**** Wolverine (X-Force) **** [PRE 2015-04]

Unknown

tanis3303 wrote:

The_Valeyard wrote:

tanis3303 wrote:

The_Valeyard wrote:

Xforce has no broken mechanics. He is actually the poster boy of what a 4* should look like. He does several things really well, which makes him so valuable.

Don't get me wrong here, because for the most part, I agree with you. But if xforce is the poster child of 4* land, why do IW, Starlord and Elektra exist in their current forms? I'm worried that the power level of SL and Elektra is where they want the 4* heroes to sit, and I think after monday that's where we'll see Thor sitting -- as basically a 3* with more health. If that's the intended power level of the 4* game, an xforce nerf is inevitable.

first, as a developer pointed out on reddit (reasoning is there as well), OP characters get changed asap, UP such as IW and the old xforce are low priority. So, just because they have not been buffed doesn't mean they shouldn't or won't be.

Second, you can't necessarily go by how 4or is on Monday. As others pointed out, mpq originally undervalued charge tiles. They are attempting to correct. The question is did they find the right balance or did they now overvalue charged tiles. If they did the former great, we can get past this and move on. If they did the former, they'll need to do another adjustment to her right. The bottom line is that want her 4* strong like xforce, but they don't want her the be a game ender with one character down and 19 ap.

If the possibility exists to re-power her (say to 7-8 charged tiles from Surge) then great, awesome! But how long are we going to have to wait for that to happen? You say UP characters are low priority, and imho, she's very UP now, especially for a 4* hero. Looking at other heroes with the same color palette, LCap can arguably throw around more damage than her now, and (board dependent) so can CMags. Heck, even Daredevil can come close if there's enough red on the board to ping-pong his trap tile. Her only clear advantage over those heroes is her health pool.

And there aren't too many games that I can't end with 1 character down, 11 black and 8 green with xforce...just sayin

That's just one character and it would have to be a mid tier health one with a good ss board. Fury demo can do it. Double escape plan could probably do it as well. SL double purple.

3*s? Maybe c mags blue twice. But then again they're 3*s.

How long have to wait for 4or buff if see UP on Monday. I plan on gathering data to back up my argument and start pushing for a buff right away if she's UP. I plan to hold them accountable. IMO she better be clearly better than every 3* and on or close to xforce level. They said this should be the case. Just like I had to play c mags and m hawkeye after their changes before I knew of they were any good, I'll do the same with 4or.

Their past errors stick out. So that's all that gets discussed or remember more prominently. However, they've gotten a lot more right than wrong. It's just every mistake makes people forget all the great changes made.

Unknown

whats the point of nerfing him anyway? he is a frigging ****!

as i see it, D3 wants to put more **** into the game. just make the new **** strong and desireable. xforce HAS to have an edge over the *** toptiers. (as should all **** yes, i am looking at you, IW)

Trisul

curlymustache wrote:

whats the point of nerfing him anyway? he is a frigging ****!

as i see it, D3 wants to put more **** into the game. just make the new **** strong and desireable. xforce HAS to have an edge over the *** toptiers. (as should all **** yes, i am looking at you, IW)

This post was much better when I thought you were swearing.

Phaserhawk

I think one just has to look at Rags to realize how UP she will be. 12 charged tiles was way too much, we all knew it, but I also think 5 is too small. My math tells me that 7.5 is what it should be however you can't have half a charged tile, so do you error low or high, I don't know, but that's where 4hor should be IMO, I get why the devs reduced the number, I do, it was too much, and if we are getting more chargers then perhpas 5 is okay too, but I don't think so. Rags should be sitting at 5 IMO, since he creates them all in one color his can be lower since you know where they are going, I was just hoping his blue would have been true healing via nanobots or something, that would have kept him in line with power.

As for X-Force, we know it's coming, as NP said, the question is how bad does he get smacked?

I also like the idea of just having X-Force destroy the AP not get it but beefing up the damage, but I do defend my idea of X-Force just taking from the player.
To me Surgical Strike says this.
I am stopping the ability you are saving up for from going off by draining your AP
I am stopping you from getting more of that AP by destroying the resourcee
I am punching you in the face in hopes you aren't alive to do it again

So when X-Force steals the AP as well where should it come from, to me the board just creates too much, I mean I can SS a Daken and potentially get all my AP back to SS someone again, but if Daken only had 5 AP in his pocket, that's all I get, it seems more elegant, but what do I know. I would probably even throw in that it costs 12 AP, it really won't do a whole lot since it's still in 4 match category as it was with 11, but it does slow it just a tad. Plus it makes it easier for me to know when I have 12 for Iron Fist

Unknown

Np started this rumor? Sigh. Calm down, xforce is not getting nerfed. I can only say and explain it so many times.

NP please set the record straight. I know you want balanced 4* tier, but can we not agree that they are more likely to buff other 4*s than nerf them all down to essentially 3*tier. I'm still excited about prof x. He's like a blade/falcon combo, but on steroids.

Unknown

The argument for or against nerf on X Force totally misses the point because X Force's existence is a mechanism to keep the PvP game sane. X Force is quite overpowered but it's the fact that his green is: "kills target The Hood (or Loki)" keeps this game sane. Prior to X Force you had an era dominated by The Hood where you either lose very badly if you didn't have him or you see two The Hoods high five each other as they endless steal each other's AP every turn. If he is brought down to an appropriate level expect to see The Hood return with a vegenance, possibly with Loki and there's no team that doesn't use AP+3 all boosts can reliably deal with these two characters without using the same one, and yet running the same characters turn the game into an untolerably boring game. As broken as he is, he's still infinitely better to face than the 1on1 games that involved weak featured + The Hood + whoever. At least when both players use X Force, both players can win. In a virtual 1on1, nobody wins (not because you'll lose, but winning a game like that is usually not worth the time at all).

puppychow

Here's my take, as a guy w/ a 5/5/3 lvl 180 XFW. his green is fine b/c it does moderate damage, and the board shaking isn't a match changer. Same deal with yellow b/c it's not overly powerful and having a CD on the yellow tile gives AI a chance to get rid of it.

Now, the issue is surgical strike. Clearly it's the power that can change the complexion of a match. For 11 black APs, you could potentially kill 1 full health opponent, plus gain enough green Aps to kill the other 2. My proposal would involve 2 aspects. First, I would make it harder to trigger--19 APs, just like CapA's liberty shield. If player want to focus on SS, they'll spend 4-6 turns match bk tiles and at the expense of other colors. Second, I would add a restriction---Tiles removed by SS does not generate AP. So theoretically, you can suck 10 APs from AI colors, but it won't end up giving the player 30 APs.

I think these proposed changes to Surgical Strike brings balance back to this ability, while making it used less frequently during a match and requiring the player to consider the opportunity costs of making black matches for SS.

NorthernPolarity

Phantron wrote:

The argument for or against nerf on X Force totally misses the point because X Force's existence is a mechanism to keep the PvP game sane. X Force is quite overpowered but it's the fact that his green is: "kills target The Hood (or Loki)" keeps this game sane. Prior to X Force you had an era dominated by The Hood where you either lose very badly if you didn't have him or you see two The Hoods high five each other as they endless steal each other's AP every turn. If he is brought down to an appropriate level expect to see The Hood return with a vegenance, possibly with Loki and there's no team that doesn't use AP+3 all boosts can reliably deal with these two characters without using the same one, and yet running the same characters turn the game into an untolerably boring game. As broken as he is, he's still infinitely better to face than the 1on1 games that involved weak featured + The Hood + whoever. At least when both players use X Force, both players can win. In a virtual 1on1, nobody wins (not because you'll lose, but winning a game like that is usually not worth the time at all).

The focus of the thread is on surgical though, so your comment seems unrelated.

The_Valeyard wrote:

Np started this rumor? Sigh. Calm down, xforce is not getting nerfed. I can only say and explain it so many times.

NP please set the record straight. I know you want balanced 4* tier, but can we not agree that they are more likely to buff other 4*s than nerf them all down to essentially 3*tier. I'm still excited about prof x. He's like a blade/falcon combo, but on steroids.

Well i WANT them to buff the other 4*s, but given the trend we've been seeing, don't you think an X-Force nerf is much more likely?

Unknown

NorthernPolarity wrote:

The focus of the thread is on surgical though, so your comment seems unrelated.

Oh yeah, a character that is so powerful that having the most powerful green move in the game that ended the previous dominance of The Hood isn't even something people interested in discussing nerfing because it's not his best ability.

Unknown

NorthernPolarity wrote:

Phantron wrote:

The argument for or against nerf on X Force totally misses the point because X Force's existence is a mechanism to keep the PvP game sane. X Force is quite overpowered but it's the fact that his green is: "kills target The Hood (or Loki)" keeps this game sane. Prior to X Force you had an era dominated by The Hood where you either lose very badly if you didn't have him or you see two The Hoods high five each other as they endless steal each other's AP every turn. If he is brought down to an appropriate level expect to see The Hood return with a vegenance, possibly with Loki and there's no team that doesn't use AP+3 all boosts can reliably deal with these two characters without using the same one, and yet running the same characters turn the game into an untolerably boring game. As broken as he is, he's still infinitely better to face than the 1on1 games that involved weak featured + The Hood + whoever. At least when both players use X Force, both players can win. In a virtual 1on1, nobody wins (not because you'll lose, but winning a game like that is usually not worth the time at all).

The focus of the thread is on surgical though, so your comment seems unrelated.

The_Valeyard wrote:

Np started this rumor? Sigh. Calm down, xforce is not getting nerfed. I can only say and explain it so many times.

NP please set the record straight. I know you want balanced 4* tier, but can we not agree that they are more likely to buff other 4*s than nerf them all down to essentially 3*tier. I'm still excited about prof x. He's like a blade/falcon combo, but on steroids.

Well i WANT them to buff the other 4*s, but given the trend we've been seeing, don't you think an X-Force nerf is much more likely?

What trend? The only characters that have been nerfed (not counting Rags, I think they must not be done tweaking him, I hope) have been game enders. Characters that were able insure victory too easily. Let's look at who has been nerfed (post original Rags, Wovlie, C Storm, Loki nerfs).

Spidey - His blue was able to stunlock the AI infinitely.

MMN/MQ - They were nearly infinite once they got going. The introduction of Prof X would have pretty much made the combo a sure thing and sped up the combo.

3* Daken - They correct his color scheme if you want to call that a nerf. But after that he was no longer as good with LT and other green characters. They also lowered the value of his strike tiles. They sold this as they were nerfing Daken, but we all know the real culprit was his combo with Sentry. Players were able to make a couple of green matches with Daken tanking those colors, and then WR and instantly win. Plus, his change in strike tiles also had to do with getting him line with his 2* version, or vice versa.

Sentry - After Daken was nerfed, he could still take out a whole team with basically two matches the way players were playing with him boosted.

Hood - Charged tiles would made him able to speed up 4or more and/or create an infinite turn.

4or - The Power Surge and Smite after only one character was down allowed players to quickly and definitely end the game using a combo of PS stunlock and Smite. Not even level 395 C Mags/Hood in TAT or 20,000+ health characters stood a chance.

Then you compare that to X-Force. As good as X-Force is, he cannot do anything to the levels of Game Ending characters/combos. He can speed up a game, he can do lots of things well like board shake, hinder the AI AP from strongest color abilities, gain AP of one color for the player, and two attacks that can cause large amounts of damage. All things are awesome and why so many people love (or hate) X-Force. However, these abilities are not on the same level of the other characters/combos that were nerfed. What his abilities do is pair well with and complement other characters.

I cannot illustrate the distinction between them any better than this. I hope you understand the distinction. There is no reason to worry about X-Force getting nerfed.

Unknown

I'll never stop worrying about it, because now he's the best 4-star character and I'm afraid that they want 3-stars and 4-stars to be indistinguishable.

Best way to delicately modify X-Force Wolverine: rework Invisible Woman so that her green is desirable, then release a 4-star Iron Patriot with a cool black power (I vote for bizarro Avengers, Assemble). Problem solved in a way that's fun.

NorthernPolarity

Phantron wrote:

NorthernPolarity wrote:

The focus of the thread is on surgical though, so your comment seems unrelated.

Oh yeah, a character that is so powerful that having the most powerful green move in the game that ended the previous dominance of The Hood isn't even something people interested in discussing nerfing because it's not his best ability.

Well it was his best ability when the game was centered around taking down a 5-6k HP guy, but now that the metagame has shifted with the inclusion of 4or, the game is focused on dealing with xor, which is 26k HP, and X-Force gets a lot worse when that's the case. X-Force is obviously a strong ability, but its far worse than surgical strike in the current metagame. I remember a lot of people saying in the past that balance will work itself out once they introduce more 4*s and the metagame changes. While I don't agree 100% with that philosophy, it's clear that the metagame has indeed made X-Force green not as OP as it once was, maybe even balanced.

The_Valeyard wrote:

Then you compare that to X-Force. As good as X-Force is, he cannot do anything to the levels of Game Ending characters/combos. He can speed up a game, he can do lots of things well like board shake, hinder the AI AP from strongest color abilities, gain AP of one color for the player, and two attacks that can cause large amounts of damage. All things are awesome and why so many people love (or hate) X-Force. However, these abilities are not on the same level of the other characters/combos that were nerfed. What his abilities do is pair well with and complement other characters.

I cannot illustrate the distinction between them any better than this. I hope you understand the distinction. There is no reason to worry about X-Force getting nerfed.

Nerfs have always been about taking out the outliers in the meta that are so good that they obsolete all other characters in existence. While its true that X-Force is significantly weaker than any of the characters who did get nerfed, he is clearly the huge outlier in the current land of 4* characters. Would you even consider running literally any other 4* over X-Force, even in PvPs where the featured character conflicts 100% with him? If the answer to this question is "No", then we either have to buff every other 4* in existence to his power level, or nerf him so that the other 4*s are more competitive.

One last thought, you know that Demiurge is a very data driven company. When their data shows that X-Force appears in every single team for every single PvP whose roster has a maxed X-Force, even if said rosters has all the other 4*s maxed, what do you think their reaction is going to be? I'm not necessarily agreeing that X-Force should be nerfed, but if they decide to do it, I don't blame them, and think that this discussion should occur anyways to provide some semblance of feedback.

Moon 17 wrote:

I'll never stop worrying about it, because now he's the best 4-star character and I'm afraid that they want 3-stars and 4-stars to be indistinguishable.

Best way to delicately modify X-Force Wolverine: rework Invisible Woman so that her green is desirable, then release a 4-star Iron Patriot with a cool black power (I vote for bizarro Avengers, Assemble). Problem solved in a way that's fun.

I'd argue that Fury is still a lot better than any 3* right now, so you don't have to worry as much. As long as the power level remains that 4*s are between X-Force and Fury tier, they'll be strictly better than 3*s (except maybe that IF guy, but he's obviously too strong for a 3* to begin with).

OneenO

Someone needs to nerf the nerf police.

Unknown

NorthernPolarity wrote:

The best thing to do is then to have an open discussion about should this happen, what would be the best way to balance the character. This gives us a chance of actually giving the developers feedback (that they probably won't listen to) so that the odds of X-Force not being neutered are higher than they otherwise would be.

I actually agree with this point by NP. And this prompted a further question for me. Assume X-force is nerfed to, say, Nick Fury level. The question for me becomes: is it worth the time, effort and ISO to invest in such a 4* character?

Some people will undoubtedly answer yes, but what I'm getting at is that the trend for 4* characters is arguably toward what some have called "3*+" in terms of power. But not in terms of the investment costs of ISO, and HP or effort required to get the covers, which remains the same -- substantially higher.

Honestly, I'm getting the impression that the game would just be better off getting it over with and nerfing all the 4* characters to 3* in terms of power, max level, and investment cost: ISO to level, and cover cost to 3* level, and somehow compensating (if that's even possible) for all the lost investment of the past. Put more directly, the nerfs have raised the question in my mind whether 4* were just a mistake altogether, and are are ending up net detriment to the game damaging and reducing the enthusiastic player base. And the continuous talk of the spectre of the looming nerf is a perpetual drag on player base morale.

When I really face up to it, the 3* releases have been more exciting for me than the 4* releases. 4* PVE are a major disruption to alliances, the investment into the chars is huge, and so the loss is huge when the chronic rebalances come. They have just been a heartbreak all around.

Unknown

Now why just why would you bring this up?
He is perfectly fine he's surgical needs lots of ap and it's usually a one time shot. He doesn't one kill hit any 3* toon.


Stop throwing wood into the fire!!!

Unknown

NorthernPolarity wrote:

Phantron wrote:

NorthernPolarity wrote:

The focus of the thread is on surgical though, so your comment seems unrelated.

Oh yeah, a character that is so powerful that having the most powerful green move in the game that ended the previous dominance of The Hood isn't even something people interested in discussing nerfing because it's not his best ability.

Well it was his best ability when the game was centered around taking down a 5-6k HP guy, but now that the metagame has shifted with the inclusion of 4or, the game is focused on dealing with xor, which is 26k HP, and X-Force gets a lot worse when that's the case. X-Force is obviously a strong ability, but its far worse than surgical strike in the current metagame. I remember a lot of people saying in the past that balance will work itself out once they introduce more 4*s and the metagame changes. While I don't agree 100% with that philosophy, it's clear that the metagame has indeed made X-Force green not as OP as it once was, maybe even balanced.

The_Valeyard wrote:

Then you compare that to X-Force. As good as X-Force is, he cannot do anything to the levels of Game Ending characters/combos. He can speed up a game, he can do lots of things well like board shake, hinder the AI AP from strongest color abilities, gain AP of one color for the player, and two attacks that can cause large amounts of damage. All things are awesome and why so many people love (or hate) X-Force. However, these abilities are not on the same level of the other characters/combos that were nerfed. What his abilities do is pair well with and complement other characters.

I cannot illustrate the distinction between them any better than this. I hope you understand the distinction. There is no reason to worry about X-Force getting nerfed.

Nerfs have always been about taking out the outliers in the meta that are so good that they obsolete all other characters in existence. While its true that X-Force is significantly weaker than any of the characters who did get nerfed, he is clearly the huge outlier in the current land of 4* characters. Would you even consider running literally any other 4* over X-Force, even in PvPs where the featured character conflicts 100% with him? If the answer to this question is "No", then we either have to buff every other 4* in existence to his power level, or nerf him so that the other 4*s are more competitive.

One last thought, you know that Demiurge is a very data driven company. When their data shows that X-Force appears in every single team for every single PvP whose roster has a maxed X-Force, even if said rosters has all the other 4*s maxed, what do you think their reaction is going to be? I'm not necessarily agreeing that X-Force should be nerfed, but if they decide to do it, I don't blame them, and think that this discussion should occur anyways to provide some semblance of feedback.

Moon 17 wrote:

I'll never stop worrying about it, because now he's the best 4-star character and I'm afraid that they want 3-stars and 4-stars to be indistinguishable.

Best way to delicately modify X-Force Wolverine: rework Invisible Woman so that her green is desirable, then release a 4-star Iron Patriot with a cool black power (I vote for bizarro Avengers, Assemble). Problem solved in a way that's fun.

I'd argue that Fury is still a lot better than any 3* right now, so you don't have to worry as much. As long as the power level remains that 4*s are between X-Force and Fury tier, they'll be strictly better than 3*s (except maybe that IF guy, but he's obviously too strong for a 3* to begin with).

The data should show is the most dominant 4*. 1) Him and IW have been around the longest, so the most people have covers of them. 2) He works well with more team compositions. 3) The 4* transition is new, so not many people still had Fury or 4or. Very few have Elektra, Starlord, Dino, or Prof X. Therefore, the data must show X-Force as the most used 4* regardless of how powerful he is.

It is not strictly about outliers. LT was an outlier in the 3* tier long before X-Force was buffed. He was never touched. LT is actually a good model of how 4or is intended to work in practice and why 4or was a specific type of outlier that needed to be addressed. He has lots of health because he takes a while to get going. His most powerful attack is very strong, but then he has to start the process all over again. Conversely, 4or had high health, but she did not take as long to get going, and after she got going, she got faster and stronger. The imbalance was obvious. Why does she need all that health if she is just going to steamroll and shred through people. This is hte imbalance that I keep referring to a game ending ability.

They've gone back to the drawing board. She still has the high health, and still take a while to get going. However, while her attacks still get stronger and faster as she goes along, it's a more incremental, and dare I say, tank-like speed.

You ask me if I think they will nerf X-Force or buff the other 4*'s. They want 4*'s to be the new end game. If they are serious about that, they need 4or to still be good. That's number 1. She needs to be a significant step better than LT better at that. Secondly, they need to have a clear delineation between the 3* and 4* tier. Not all 4*'s need to better than the best 3*, but they need to be significantly better than the same role type character at the 3* level. 4or needs to be a better tank character than LT. It seems like Prof X should be a better Falcon/Blade combo than those two 3* characters, etc. This really seems to be their next challenge. If they nerf X-Force, then this is a signal that the entire 4* tier has been scrapped. That would be a huge problem since they have put all their eggs in a 4* transition stage of the game.

I honestly feel if the 4or is not better than LT they have the same perception problem. I think that they know this. I just do not know if they have the self-awareness to realize the urgency they need to put forth to get 4or corrected in a prompt manner if she does not perform as they expected. In fact, they make still have a problem if they have balanced here correctly for the 4* tier. My understanding looking at the stats is that they have her correct, but everyone will get to use her on Monday and see first hand for themselves. We both know a lot of players do not have the best perspective. Instead of comparing her against LT, most people are going to compare her to the old 4or. Therefore, a lot of people are going to be unhappy even if they have her perfectly balanced for the 4* tier.

ronin_san

Alright. Here's the deal; the reason I started the thread.

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=25422

Phaserhawk was approached by Miles, conversation, IM, etc.. and he eluded to a possible rework of XFW.
My speculation, I think X-Force will be seeing his power reigned in, and that we are going to see more charged tile creators.
I get that it's Phaserhawk's take, but it was a conversation between he and Miles. So I weigh that with the fact I trust Phaserhawk's opinion on most things in this game.

Mawtful

Of course XF will get nerfed; it's no longer a question of if, but when.

Remember that the twin mantras of "uncertainty" and "this too shall pass" are the core philosophies at the heart of Demiurge.

Uncertainty
I couldn't find too many references to uncertainty in the Venture Beat articles, so I think it must have been on gamasutra or similar. Still, the VB articles have a few choice nuggets which fit. Here's a good one from the last article in the series:

Albert Reed, Demiurge Studios CEO wrote:

Removal of guaranteed cards
In previous events, our card store featured a pack of 10 cards for about $20 USD that was guaranteed to drop the featured character for the event. That’s unusual for card battlers. Typically, this is the newest, most exciting prize for players. In this latest revision of the store, we removed the guarantee while keeping the expected number of featured characters about the same. For many developers at Demiurge, this was a crazy idea. Many of us figured that the entire value of the 10-packs of cards was that they included a guaranteed character in them, but we were fairly unusual in our design here, so we decided to adjust the system. This change went live prior to the visual overhaul, and the results were phenomenal. The first event to feature this new design was a huge success despite having relatively simple content and no new character on sale. We’re not sure why players preferred this system, but we suspect the answer is a simple one: the uncertainty of opening packs is part of what makes them fun! If, in World of Warcraft, the boss was guaranteed to drop the loot you wanted, I suspect the game would be less engaging overall. Theoretically, you could apply the same principle to card battlers.

(source: http://venturebeat.com/2014/05/15/marvel-puzzle-quests-road-to-the-mythical-1-arpdau-part-8-card-store-overhaul-redux/)

The idea is quite simple: people are inclined to pay for certainty. Want to hold onto those points in the last hours of PvP? Why not buy a shield?! Punching above your weight division? Get some boosts! Didn't get the featured hero in that last token? The 10-pack has an increased draw rate!

Yes, MPQ is actually quite generous in giving out HP. And, yes, you can buy certainty with the HP you earn in-game. However there are a lot more players who are not earning HP in-game at a "fast enough" rate to be able to achieve whatever it is that they want. So have "fun" choosing which character to sell so that you can keep the new 3* cover that you got, or hope that you earn the HP for a roster slot in time.

This Too Shall Pass
This little mantra basically means "Those babies are going to complain that we took away 'their' toys, but just ignore them for a few days and launch a new PvE and they'll forget about it pretty quickly."

What does any of this mean for X-Force? Well, come Monday, he'll be our new bastion of certainty. While we're learning how Magneto, Mystique and Thor are going to operate going forward, Wolverine will be the same. Do I leave XF\4or in on defense for PvP? Maybe I'll partner him with Hood, Loki, heck even 3* Thor because I know how those are going to operate. I'm sure there will be a spike in Simulator activity, trying to find out the new combo. Sooner or later the dust from these changes will settle, but we already know who's going to be sitting on top of the pile.

Unknown

I'll believe that tgt has been nerfed if every other battle I'm not facing her.

Unknown

and after u realized that not everyone has a dirty and childish mind, what can u actually say to my post?

isnt it right that, by design, legendary characters should be, well, just that? legendary?

if everyone has him, because they paid for that, its just that: a mirrormatch. those who dont have him yet SHOULD not be able to win easily versus them.

in streetfighter terms:

yes, occasionally a good deejay player wins versus a good cammy player. but thats not the norm, since cammy is so much better than deejay. its not 50/50.
deejay has to put MUCH MUCH more work than cammy and play perfectly to win, wheras cammy can tinykitty (amidoingthisright?) it up and still win.

my point is: if u want perfect balance its srsly really easy, just make two characters, which are the same, only different colors.

so why doesnt the deejay player play cammy? maybe he likes his stlye or look or detests hers.
maybe he did kickboxing himself and identifies with him better than with cammy.

u see where this is going? even tho, XF is the best answear for "easy" wins, there are still a lot of reasons for others to stick with their characters. and hey, if u dont want to, then pay up and play cammy (XF)