Thank god cupcakes are gone

We_are_Venom

GrumpySmurf1002 wrote:

We_are_Venom wrote:

Now, these high end alliances will still perform at high levels because the rosters are outrageous thanks to that rapid progression but they will have to actually work at it, as was intended from the start.

Sure, all those 5* covers came from cupcakes and definitely not outrageous spending.

The cascade effect of getting high level rewards both individually and for the alliance can rapidly increase progression without having to dump high sums of money.
40 packs, consistent multiple 4* covers, CP, LT's, champ rewards across the tiers...would provide plenty of opportunities at 5* covers.

Ive pulled 23 5* covers wih far less rewards to do so.

Not saying people dont buy, but i also dont believe its as widespread as you are making it out to be. Im sure its a good mix of both.

We_are_Venom

Daiches wrote:

I feel like I need to add for my peers that We_Are_Venom is not We_R_Venom.

Hmm this mistake has been made before. I was accused of something i had no knowledge of. I think i will change my name to avoid this.

grunth13

We_are_Venom wrote:

Daiches wrote:

I feel like I need to add for my peers that We_Are_Venom is not We_R_Venom.

Hmm this mistake has been made before. I was accused of something i had no knowledge of. I think i will change my name to avoid this.

Well, ****, i was assuming you were we_r_venom...thanks for clearing that up, daiches. I take back my snarky remark about your alliance being a sniper alliance.

Phumade

I got him a provisional 1 event invite to a check rooom. So he'll get a chance to see how check rooms actually work vs misconstruing on what other forumites say. Of course you can all blame me if I just created a sniper.

Of course, since we have no CCs, I'm not really worried that his 3* team will be sniping any 5* players.

Tilesmasher

Unless you have 1 or more high level 5s now you cant hit 1200 without spending much more on shields.

Basically it makes the cost per cp earned higher, which slows your progress even more.

For me personally the cost to transition further from 4 to 5 land has risen too far, this is the first event in 5 months where I'll not earn the 25cp for progression. If it doesn't change by the anniversary I'm done.

Vhailorx

We_are_Venom wrote:

simonsez wrote:

We_are_Venom wrote:

They literally did conspire to hoard points and it was done at the expense of the general playerbase.

Stop using words you don't understand to illustrate concepts that are false. "Hoarding" implies they're monopolizing a fixed resource. That's not how PvP works. The people who were running up scores were doing so at the BENEFIT of the general playerbase, because even if you never saw a cake, it was always easy to find 75 point targets. It's a lot easier to hit 1300 on 75 point matches than to hit 1200 on 38 point matches. Math.

It was not easy finding cupcakes unless you were in on the discussions. Cupcakes absolutely did allow them to monopolize a fixed resource for those high end pvp alliances.

Cupcakes were also allowing high end pvp alliances to completely eliminate most other alliances from any decent end-season rewards by racking up insane amount of points within the alliance. The few outsiders that were allowed to partake were really not a factor in either indivudual placement or season end so it was whatever to them.

Now, these high end alliances will still perform at high levels because the rosters are outrageous thanks to that rapid progression but they will have to actually work at it, as was intended from the start.

There were other coordinates efforts, and probably still are, that looked to take advantage of the playerbase that has no understanding of what cupcakes/baking are. A player unfamiliar with the concept sees a team comprised of garbage but worth big points isnt going to understand why after that win they are about to get steam rolled to the tune of hundreds of points because either A) they attacked an unshieldes baker and retribution is called for it was intentionally setup so they could be spotted and so that they can be the sacrficial lamb.

These are not false concepts. They happened. It happened daily.

The few people that are complaining about the cupcake change are just pissed the free ride to easy progression is over. Its understandable but for most of the patrons of MPQ the elimination of cupcakes is a good thing. Sorry you disagree.

I don't mean this as snark or insult venom, but do you understand how scoring in PVP used to work? Because your posts really make it seem like you don't.

(1) Points are not a fixed resource; there was not a maximum possible number of points in each slice or bracket divided up between the available players. Every time an attack bounces off a shield, the winner gets points, but loser doesn't lose them. So points are added to the system. There is effectively no maximum number of points. That's why cupcakes added points to the system; they produced more attacks that bounced off shields.

(2) You describe a player eating a cake of some sort, and then getting steamrolled by retaliations to the tune of several hundred points. That's not really a realistic for several reasons. IF you saw a 75 point cupcake, then the baker probably has at least 250 points more than you. If you hit that baker while unshielded, the baker would lose a bunch of points (40-75 depending on what score the baker had). The baker would also get a relation node for you. but that node would only be worth 2-5 points (unless the baker waited a long time for you to climb up. But that is implausible for several reasons, not the least of which is that the hypothetical "you" is not on line and the baker therefore has no easy way to know how many points you might have.). There is basically no incentive for the baker to hit you back. Additionally, even if the baker did get angry and put out a hit on you, it is very unlikely that the baker's allies could even see you. They would have to have scores and rosters similar to you so that you would show up as a viable target for their mmr. That's implausible given the scenario of a hapless newbie hitting a super evil mega-whale. I won't say that your scenario has never happened, because there are troll-alliances that like griefing people in this game (just like every other online game ever), and MMR can do some weird things in low-traffic slices.

But you are presenting as a commonplace occurrence something that is EXTREMELY rare if it happens at all, and it really makes me wonder how well you understand the old scoring system. (Again, I don't mean this as an insult or a personal attack. Your statements just do not comport at all with my understanding of how the old system worked.)

Vhailorx

notamutant wrote:

I got to 900 with no shields. I have champed X-23 and Thor that I used all the way up. I got to 599 in one go, sat unshielded over night, and went up to 900 in the morning. Much easier and much less stressful than being at 950 and getting hit before I get 1k points. I did not notice significantly less points than I normally see during either part of the climb. My targets were still a mix of 3 stars, 4s, and 4 star boosted, so my targets didn't get any harder. I almost never got to 1300 before, so whether it is at 1200 or 1300 makes no difference to me anyhow. Now, I get 10 extra CP I never would've gotten from them breaking out the CP reward into two parts. I can get up to a score with 100 points less than before to achieve better rewards. I don't need to shield hop anymore to get there, as it was common getting attacked around 950 before. I am visible for a shorter period of time now to everyone.

Whether people claim cupcakes were great or not, I can say personally this event has been much better for me than any other PvP event I can remember, and with the upcoming 10 CP rewards lower, it will only get better. So all those claiming the change would hurt me even if I didn't see cupcakes, I can now say authoritatively from actual experience they were 100% wrong. Top 10 in my bracket is from 10th place at 1322 points and 1st at 2278 points (with 6.5 hours to go). I am 25th with 916 points.

I agree with you to a point. Moving 10cp down the prog ladder was good for everyone. so kudos to demi there!

And if the 4* cover reward was easy for you, that's also good. I don't think it's fair to say that it was "easier" than the old 1k target would have been. I know from my experience that hitting 1k, or even 1.1k before shielding or being hit at all was relatively easy in the weeks when I had strong boosted 4* champs like 4Thor. So I suspect that this event would have been easier than normal for you in the old system too.

But it seems both myopic and maybe even a bit callous to say "this change is fine because it doesn't really affect the things I want, and I don't care if it makes life harder for lots of other people." Obviously the ideal solution would be to create a system that benefits everyone equally, newbs, vets, whales, devs, pubs, etc. But that's not possible. It seems to me that what has happened with this change is the following:

(1) There is basically no change for newbie rosters, or people who play PVP casually or suboptimally. Reach 200-600 is still about the same as before
(2) There is basically no change for 5* players. they can climb to 1200 without much trouble or expense (tedious though it might be to fight the same defensive team almost the whole way).
(3) 3* and 4* players have mostly the same experience from 600-900 as they did in the old system. They can generally reach the 4* cover with modest effort (and no shields if they have strong boosteds for a given week).
(4) 3* and 4* players get completely **** above 900 and have no way to climb to 1.2k without doing 4-6 1-match shield hops.

1-3 are basically a whole lot of "nothing to see here, move along." And #4 is the only meaningful change. And it's a really bad change for players. Something like 20-30% of players in slice 4 could reach the 1.3k level. Maybe even more. In fist bump it seems more likely to be 10% or less.

Why should the playerbase be cheering when nothing really changed for most people, and 10-20% of the dedicated veteran community is getting screwed?

jredd

not to mention, if you were lucky enough to find a cupcake or two, you were probably hitting them and then shielding right after, so the retaliation thing was a moot point anyways.

simonsez

We_are_Venom wrote:

It was not easy finding cupcakes unless you were in on the discussions.

Unless you can't find the skip button, this is patently false; and it's completely irrelevant as a response to "even you never saw a cake"

Dragon_Nexus

Vhailorx wrote:

(3) 3* and 4* players have mostly the same experience from 600-900 as they did in the old system. They can generally reach the 4* cover with modest effort (and no shields if they have strong boosteds for a given week).
(4) 3* and 4* players get completely **** above 900 and have no way to climb to 1.2k without doing 4-6 1-match shield hops.

1-3 are basically a whole lot of "nothing to see here, move along." And #4 is the only meaningful change. And it's a really bad change for players. Something like 20-30% of players in slice 4 could reach the 1.3k level. Maybe even more. In fist bump it seems more likely to be 10% or less.

Why should the playerbase be cheering when nothing really changed for most people, and 10-20% of the dedicated veteran community is getting screwed?

See, 3 is where I am. When the 3* roster was nerfed, my chances of reaching 1000 were really slim. I don't think I've done it more than twice since the champion update happened. I gave up on S4 since getting over 850 was a chore, switching to S3 was a blessing, I could consistently get to about 950 on a good event.

So moving the 4* reward down to 900 points is only a good thing for me and others in my position. 1300 was always an unobtainable dream and 1200 is about the same. My goal was always "Try to get that 4*" and I failed every time simply because I'd get hit faster than I could win.
So now if I get a 4* cover out of even half the PvPs in a season, I'm a happy camper. It's a definitely improvement. The top progression might be harder to get for the 5* players, but we all benefit from 10CP along the way...so that's another way everyone gains.

There's still a disconnect between the rewards though. PvP should favour placement above progression. PvE was always focussed on placement over progression but the new clearance levels go a long way towards fixing that. We can only hope PvP gets a similar treatment. Better rewards for placing well rather than the goal being to chase progress.

GurlBYE

You guys are using a broken ruler to measure progress.

You should obviously be reaching 900 easily if you type the words champed 4 star. That reward isn't meant for you. It's meant for people like me filling out their 4 star roster. You've fully covered and iso'd out your 4 star. you are looking for cp.

The issue is the second I hit 700 (not even the score for the 3 star cover lol) I get mauled because the funnel of points has been placed over a wider set of scores. Everyone's trying to scrape by, so you go 30 points up and 70-90 down.

All this did was make 4 star players feel how everyone below them feels.

"wow it's certainly way harder to reach the point that the awards for me are placed"

Not much here changed outside of the defensive teams.

I guess pve was made "better" so I'll just have to deal with that, because nothing changed here for me.

Vhailorx

Dragon_Nexus wrote:

Vhailorx wrote:

(3) 3* and 4* players have mostly the same experience from 600-900 as they did in the old system. They can generally reach the 4* cover with modest effort (and no shields if they have strong boosteds for a given week).
(4) 3* and 4* players get completely **** above 900 and have no way to climb to 1.2k without doing 4-6 1-match shield hops.

1-3 are basically a whole lot of "nothing to see here, move along." And #4 is the only meaningful change. And it's a really bad change for players. Something like 20-30% of players in slice 4 could reach the 1.3k level. Maybe even more. In fist bump it seems more likely to be 10% or less.

Why should the playerbase be cheering when nothing really changed for most people, and 10-20% of the dedicated veteran community is getting screwed?

See, 3 is where I am. When the 3* roster was nerfed, my chances of reaching 1000 were really slim. I don't think I've done it more than twice since the champion update happened. I gave up on S4 since getting over 850 was a chore, switching to S3 was a blessing, I could consistently get to about 950 on a good event.

So moving the 4* reward down to 900 points is only a good thing for me and others in my position. 1300 was always an unobtainable dream and 1200 is about the same. My goal was always "Try to get that 4*" and I failed every time simply because I'd get hit faster than I could win.
So now if I get a 4* cover out of even half the PvPs in a season, I'm a happy camper. It's a definitely improvement. The top progression might be harder to get for the 5* players, but we all benefit from 10CP along the way...so that's another way everyone gains.

There's still a disconnect between the rewards though. PvP should favour placement above progression. PvE was always focussed on placement over progression but the new clearance levels go a long way towards fixing that. We can only hope PvP gets a similar treatment. Better rewards for placing well rather than the goal being to chase progress.

I don't know what your roster looked like when the champion system rolled out. Personally, I had all 40 3*s optimally covered, but most of them were parked at 120. I had 4 fully covered 4*s (IMHB, KP, Elektra, Fury), all around level 200. I never had much trouble getting to 1k from January 2016 through June 1, 2016, during which time I was not on Line at all.

your roster is currently about as good as mine (10 4* champs, though you have more 5* covers than I do). If our statements are true, and you rarely made 1k in PVP while I have made it pretty consistently since champion day, and assuming that neither of us broke the progression curve with large outlays of $$, then I must have had a weaker roster than you on champion day. So i suspect there was something else about your particular PVP playstyle that contributed to your difficult time reaching 1k (maybe you play in short bursts at peak times?)

Looking at your current roster, there is no reason that you should not have been hitting 1k all summer long with 0-1 shield and no Line coordination. I know that is possible because I did it myself for months with a very similar roster.

LFChikarason

I rarely get cupcakes, and never go hunting for them, if I get them, it's a pretty big deal. So I was very surprised to see this one on my way to 1200 in Fist Bump

Blahahah

LFChikarason wrote:

I rarely get cupcakes, and never go hunting for them, if I get them, it's a pretty big deal. So I was very surprised to see this one on my way to 1200 in Fist Bump

Maybe... that person just has a very small skewed roster?

Phumade

LOL, No idea how that happened.

That looks super easy to a 5* roster, but I feel bad for any 3* rosters that are gonna try and chew through a champed 5*

cyineedsn

Honest question, because I'm unsure if I'm missing something. For the people that reportedly had problems hitting 1k, and can now hit 900 comfortably, that's great! Looking ahead to future goals, do you plan to eventually hit max progression in pvp and transition to 5*s? There's a couple of posts in this thread already of people with strong 4* rosters hitting some rough roadblocks there, I mean...that's got to be a little disconcerting, no?

GurlBYE

Phumade wrote:

LOL, No idea how that happened.

That looks super easy to a 5* roster, but I feel bad for any 3* rosters that are gonna try and chew through a champed 5*

42k health is more than all 3 will have this even unless you're slapping in hulk or something.

5's are nothing to be played with when you have a 3 star roster.

That OML can literally knock a 3 star roster out of match damage haha, especially with the right cascades. The most damaging attacks in the tier aren't powerful enough to turn tides.
Like magnetos blue, Iron fist is relevant during this event, Iron mans expensive as sin powers that also drain other AP and a few others don't break 10K.

fmftint

We_are_Venom wrote:

Cupcakes were also allowing high end pvp alliances to completely eliminate most other alliances from any decent end-season rewards by racking up insane amount of points within the alliance. The few outsiders that were allowed to partake were really not a factor in either indivudual placement or season end so it was whatever to them.

Alliance season rank 26-100 HAVE THE EXACT SAME REWARD! CCs or no CCs alliance 1-25 will largely remain the same.

GurlBYE

Alliance structure in the top won't change because they are still the dudes sitting at 3000 points on the top of the bracket.

All this did was stop the top 10 from being points from 1800-3000 you couldn't get to being points from 900 to 3000 you can't get.

notamutant

cyineedsn wrote:

Honest question, because I'm unsure if I'm missing something. For the people that reportedly had problems hitting 1k, and can now hit 900 comfortably, that's great! Looking ahead to future goals, do you plan to eventually hit max progression in pvp and transition to 5*s? There's a couple of posts in this thread already of people with strong 4* rosters hitting some rough roadblocks there, I mean...that's got to be a little disconcerting, no?

I wouldn't so much say I had problems hitting 1k, as it was annoying and sometimes costly in HP. If I can spend only 75 HP on shields three times a week = 225, rather than 75 + 150 =225 x 3 = 675, that is 450 HP less a week going out. That is a huge amount of saved HP. It was also stressful sometimes. Remember, you become visible to everyone somewhere around 600+ points, so you just need about 300 points before the attacks roll in instead of 400, which is a huge difference. Forget the HP cost to get to 1.3k, that would be requiring either tons more time to perfectly play out hops, or 600+ HP an event.

But getting back to your question about how I plan to progress, the answer is simple: I don't expect to progress in the 5 star game. Its impossible for me. I had the worst luck possible when 5 stars first came out. I first got tons of 4 stars I didn't max (IW, Starlord, etc.). Then I got a bunch of covers for 4s I could use. When I did get new 5 star covers, it was usually spread out to be one or two per 5 star, thus completely useless. Or I would get my Phoenix with 6 green covers, 0 purple and 1 red. Useless. So what would getting more CP really have done for me? Given my horrible luck, it would've probably just meant more Starlords and IW I was throwing out, and getting less ISO than the HP I spent on shields was worth. With the enhancement to boosted 4s, they can actually handle their own now against lower level 5 stars. I don't see max 5s except 800+ in PvP, which I no longer have to worry about dealing with as much anymore. Why progress to 5 stars unevenly and unreliably when I can don't have to fight 5 stars yet and have a stronger 4 star roster? Additionally, I will be getting an extra 10 CP going forward from PvP I didn't before. With the extra HP, I will be saving up more HP to buy out a whole vault to get specific 4s I want and move up that way. Remember, at higher champion levels, 4 stars can give you enough CP and legendary tokens to get new pulls pretty often.

TLDR: My luck is bad, always was, RNG pulls are horrible. Currently 15 CP extra is just 7.5 more classic legendaries a month at a cost of well over 2k extra HP a month. Would rather have HP and save up and just keep building my 4 star roster until they fix RNG.