**** Wolverine (X-Force) **** [PRE 2015-04]

SnowcaTT

bonfire01 wrote:

SnowcaTT wrote:

From the Video discussion thread:

So X-force likely will be getting a "detune", but not as much as Thor. Perhaps only removing AP steal from surgical strike?

4Thor got hit hard... I mean REALLY hard. There is an awful lot of room between what was done to her and simply removing AP steal from SS. She lost 1/3 of her damage and almost all of her AP acceleration.... so 20% damage and remove AP gain (say that cascades = enough AP acceleration) is not beyond the realms of expectation.

In my experience of Demiurge's rebalances.... take the most extreme thing any forumite suggests THEN make it worse and that's what you'll get....

Xforce is almost certainly getting bent over just like Rags, Spidey, Sentry etc.

Maybe he'll get bent over like IF I agree, I hope for a IF nerf, expect a CMags nerf, and wouldn't be surprised by a killing nerf like the ones you mention.

NorthernPolarity

bonfire01 wrote:

SnowcaTT wrote:

From the Video discussion thread:

So X-force likely will be getting a "detune", but not as much as Thor. Perhaps only removing AP steal from surgical strike?

4Thor got hit hard... I mean REALLY hard. There is an awful lot of room between what was done to her and simply removing AP steal from SS. She lost 1/3 of her damage and almost all of her AP acceleration.... so 20% damage and remove AP gain (say that cascades = enough AP acceleration) is not beyond the realms of expectation.

In my experience of Demiurge's rebalances.... take the most extreme thing any forumite suggests THEN make it worse and that's what you'll get....

Xforce is almost certainly getting bent over just like Rags, Spidey, Sentry etc.

I dunno, for some reason the forum people seem to be approaching this nerf pretty harshly. I was looking for something like boost to 700 damage per tile and removal of ap generation on surgical: lots of people seem to just want the straight up removal of ap generation on surgical, which is a really harsh nerf. I guess youd expect demiurge to do something like remove ap generation on surgicsl, lower base damage per tile to 350, and randomly lower greens cascades by half and reduce base damage by 1000 just for the hell of it which.... Sounds kinda likely given what they did to 4or...

Unknown

Well well well, another genius thread! Wow!

ballingbees

Kcwei83 wrote:

Well well well, another genius thread! Wow!

and another genius post

DrNitroman

In a recent thread, Will stated that (after Thor's nerf), XF is the higher range of 4* and IW the lowest. Being considered the strongest (the best there is ) makes him a target for a nerf, probably.

However, what qualified thor was obviously not only raw strength but primarily the combo using her and the charged tiles mechanism that devs considered overpowered. I don't think there is such a mechanism to correct concerning XF, his black and green abilities are just top range.

conclusion: eventually the devs will made some changes for XF, yeah most probably... but I'm not convinced they considered him as a high priority.

Unknown

yeah his green, too much damage and it not like what its written(3400 damage) in reality it 4450 damage(or something near that). because the destroyed tile produce damage too. IF this ability doesnt destroy tile.....hmm

black, simply ridiculous(to me) deplete your AP and generate AP and of course insane damage, for A.I its "winfinite fest" probability it just dev that always say it random, need to be helly ner........balanced eh? solution to this: doesnt depelte ap or generate ap and also more cost or like TS mention it, it end turn.

and it is his yellow need to be fixed.

just my 2 rubbles.

thbrown81

Trisul wrote:

thbrown81 wrote:

I can't take any talk about nerfing XForce seriously when my 553 still loses PVP matches to 2*Storm and OBW.

Oh right, that clearly means X-Force sucks.

Obviously X-Force is awesome.

The main impetus behind the "nerf X-Force movement" is that people who don't have an X-Force complain that they can't compete in PVP without him. I'm simply arguing that this is not the case.

Unknown

XFW theme seems to be cascades and that won't change (unless devs want to make 4* less 'fun' than it's 2* version). His green is 550/AP which is same as Deadpool and Torch Red. It's not same, since XF have bonus cascades, while DP have limitation and Torch first use is more expensive + lower health class, but I think it's within of a power that is 60% better. His black on average board is 5000 + cascades (450/AP) which is not really that devastating. Cap is deemed 'too slow' for PvP yet his shield also costs 11AP, hits for 4k and more often than not will end up returning 9AP back.

I honestly think the only 'overpowered' part is the AP gain from Black. It's quite fine power of it's own, but if you add 'get 9 AP immidiately' is when it starts being crazy. It's also what makes him so fast. If you just change it to drain (or even remove it) you're still left with top tier single target nuker and cascade generator, but also one that runs out of gas. And with new levels of boosted character, unless it's XFW turn, it's not like he will be able to one shot anyone.

GuntherBlobel

I'm changing my answer to give him more balance. Obviously Lvl 5 SS will take a big hit even if we try to be delicate about it, so compensate some where an improvement is needed: give his Recovery a buff, so that it is always useful.

If X-Force is already above 90% health when the Recovery tile triggers then he heals to 100% and then uses all that excess energy to lunge into battle, dealing damage and causing a cascade as if the tile had been matched. Give the damage aspect a little more kick if needed.

Make at least one player consider a 4/4/5 build. I have a 5/5/2 X-Force and I don't ever use Recovery until the end of the match. That's not a very fun ability.

Kolence

Leave it alone. Cascades are fun.
I'd keep it the same damage wise. Only change the AP drain/gather and instead make it steal up to X AP from enemy's strongest color, where X improves with covers.
Make it place a 1-turn, a 2-turn and a 3-turn CD. When the CD activates, it heals Y amount of health (maybe a 1/3 of current value?) per # of recovery CDs on board. If it's matched by the enemy, it does damage as before. If you match it, it destroys tiles as before.

Unknown

famousfoxking wrote:

onimus wrote:

D3 has proven time and time again that they balance the game around PVP.

Xforce's utility in PVE probably has no factor in their decision of whether to nerf him or not.

The CMags nerf was entirely about PVE. The MNM/MQ nerf is entirely about PVE. Infinite turn strategies are waaaaaaaaaay too slow to be a factor in PVP. The Spider-man nerf was entirely about PVE. Whether or not they care about XForce specifically in PVE, I can't say, but they definitely balance around PVE as well as PVP.

Edit: Before you yell at me, NP has already pointed out that I'm wrong about CMags. I would still argue that his change was 50/50 about PVE/PVE, but "entirely" is entirely inaccurate in that case.

Even with your edit, "entirely" is accurate in regards to Magneto. Pairing him with Patch gave you extreme strike tiles with no consequence and very very fast PVP matches.. It didn't have to do with PVE. He was strong in PVE, but wasn't balanced because of it. Same with Sentry. He was super strong in PVE killing those omega nodes. But he was balanced because he was causing problems with PVP.

And Spiderman and MnMags were clear abuse cases. That is not the norm.

For example, Falcon is extremely strong in PVE. He destroys countdown tiles, he gives you huge protect tiles as well as powering up strike tiles to the point of killing thugs in seconds.

But he remains untouched because he is garbage in PVP.

Sure, they fixed obvious abuse cases that gave you infinite turns. But under normal conditions, where infinite turns are not involved, PVE has nothing to do with balance.

Unknown

After xf successfully nerf, prof x going to be next. Don"t worry, nothern/adronite will come out something to debate on it. D3 feel happy for those two guys give them helping hand to earn more $$. D3 can sell more prof x covers before next 4* nerf come in. Then next powerful 4* coming... Repeat repeat repeat.

Unknown

I don't think green needs a nerf. In fact, his green is where 4* powers should be. To be more precise, it is where the strongest power of any 4* characters should be. About his black, I think they will make some changes at some point. I just hope they don't ruin the character when they decide to do it because he is a character with 2 abilities; his yellow is just not important or useful most of the time. I think the "End the turn" option wouldn't hurt the ability and it would help balance it so I am not against it. If the devs choose to change his black, this is the best change we can hope for.

SnowcaTT

I'm sure it wouldn't be popular (just like other changes like this), but what if his colors were swapped? The other two Wolvy's are , why not change black to yellow, remove ap steal, done?

This would prevent one of the large problems that hasn't been discussed much - the +3 boost to BOTH of his good offensive abilities.

Unknown

SnowcaTT wrote:

I'm sure it wouldn't be popular (just like other changes like this), but what if his colors were swapped? The other two Wolvy's are , why not change black to yellow, remove ap steal, done?

This would prevent one of the large problems that hasn't been discussed much - the +3 boost to BOTH of his good offensive abilities.

Then why not revert back to old version of xf ? His red deal 2300 dmg at lvl max + destroy three rows. Good idea? Ppl are just PITA when something is awesome.

SnowcaTT

Kcwei83 wrote:

SnowcaTT wrote:

I'm sure it wouldn't be popular (just like other changes like this), but what if his colors were swapped? The other two Wolvy's are , why not change black to yellow, remove ap steal, done?

This would prevent one of the large problems that hasn't been discussed much - the +3 boost to BOTH of his good offensive abilities.

Then why not revert back to old version of xf ? His red deal 2300 dmg at lvl max + destroy three rows. Good idea? Ppl are just PITA when something is awesome.

(a p.i.t.a), an acronym I hadn't run across.

Yeah, I hope they do nothing at all - but devs said "above the bar of power" they are looking at, so we are all trying to suggest a solution that doesn't destroy him to the point of unplayable like many of the nerfs have done.

Unknown

enough with the nerfs already unless there is a winfinite type of situation.

famousfoxking

onimus wrote:

He was strong in PVE, but wasn't balanced because of it.

Well, his blue gave you infinite turns. I generally think that's more of a problem for PVE than for PVP due to lack of speed. His red was a PVP problem, his blue a PVE problem.

Sure, they fixed obvious abuse cases that gave you infinite turns. But under normal conditions, where infinite turns are not involved, PVE has nothing to do with balance.

So, they don't balance for PVE, except for when they do. Gotcha.

atomzed

When the characters are buffed higher, it seems that Xforce is much less OP than before.

Against the super boosted Loki and hood, a single Xforce green could not kill them anymore. So 8 green does not seem so OP anymore

Similarly I was trying to kill off Mohawk storm in the black vortex pvp (if you let storm start getting cascades things can go down hill quickly). Needing to use a Xforce and a surgical strike to kill off a mohawk storm just make Xforce less auto win.

Raffoon

I agree. I swapped him out for LThor in the past week.

I think that the buff rotation idea is great, but they overshot the magnitude of it just a bit. The aim according to their post was to essentially bump everyone up a rarity tier. They definitely did more than that with the buffs they gave out.

Seeing diversity was great. Seeing 4 stars made obsolete by maxed 3 stars wasn't so great. When I have to choose carefully between LThor and Xforce, then they'll have it right. Maybe something more like level 240 or 250 for 3 stars? 150-160 for 2 stars and 80-90 for 1 stars? (I'd defer to someone using a lot more 2 stars about the lower end for sure, though)