New Mission Difficulty For All Story Events *Updated

GrumpySmurf1002

"David wrote:

Moore"]
To achieve this goal we set out to accomplish 4 things:
reduce the negative impact of having 5-Stars characters with a few covers
reduce playing the game around a schedule,
reduce how long battles take
and improve high level players' ability to perform well in events.

If you have timers and placement rewards, the above bolded can never, ever be true.

Optimal play and thus performing well in events will now require doing all of your clears at a set time (dictated by the slice chosen), 5 before, 4 after.

So 9 clears consecutively. That's at best 3 hours straight, at a specific time. At worst it's longer than that.

This fact has been screamed from the rooftops during every test, but continues to be ignored.

Whoever your data analyst is, fire him.

deadtaco

"David wrote:

Moore"]reduce the negative impact of having 5-Stars characters with a few covers

Can you get more specifics about this? I was going to sell my lone 5* after the current PVP season as I am still getting into 3*s. It has helped me in PVP but ruined PVE for all intents.

TheVulture

I like the fixed reward sequence, as I'm still working towards maxing 3* level so have been enjoying standard tokens and CP's recently.

Daiches

Now that you have decided which direction to take with PVE, could you first please run a test again of this format in a more difficult event, or for good rewards? Preferably a Heroic event? Or something like Venom Bomb?

Because Rocket and Groot is one of the easiest events there is, and thus results will be skewed because of that. Most of the test events have also been for pretty poor rewards, so competition was lower than for one with decent rewards. Or great rewards like a release.

So please consider doing one more test.

pheregas

Well, I guess I'm done with "competitive PVE."

Story mode is now just a farm for iso and cp. I can't, won't, and simply don't have the time to grind down every node as quickly as possible and then grind grind grind for one point per match at the end (the trivial one, of course as it is worth as much as the hardest node by that point.)

I'll pick up my new character every week to two weeks in PVP.

This is all fine, of course. I still get to play my favorite match three game, but only for progression prizes now without the stress of the final grind. I still get the new character. I may even get out of s2!

dsds

So instead of 8 hour clears, you play all the clears in a marathon 2-4 hour block to maximize points for placement requiring more health packs, surprise, surprise!

What a nice tie in to the reduction of health packs in taco tokens. I knew something was up when you guys changed the health packs in taco tokens.

Esheris

Seems like this would have been a great opportunity to give better Iso rewards with the difficulty scaling up and having tiered rewards. Still feels like the game is refusing to except we have 4*'s and 5*'s to level up.

Vhailorx

OJSP wrote:

Vhailorx wrote:

So what is the new optimal schedule?

I think it will be

(1) hit every node for max points as fast as possible
(2) hit every node at least 1 more time to start the 24-hour refresh counter as quickly as possible.
(3) grind nodes down until they are 1 hit away from 1 point at your leisure
(4) do a final grind on each node as late as possible, leaving the highest point nodes for last as they will regen points at the highest rate.

Am I missing something? If not, then there will still be a massive grind at the beginning of each sub, but the end of each sub will be a bit more leisurely.

1 and 2 are correct, but don't do no.3. Instead, beat the most trivial node until 1 and "no life" it until the end of the sub (I love that expression..)

Then do the final grind near the end of the sub. We want to let the nodes refresh as much as possible before we start clearing them again.

If we grind the nodes down at the beginning of the sub, they we wouldn't have the initial 25% points regeneration.. However, since someone can still "no life" the trivial node anyway, this discussion is kinda moot.

For a 24 hour sub, the nodes will never regen more than once. So starting the regen as soon as possible is essential to getting an optimal score.

But the total amount of points regenerated by each node over the entire 24 hour sub will be less than each node's maximum points, right? It takes 24 hours to regen 25%, so in a 24 hour sub, each sub will only regen 25% That's my interpretation of this (admittedly somewhat ambiguous) statement from Anthony:

Every time a mission is beaten past its maximum difficulty, it takes 24 hours for a mission to be worth the maximum amount of points again.

So if I am right, then as long as you start the regen counter as fast as possible, and make sure to collect the last points as late as possible, you can do some clears in the middle of the sub without penalty.

I suppose it's possible that the rate of point regeneration increases, so that nodes at 75% of max value and at 25% of max value will both reach max value in 24 hours, but that doesn't seem very likely. If that's the case, then the optimal strategy would be to clear everything to 1 as fast as possible, and then wait as long as possible before grinding everything down to 1 again right at the end of the sub. (and presumably someone will do that PLUS spam the trivial nodes at 1 pt for 20 or so hours to rack up a few extra hundred or thousand points.)

Wooodd

David, thanks for the info.

As this is a permanent change and not another test. Any chance a demigod could swoop down and field a little q&a to dispell some concerns and explain their rationale behind how the changes will achieve their stated goals?

I know I'm shooting for the moon but nothing to loose.

rastafari7

Either stick with the 8hr timer or remove placement.
It's that simple.

Skygazing

Lmao we've reached Poe's Law here.

Players repeatedly state that they want pure progression. Placement continues.

Players repeatedly state that this creates a ridiculous play schedule for said placement. System goes unchanged.

Players repeatedly state that this system actually encourages more grinding. System goes unchanged.

Players repeatedly state how horrible crit boosts are as rewards. Crit boosts still in the loot table.

Players repeatedly state how lack of ISO is destroying morale. ISO rewards remain the same.

I've been taking a break from the game for a couple of reasons, but it looks like I might be extending that indefinitely.

Jasonzakibe

tanis3303 wrote:

Dude! You guys got it!! I only see one thing on there that needs to go and I think we're all set here.

*Hint* It starts with C and rhymes with Rit Boosts

Yeah! Casual fit boots are ugly!

Edit On topic: These changes legitimately make my life better. Maybe changes to a cell phone game shouldn't affect my life, and that makes me pathetic, but it's still true.

PeterGibbons316

Vhailorx wrote:

OJSP wrote:

Vhailorx wrote:

So what is the new optimal schedule?

I think it will be

(1) hit every node for max points as fast as possible
(2) hit every node at least 1 more time to start the 24-hour refresh counter as quickly as possible.
(3) grind nodes down until they are 1 hit away from 1 point at your leisure
(4) do a final grind on each node as late as possible, leaving the highest point nodes for last as they will regen points at the highest rate.

Am I missing something? If not, then there will still be a massive grind at the beginning of each sub, but the end of each sub will be a bit more leisurely.

1 and 2 are correct, but don't do no.3. Instead, beat the most trivial node until 1 and "no life" it until the end of the sub (I love that expression..)

Then do the final grind near the end of the sub. We want to let the nodes refresh as much as possible before we start clearing them again.

If we grind the nodes down at the beginning of the sub, they we wouldn't have the initial 25% points regeneration.. However, since someone can still "no life" the trivial node anyway, this discussion is kinda moot.

For a 24 hour sub, the nodes will never regen more than once. So starting the regen as soon as possible is essential to getting an optimal score.

But the total amount of points regenerated by each node over the entire 24 hour sub will be less than each node's maximum points, right? It takes 24 hours to regen 25%, so in a 24 hour sub, each sub will only regen 25% That's my interpretation of this (admittedly somewhat ambiguous) statement from Anthony:

Every time a mission is beaten past its maximum difficulty, it takes 24 hours for a mission to be worth the maximum amount of points again.

So if I am right, then as long as you start the regen counter as fast as possible, and make sure to collect the last points as late as possible, you can do some clears in the middle of the sub without penalty.

I suppose it's possible that the rate of point regeneration increases, so that nodes at 75% of max value and at 25% of max value will both reach max value in 24 hours, but that doesn't seem very likely. If that's the case, then the optimal strategy would be to clear everything to 1 as fast as possible, and then wait as long as possible before grinding everything down to 1 again right at the end of the sub. (and presumably someone will do that PLUS spam the trivial nodes at 1 pt for 20 or so hours to rack up a few extra hundred or thousand points.)

This is how I am reading it too.

Every time a mission is beaten past its maximum difficulty, it takes 24 hours for a mission to be worth the maximum amount of points again.

Could just be poorly communicated (hard to imagine with their track record for stellar communication), but this seems different from all previous tests (and likely the most miserable of them all as well.) To me this says that the refresh rate (previously fixed at (node max/6) / 8 hours), will actually vary to grant max points after 24h. So in previous tests you would clear everything enough times to start the 24h timer, and then stop since clearing again would increase the timer by an additional 24h. Sounds like this new system will not increase that timer, and so the optimal play is to grind everything to 1 at start (since it doesn't matter whether the node is at 75% of max or 1 - it only takes 24h to refresh), and then grind everything to 1 again at the finish. So you grind 9 at open, 4 at close, and then 9 at the next sub open again.....13 in a row. That's fun right?

JFisch

I am, as always, cautiously pessimistic.

Guess I'll have to play the same amount of time that gets me in the top 20 on release events currently and see if it still puts me in the top 50/100.

If so, whatever, I'll adapt.

If not, time to turn green and smash things.

dsds

Skygazing wrote:

Lmao we've reached Poe's Law here.

Players repeatedly state that they want pure progression. Placement continues.

Players repeatedly state that this creates a ridiculous play schedule for said placement. System goes unchanged.

Players repeatedly state that this system actually encourages more grinding. System goes unchanged.

Players repeatedly state how horrible crit boosts are as rewards. Crit boosts still in the loot table.

Players repeatedly state how lack of ISO is destroying morale. ISO rewards remain the same.

I've been taking a break from the game for a couple of reasons, but it looks like I might be extending that indefinitely.

To be fair, this is a good change for people not looking for placement rewards. You want a pve system without placement rewards? Then play it and not expect the placement rewards. I am not happy about it but they can't make everyone happy. It's no different than the developed taking the placement rewards away from everyone. I highly doubt they would ever put placement rewards as a progression reward.

I use critical boosts personally, but if you don't want it then don't play the node for the 7th time. A majority of people don't play the node the 7th time anyway. I am grateful that they didn't leave the cp on the 7th go.

I am semi ok with this change because I can play at my own pace and get almost maximum points. I can join a slice anytime I want. Disclosure, I no longer expect the top placement rewards. top 50 is good enough for me. Hopefully this change will not put me under the top 50 with my playstyle.

Polares

Stax the Foyer wrote:

I assume the scaling cap is officially gone. Will I be seeing level 500 enemies again?

Because that's a good way for me to decide to lock a big part of this game away in the No Thank You Cabinet, and that doesn't leave a lot of game left.

THIS REALLY SUCKS!

Enemy scaling was very hard for 4>5 and 5 players in the last test. Devs need to realize that enemies dont scale corretly over 350, goons at those levels are much much stronger than at their capped levels. A muscle at 400 creates two 1500 strike tiles every couple of turns! I cant imagine what a 500 level muscle will do.

And to make things worse most of us just have two levelled 5s, so we cant chose or use any other char to better cope with the different enemies.

This is most probably the end of my competitive days of PvE, and in the events were max progression is too high is going to suck.

scottee

I think this is actually decent.

Grinding the 1pt trivial node is only going to matter at the very very top. Like people going for top 2. Timing on point regeneration is easily going to affect differentiation far more than who grinds the trivial node the most.

revskip

Seems like mostly positive changes for my play style. The first Rocket and Groot test was pretty much what I wanted to see with the exception of the 20 point nodes. They addressed that and made most of the best loot drop more consistently and added the crit boosts in the very last clear so most of the time I won't need to bother with that clear unless I am grinding for placement.

Hopefully the 25 CP in progression is tied to 4 clears per node and this will be a big improvement from the 8 hour timer for me.

Vhailorx

Dsds:

I don't think ignoring placement is the sort of thing people want. It's not that placement is offensive to people, it's that most of the best rewards in pve are buried in the competitive placement rewards.

People want pve rewards to be truly pve, but it seems clear that demi isn't willing to risk giving out "too many" good rewards if they don't set the difficult right, and placement is an easy way of ensuring that a fixed percentage of the player base gets the best stuff.

Ojsp,

I must concede that you are right. Point regen means that even if the node only regens 25 points during the whole event, you can double-dip on those points by waiting as long as possible after the reven counter starts. What a stupid system.

Optimal play his now clear everything asap until the counters start. Then wait and grind everything to 1 as late as possible. (with optional extra credit for grinding the easiest trivial node down to 1 asap and continuously grinding for 1 point throughout the sub until you start your final grind.)

Demi: you have fixed some of the problems illustrated during the earlier tests. But you have not fixed many of the underlying pve problems (e.g. rewards aren't good enough, the system imposes a pretty brutal optimal schedule, and pve as a whole remains too competitive)

babinro

As with all of these tests I'll going into this feeling cautiously optimistic.

I love that you increased node rewards based on difficulty. Many of us (myself included) would have loved to see the rewards dished out based on enemy levels to promote leveling your roster. This strikes me as D3's way of meeting us down the middle. Much appreciated!

Removing the RNG nature of the rewards AND putting Crit Boost last?
Must be my Birthday! Everyone whose playing PvE for the ISO rewards thanks you for this player friendly change. The CP rewards being given out by 4 clears is amazingly player friendly as well!

I question the decision to INCREASE difficulty on required missions. I personally found them to be the MOST CHALLENGING as a 5* tier player. Clearly my experience wasn't shared with those at other tiers of play given this change. It does say slightly higher so maybe it won't be too bad.

Primary Concern

Limited Roster Events. I hope this was internally tested for limited heroic events because I have no faith in this new format transitioning well into those events. All of the test PvE's were dramatically more difficult than the old PvE format. Many of us already struggle heavily to get 7 clears within the old format. There's a serious risk that the new format will make that content feel completely unfair/unplayable for your veteran players. This is especially true if the 4* selection is poor (cho, elektra, IW, etc) and they need to approach as a 3* player with 5* tier scaling.