**** Wolverine (X-Force) **** [PRE 2015-04]

NorthernPolarity

Green doesn't really need a nerf since its not really that overpowered to begin with: it has a nice niche as some fast damage / board clear, and I don't really think it needs to be changed as it will balance itself out once we get into the 4* meta. If Demiurge insists on continuing the trend and unnecessarily touching all abilities just to be safe though, then just a straight up 500 damage nerf would be more than enough. Remember that this ability does ~600 damage / AP, which is pretty balanced for it being a fast ability: the 4*s main power moves do 1k damage / AP, so this is a reasonable amount lower and balanced as is.

Surgical is the main problem, and ending the turn doesn't seem like a good way to nerf the ability. I detest the end the turn mechanic in general, since it feels sort of lazy and tacked on to characters such as squirrel girl (sentry and hood make more sense, but eh.) Ending the turn wouldn't be enough of a nerf to not make him an outlier. In terms of a surgical nerf, the main problem is the AP generation and there are two main ways to fix it:
1. Remove AP generation entirely. Boost the damage per tile to ~700 per tile. This makes it still do reasonable amounts of damage, without accelerating you to victory.
2. Make the AP generation drain your opponents AP instead of getting AP for each destroyed tile (Phaserhawk's suggestion).

NorthernPolarity

Oh and to all you downvoters who are balking at the sight of someone suggesting that X-Force be nerfed, sticking your head in the sand might not be such a good idea. You might think to yourself "X-Force doesn't need a nerf, these guys are idiots for even suggesting it!", but look at the new metagame post 4or: everyone knows its going to be X-Force, X-Force, X-Force. And when this happens, what do you think Demiurge is going to do? The best thing to do is then to have an open discussion about should this happen, what would be the best way to balance the character. This gives us a chance of actually giving the developers feedback (that they probably won't listen to) so that the odds of X-Force not being neutered are higher than they otherwise would be. By downvoting us, you are actually killing any chance X-Force has at being balanced properly even more so, so think a little more, and realize that its better to have this debate than not.

ronin_san

eaise wrote:

Don't nerf XF at All!

That's the best answer!

He helps me win fights I shouldn't. I don't even have him fully covered; I have 2 in his green. TWO! And still I see how it can be broken. When I fight another XFW, I deny him green at all costs. The black I can deal with. The green hurts more.

And saying "don't nerf him" doesn't help, because with the advent of more charged tiles, XFW has the *potential* <- operative word to do more than 600 per AP spent. They changed around The Hood because he was gaining too much charged AP with his pistols.

We're going to see other abilities reeled in and worked on, once the new shapeshifter (who can change x random tiles of a certain color into color y) drops. here's why.

If Cyclops and Shapeshifter match up with Daredevil, 4Hor, etc.... You're looking at a canvas of red; potentially charged red. That's a lot of ping pong with Daredevil's red ability. mull that one over.

So it goes with Thor, or GSBW. You're then looking at a canvas of green. That's 2 Call The Storm (6k at 2 enemy, 4k at the last, or 8k -4k -4k).

*and the developer said green is going to stay the most popular color with coming character releases*.

So that means a RASH of XFW 4k HP attacks; a minimum of 12k dmg. And with 3 cascades, it's not outside of the realm of possibility to see another 2 green AP gained et voila. 16k minimum dmg from a maxed out XFW.


So if it's XFW Prof X new shapeshifter, we're looking at a heap of freebies and BIG chunky burst dmg from XFW that propagates a lot of think bald-headed animation.

He'll be complained about. A LOT. As much as I **** on the devs for a lack of forethought, they're in the business of making money. And that also means dialing back the brutes that make the meta un-fun for others.

kensterr

Just make him go back to pre-buff days. No need to rethink on anything at all.

Mawtful

I think the big problem is that Rank 5 Green and Rank 5 Black are not just top tier abilities, but are such significant increases over previous ranks. X Force could certainly be tempered by changing Black to steal the AP drained rather than generate it from the tiles destroyed, but even with that change there would be no change to his optimal build.

Take a look at the X Force character thread (viewtopic.php?f=14&t=552), in particular, the results for his best build. There's not really any competition; 5/5/3 stands out with 87% of the votes. By comparison, 3* Thor has 91% voting for 3/5/5 (that's crazy, 9% don't think that build is optimal?! but I digress).

And I think the only way to change that is with a buff.
Yes, you read that correctly.
I think that Recovery needs a little something extra at ranks 4 and 5 so that it's considered as a part of his build.

All Ranks: damage from matching away the countdown is now team damage, not single target.

Rank 4: half current rank 4 healing rate (~3064 at L270). Same increase to damage. Increased tiles destroyed to 9. After the Countdown activates, it also converts a random yellow basic tile into a 3-turn countdown.

Rank 5: Same healing rate as new Rank 4. Countdown reduced to 2 turns. (Both original and recreated).

I think these changes really make Recovery significantly more appealing. At Rank 4, if you can babysit the countdown effectively, Wolverine is recovering at a rate of about 1021 health per turn. At Rank 5, it's 1532. That countdown tile is now significantly more threatening and it's going to deal team damage if you just match it away. The recreating countdown also makes the ability feel a bit more like regeneration once it gets started.

X-Force is probably fine, the AP Steal change to SS is probably the only change needed for that ability, but I think these changes to Recovery would actually result in some variation in builds.

Arondite

Green: rank 5 now destroys 9 tiles (down from 15). You may now place the center tile.

Black: damage up (~775 per destroyed tile), no longer generates ap for tiles destroyed. Now steals up to 5 ap instead of reduces ap by 10

Yellow: damage up on match, countdown down, cascades always favor wolverine

NighteyesGrisu

kensterr wrote:

Just make him go back to pre-buff days. No need to rethink on anything at all.

not sure if serious.... :twitch:

NighteyesGrisu

Arondite wrote:

Green: rank 5 now destroys 9 tiles (down from 15). You may now place the center tile.

Black: damage up (~775 per destroyed tile), no longer generates ap for tiles destroyed. Now steals up to 5 ap instead of reduces ap by 10

Yellow: damage up on match, countdown down, cascades always favor wolverine

yeah, if they do anything to his green/black (and I'm not saying they should), they should also buff his yellow.

Also if they really decide he's got to be nerfed they must absolutely eliminate any scaling that happens because you level beyond 166, because a maxed 4* would than hardly be better than your 3* and thus not warrant increased scaling.

Der_Lex

His green is fine for a 4*. Yes, it packs a punch, but so do demolition and smite.

Turning ap gain from his black into ap drain for the opponent like Phaserhawk suggested should be more than enough.

If yellow gets buffed, it should involve more damage done if the countdown tile is matched. The length of the current countdown is a major balancing point for the character, because if you want to patch him up during a fight, every green you use runs the risk of blasting your tile and costing you a health pack for the next fight, so you can't use green quite as casually.

spccrain

Basically I believe that XF is ok as is. Yes he is powerful but isn't he about the last 4* worth of his rating? I mean the 4or nerf isn't THAT bad for me since I have her at 534 and have never had the benefit of her 5 blue but if they nerf XF there won't really be much of a difference separating the 3* from the 4*. Imo the 4*s should be able to take down 2 3* by themselves. and the 3* should take 2 2* and so on. It just seems like a logical progression of power.
That being said (and I know I may be contradicting myself but at the expense of my xforce getting nerfed) what I would like to see is some buffs to IW and some of the underpowered 3*s to make them contenders with XF/4or. You're really telling me that Hulk and GSBW should be on the same level? His anger is amazing and great for a suicide mission but he is really easy to bring down when he should be indestructible right? Buff some 3* but stop nerfing the 4*s. This will make the transition people happy and keep the vets from rage quitting in true MPQ fashion.

Unknown

I am so tired of writing this. They are not nerfing xforce. If you read what they've said (and do so analytically, not emotionally), characters that were balanced had broken mechanics that made them op. In 4or's case, it was the charged tiles, which made her able to stunlock and smite 20,000+ health characters.

They still want her to be 4* tier. Did they accomplish this, we'll find out 3/23.

Xforce has no broken mechanics. He is actually the poster boy of what a 4* should look like. He does several things really well, which makes him so valuable. SS is not op. Unlike PS/Smite, SS is a game changer, not a game ender. This is an important distinction. (Winfinite was also a game ender.) Players can only get SS off once per match, twice if the match is long or the player fortunate. Xforce green hurts both players abilities to play special tiles. This limits the strategies for his use to a degree. And if you've used recovery, you know that is far from a sure thing.

Rather than nerfing xforce, who is clearly 4*tier, probably what needs to happen is to buff the other 4*s so there is a clearer delineation between 3* and 4* tier like there is between 2*and 3* tier.

Players can moan xforce is good. He should be, he is 4*, but he is not op. It just seems that way because the other 4*a are UP to a degree right now.

Edit - pointed out winfinite also a game ender.

Unknown

Remove the AP drain on 5 black. That's all.

tanis3303

The_Valeyard wrote:

Xforce has no broken mechanics. He is actually the poster boy of what a 4* should look like. He does several things really well, which makes him so valuable.

Don't get me wrong here, because for the most part, I agree with you. But if xforce is the poster child of 4* land, why do IW, Starlord and Elektra exist in their current forms? I'm worried that the power level of SL and Elektra is where they want the 4* heroes to sit, and I think after monday that's where we'll see Thor sitting -- as basically a 3* with more health. If that's the intended power level of the 4* game, an xforce nerf is inevitable.

Unknown

tanis3303 wrote:

The_Valeyard wrote:

Xforce has no broken mechanics. He is actually the poster boy of what a 4* should look like. He does several things really well, which makes him so valuable.

Don't get me wrong here, because for the most part, I agree with you. But if xforce is the poster child of 4* land, why do IW, Starlord and Elektra exist in their current forms? I'm worried that the power level of SL and Elektra is where they want the 4* heroes to sit, and I think after monday that's where we'll see Thor sitting -- as basically a 3* with more health. If that's the intended power level of the 4* game, an xforce nerf is inevitable.

IW is being reworked.

Elektra and Starlord are both experiments, and pretty wild ones at that. They have mechanics you don't see anywhere else in the game, and are utterly unique. That said, it's clear d3 had no idea whatsoever of how to balance them, and because money dictates they release a new character every few seconds, those 4*s are going to suck for a long, long time.

GuntherBlobel

To be "delicate", I wouldn't change anything other than SS. And I like these two solutions:

1) Put a cap on AP generation. For example: At Lvl 3, it would generate up to 2 AP (that's a buff). And at Lvl 5, generate up to 5 AP (that's the nerf). Of course, my "balanced" example benefits new players over older players, so the Forum rage from Vets would pretty intense.

2) Make the AP generation a "steal" mechanic. In this tweak, SS would gain in power as the opponent gains AP in their strongest color. I feel like this actually fits the "theme" of this power as well or better than the original. Forum outrage from people who hate "slow" games.

I'm inclined to agree with The Valeyard that a nerf is not in order without there being some "broken" mechanic. That said, using X-Force when the opponent's strongest color is black makes a decent case for "broken". If someone has Daken as their tank, I just target one of his teammates, fire SS to remove all black and gain another SS. There is so much board shake from SS alone that I can sometimes fire it again and fuel another SS. If not, I often gain enough cascade AP to fuel X-Force, which clears the board and reveals enough black to rinse and repeat. I just did a SS loop and made the AP drain aspect of SS obsolete. Who hasn't done that? Both of my solutions solve for this scenario.

I think the Devs tried to make SS self-regulating, because they did want it to be powerful. They just goofed a little in their approach. Nothing wrong in correcting that mistake, IMO.

KrazyKeylime

No fun to SS same non- person in a row( if you got more then 8 ) it hardly does any thing the second time if you didn't knock out the hero, unless you got enough to shake the board/finish off dominant hero. I have to say i like X-force it is everything a 4* should be and all others need to get to the point where they can compete with him. 4thor was the best chance of all the other 4* and they nerfed her.

devs wants to make new character, new character interacts with certain character that breaks the game, --> change new character so that it doesn't break the game. devs mad too hard.IDK just nerf 4thor instead?? seriously what the heck can they thinking when they do this kinda thing.

Unknown

tanis3303 wrote:

The_Valeyard wrote:

Xforce has no broken mechanics. He is actually the poster boy of what a 4* should look like. He does several things really well, which makes him so valuable.

Don't get me wrong here, because for the most part, I agree with you. But if xforce is the poster child of 4* land, why do IW, Starlord and Elektra exist in their current forms? I'm worried that the power level of SL and Elektra is where they want the 4* heroes to sit, and I think after monday that's where we'll see Thor sitting -- as basically a 3* with more health. If that's the intended power level of the 4* game, an xforce nerf is inevitable.

first, as a developer pointed out on reddit (reasoning is there as well), OP characters get changed asap, UP such as IW and the old xforce are low priority. So, just because they have not been buffed doesn't mean they shouldn't or won't be.

Second, you can't necessarily go by how 4or is on Monday. As others pointed out, mpq originally undervalued charge tiles. They are attempting to correct. The question is did they find the right balance or did they now overvalue charged tiles. If they did the former great, we can get past this and move on. If they did the former, they'll need to do another adjustment to her right. The bottom line is that want her 4* strong like xforce, but they don't want her the be a game ender with one character down and 19 ap.

SnowcaTT

Stop talking Nerfs, ug.

Leave green alone. Damage per AP is used, and it's only slightly more than Thor red: and characters with less HP should have stronger/faster abilities.

The ONLY thing you need to do is remove the AP part of black. It probably is balanced if you simply don't let Surgical Strike give you AP. It is probably Nerfed if you don't let SS give you AP -and- you don't take AP from opponent. It's probably terrible if you have SS do either or both of those and hit a random color rather than "strongest", which is confusing anyway.

tanis3303

The_Valeyard wrote:

tanis3303 wrote:

The_Valeyard wrote:

Xforce has no broken mechanics. He is actually the poster boy of what a 4* should look like. He does several things really well, which makes him so valuable.

Don't get me wrong here, because for the most part, I agree with you. But if xforce is the poster child of 4* land, why do IW, Starlord and Elektra exist in their current forms? I'm worried that the power level of SL and Elektra is where they want the 4* heroes to sit, and I think after monday that's where we'll see Thor sitting -- as basically a 3* with more health. If that's the intended power level of the 4* game, an xforce nerf is inevitable.

first, as a developer pointed out on reddit (reasoning is there as well), OP characters get changed asap, UP such as IW and the old xforce are low priority. So, just because they have not been buffed doesn't mean they shouldn't or won't be.

Second, you can't necessarily go by how 4or is on Monday. As others pointed out, mpq originally undervalued charge tiles. They are attempting to correct. The question is did they find the right balance or did they now overvalue charged tiles. If they did the former great, we can get past this and move on. If they did the former, they'll need to do another adjustment to her right. The bottom line is that want her 4* strong like xforce, but they don't want her the be a game ender with one character down and 19 ap.

If the possibility exists to re-power her (say to 7-8 charged tiles from Surge) then great, awesome! But how long are we going to have to wait for that to happen? You say UP characters are low priority, and imho, she's very UP now, especially for a 4* hero. Looking at other heroes with the same color palette, LCap can arguably throw around more damage than her now, and (board dependent) so can CMags. Heck, even Daredevil can come close if there's enough red on the board to ping-pong his trap tile. Her only clear advantage over those heroes is her health pool.

And there aren't too many games that I can't end with 1 character down, 11 black and 8 green with xforce...just sayin

Unknown

SnowcaTT wrote:

Stop talking Nerfs, ug.

Leave green alone. Damage per AP is used, and it's only slightly more than Thor red: and characters with less HP should have stronger/faster abilities.

The ONLY thing you need to do is remove the AP part of black. It probably is balanced if you simply don't let Surgical Strike give you AP. It is probably Nerfed if you don't let SS give you AP -and- you don't take AP from opponent. It's probably terrible if you have SS do either or both of those and hit a random color rather than "strongest", which is confusing anyway.

Don't even need to change ss. If the other player can't think strategic to bring in a character with a non beneficial strongest color to the ai, that's on them. Also, if you can't deny 11 ap on a regular basis, I don't know what to tell you.

People beat xforce regularly in pve. There's just a segment of players who don't want to see xforce in pvp. If it wasn't xforce it'd be fist or blade or lt. The best character, no matter what degree, will be the best character. Perfect balance is a myth. It also doesn't help wolverine is one of the most popular characters.

If you want to argue against an op character, you should push to nerf gorgon.