers but only 1 Fireball. The next red match will allow a 3rd Star Spangled Avenger immediately (assuming the red tile was not destroyed) while HT is only his second fireball.

Unknown

I'm really glad that you all live in a magical place where you're able to do 4 red matches in 4 consecutive turns. Honestly on average, I consider myself lucky if I can do 2 red matches in a row.

Let's try to be realistic: usually you can't just concentrate on one color, especially in PvP. You have to actively deny your opponent's color, unless you want to have really nasty surprises from low-AP abilities. In these situations, if you don't factor in miracle cascades, Cap isn't going to fire his shield before turn.. let's be generous and say 6. Also, you still have a countdown tile that is going to take 3 turns to return your APs, if it doesn't get matched, or destroyed by a 4-in-a-row, or overwritten, or eaten by an opposing HT.

So yeah, THEORETICALLY Cap comes out first IF you get a perfect streak of red matches and IF your opponent is just sitting there doing nothing else but eating your damage. Practically? If I need a damage dealer, I'd take HT everytime. (Yes, I know that Cap is also a tank and can stun and protect, but we were just comparing their red ability, right? )

Polares

Kappei wrote:

I'm really glad that you all live in a magical place where you're able to do 4 red matches in 4 consecutive turns. Honestly on average, I consider myself lucky if I can do 2 red matches in a row.

Let's try to be realistic: usually you can't just concentrate on one color, especially in PvP. You have to actively deny your opponent's color, unless you want to have really nasty surprises from low-AP abilities. In these situations, if you don't factor in miracle cascades, Cap isn't going to fire his shield before turn.. let's be generous and say 6. Also, you still have a countdown tile that is going to take 3 turns to return your APs, if it doesn't get matched, or destroyed by a 4-in-a-row, or overwritten, or eaten by an opposing HT.

So yeah, THEORETICALLY Cap comes out first IF you get a perfect streak of red matches and IF your opponent is just sitting there doing nothing else but eating your damage. Practically? If I need a damage dealer, I'd take HT everytime. (Yes, I know that Cap is also a tank and can stun and protect, but we were just comparing their red ability, right? )

Aaaaand you have to add the damage of the two red tiles, so it is 2891 + 67 + 67 at max level.

Bottom line, both reds are great, some will prefer HT and some Caps. This is what I was saying.

Polares

Kappei wrote:

I'm really glad that you all live in a magical place where you're able to do 4 red matches in 4 consecutive turns. Honestly on average, I consider myself lucky if I can do 2 red matches in a row.

Let's try to be realistic: usually you can't just concentrate on one color, especially in PvP. You have to actively deny your opponent's color, unless you want to have really nasty surprises from low-AP abilities. In these situations, if you don't factor in miracle cascades, Cap isn't going to fire his shield before turn.. let's be generous and say 6. Also, you still have a countdown tile that is going to take 3 turns to return your APs, if it doesn't get matched, or destroyed by a 4-in-a-row, or overwritten, or eaten by an opposing HT.

So yeah, THEORETICALLY Cap comes out first IF you get a perfect streak of red matches and IF your opponent is just sitting there doing nothing else but eating your damage. Practically? If I need a damage dealer, I'd take HT everytime. (Yes, I know that Cap is also a tank and can stun and protect, but we were just comparing their red ability, right? )

Aaaaand you have to add the damage of the two red tiles, so it is 2891 + 67 + 67 at max level.

Bottom line, both reds are great, some will prefer HT and some Caps. This is what I was saying.

Rorex wrote:

...

I disagree, Inferno is pretty powerful. Its just not a lazy ability that you use without thinking, you have to be somewhat stategic. I personally get inferno down as quick as possible then drop some fireballs which casue the circle of attack tile to shift from the original postion. Then mid game pop off whatever yellow, blue, and purple abilities I can then go for another inferno. With this strategy and some covers fights are very fast.

The problem with Inferno is that it could have a big cost (the 30% part), and it could be very unreliable (if there are enviromental tiles, or special tiles in the ring area). Green has its problems too (the cost and all depends on one tile, if it is destroyed you have to cast it again), but in general I think it is better.

After seeing that there is not anything special in the level 5 of each of these abilitties maybe I'll go 5/4/4 but I am still undecided. I will be 5/4/4 or 5/3/5