vudu3 wrote: Well if you're cross-posting I might as well do the same! I want to live in a Magical Christmas World. Unfortunately, I don't. So let's play with the assumptions a bit and see how it affects the numbers. Let's assume that you only get 6 attack tiles to begin with and 1 is matched after each of the first 3 turns. Everything else stated above stays the same. 166 Torch with 5 green covers, 3 Black and 10 of each AP: Green: 1350 + 1080 + 810 + 540 + 270 = 4050 Black: (157) X 5 turns = 3140Grand total = 7190 166 Torch with 5 Black covers 3 Green and 10 of each AP: Green: 935 + 748 + 561 + 374 + 187 = 2805 Black: (226) x 5 turns = 4520Grand total = 7325 166 Torch with 4 green, 4 black, and 10 AP of each: Green: 1145 + 916 + 687 + 458 + 229 = 3435 Black: (191) x 5 turns = 3820Grand total = 7255 These numbers are so close I can honestly say who cares? We could try playing with the green numbers a bit by assuming that you make additional green matches throughout but that seems like a stretch because any assumptions you make will be pulled out of thin air. I think the scenario I laid out for black above is probably fairly close to a typical game. I'm calling 5/4/4 the best build because it's the most versatile but I definitely won't fault anyone for running 5/5/3 or 5/3/5. 5/3/5 might be slightly better if you run Torch with a heavy blue/purple/yellow user.
NorthernPolarity wrote: Given how those adjusted numbers are so similar, i would say that its more evidence why 5/3/5 is preferable to 5/5/3 because of one simple reason: inferno costs 10ap, flame jets (realistically) costs 9. The difference between 9 and 10 ap is on average 2-3 turns, which means that flame jets gets out 2-3 turns faster than inferno without the significant drawback of inferno (which slows down your other abilities by 1-2 turns roughly).
Phantron wrote: The only time I run Torch primary is if it's part of a limited roster event, and it's more likely that there's another guy with a better green than another guy with a better black (can only be BP), and in limited roster events you absolutely should run a team like Thor + HT + whoever if Thor and HT are your two available 3*s.
Phaserhawk wrote: Human Torch is quite easy. 5 red and the rest don't matter. There are so many hypothetical configurations that it's almost possible to find the right build (which there isn't). I opted 5/4/4 because it plays a nice balance between the two. However I think there is a better way to look at torch. Don't think of black and green as the same DoT skill. Think of green as DoT and black as a finisher. Black does do the dmg at end of turn which can win you games. If you view black as a finisher and green as a DoT it helps make your decision easier as it helps you figure out what you value more. If you want to be able to cast one and know the guy will die than go 5/5/3. If you don't like losing AP and you like having a constant cheap source if dmg , then go 5/3/5. If u like the idea if both go. 5/4/4
vudu3 wrote: What is DoT?
NorthernPolarity wrote: The difference between 9 and 10 ap is on average 2-3 turns, which means that flame jets gets out 2-3 turns faster than inferno without the significant drawback of inferno (which slows down your other abilities by 1-2 turns roughly).
mischiefmaker wrote: NorthernPolarity wrote: The difference between 9 and 10 ap is on average 2-3 turns, which means that flame jets gets out 2-3 turns faster than inferno without the significant drawback of inferno (which slows down your other abilities by 1-2 turns roughly). Why do you say the difference between 9 and 10 AP is 2-3 turns?
Phantron wrote: If you assume there's no available match for a certain color then you'd need to generate about 21-42 tiles to get another match of that color since 21 tiles would get you 3 of the new color on average but that's assuming you always get the match, and 42 would be the case where it's always 50/50 whether you or the opponent gets the match. If you take the average and assume 4 tiles are replaced per move then it's 31.5/2*4 ~= 4 turns. Note that Inferno does fire on the turn it's used whereas Flame Jet do not so a very rough estimate would be that Flame Jet (at 9 AP) is 3 turns faster than Inferno. But Inferno does considerably more damage on average compared to Flame Jet unless you're able to start a Flame Jet early and then collect more green AP without destroying the Flame Jet tile in the process, which can happen but is far from reliable.
Phaserhawk wrote: I never said to use black as a finisher. I said to think of it as a finisher, it's a means of determine your preferred build. I would never use it as a finisher although it does tend to do that. As I've said 5 red and then it doesn't matter.
Phaserhawk wrote: So with the Daken tile strength respec, does this push Torch into 5/5/3 over 5/3/5 or 5/4/4 now? With Daken not able to tank green for Torch anymore, you are not going to want to expose HT to the damage, but it's hard to justify giving up green considering how powerful the color is. Daken's color shift really hurt Torch probably more than any other since he doesn't have the hitpoints to try and take green, meaning you will have to pair him with another green user and more than likely you are going to want to use that green over anyone else. Human Torch got really down graded. You could easily run Daken/Torch and know that you could match red here or there since Flame Jet was very strong and finish guys off. Now you have to expose Torch on red and green unless you run him with another green user, and at that point that other green user Patch, Thor, Sentry, She-Hulk, Hulk, Punisher, Storm, Rags, Widow, Beast, X-Force, IW Only a few of these are competitive, Thor, Sentry, X-Force, Punisher, Patch and sometimes Hulk. Of those I would only see using Flame Jet over Hulk for sure and sometimes Patch or Punisher. If you pair him with a lower tier guy than it probably won't matter, but if Torch is someone you use regularly you might need to think on respecing him.