New Mission Difficulty For All Story Events *Updated

Bowgentle

nick_chicane wrote:

GrumpySmurf1002 wrote:

nick_chicane wrote:

I'd argue that it would be success. If you can create a system that is that unpleasant to grind, then people will stop doing it. We'll eventually end up with scoreboards where the top scores will likely just be people who have cleared the nodes 7 times maximum. The optimum players/grinders will stop doing it.

Top scores are still going to be near optimal. Unpleasantries have never been a stopping point for people to grind.

For every single PVE event from this day forward? I'd like to meet someone who could keep that up for even a month.

Look at the t10 alliances on the PVE leaderboard.
Those _have_ been doing this for months.

Softcapped rosters help enormously with that.

Nick441234

Bowgentle wrote:

nick_chicane wrote:

GrumpySmurf1002 wrote:

nick_chicane wrote:

I'd argue that it would be success. If you can create a system that is that unpleasant to grind, then people will stop doing it. We'll eventually end up with scoreboards where the top scores will likely just be people who have cleared the nodes 7 times maximum. The optimum players/grinders will stop doing it.

Top scores are still going to be near optimal. Unpleasantries have never been a stopping point for people to grind.

For every single PVE event from this day forward? I'd like to meet someone who could keep that up for even a month.

Look at the t10 alliances on the PVE leaderboard.
Those _have_ been doing this for months.

Softcapped rosters help enormously with that.

With this new PVE format though? Having to clear them all 4 times right from the start, then grind them at the end, and then clear the new sub 4 times without taking a break?

I want to see how long people can keep that up for.

simonsez

nick_chicane wrote:

I'd argue that it would be success. If you can create a system that is that unpleasant to grind, then people will stop doing it.

"Good news! Customers complaints at our restaurant are way down!"

"Yes, that's because the food is now so bad, no one comes anymore... "

simonsez

KrisPWales wrote:

If I can do 4x clears spread however I want throughout he day and get the 25CP I'll be more than happy with the change.

It's too bad that wasn't possible under the old system. Oh, wait....

Nick441234

simonsez wrote:

nick_chicane wrote:

I'd argue that it would be success. If you can create a system that is that unpleasant to grind, then people will stop doing it.

"Good news! Customers complaints at our restaurant are way down!"

"Yes, that's because the food is now so bad, no one comes anymore... "

But in this instance the game isn't bad. The bad part was actually the grinding. If they find a way that discourages grinding, then they are taking out the bad part of the events.

alaeth

Logging in to chime in with my impressions...

1. love the predictable scaling - true healers aren't a detriment anymore! Dake, XFboys and others are back in rotation
2. loving the mutli-clear before points start dropping - I didn't realize how well this fits into my person playstyle.
3. scaling makes Championed characters feel powerful - XFDP can boot-stomp the first 3 clears on a node with impunity... makes my work and effort on my roster actually feel worth it.

I'm by no means a top PvE player - no new character releases, I'm lucky if I get one, typically I don't. For events running on the weekends, I can usually make it to top 50 placement, but mostly I just play for the progression anyways.

hodayathink

GrumpySmurf1002 wrote:

simonsez wrote:

nick_chicane wrote:

Theres simply no way people can keep up hitting them 4 times as soon as an event opens. You'll just end up hating the game in a few events time.

And given the way the devs interpret data, when they look at how far fewer people are spending time grinding under the new system, they'll high-five themselves and consider this mess a success.

This was the exact thought I had. This is the same group that was SHOCKED when a fixed number of points led to a whole bunch of people that went and got them.

There's two results:

a) player engagement goes down - devs congratulate themselves that players aren't on a schedule.

b) players still grind the heck out of it - devs congratulate themselves that scaling is set well.

There's no outcome that leads to c) players get a system that's friendly for competitive and casual players.

But what I've seen (and this is because I don't always shoot for top placement):

While the top 10-20 stays about where they are, point-wise (because those are the hardcore people that will grind no matter what), the middle of the pack goes a decent amount higher with the lack of a timer. Basically, sometimes I only shoot to play enough to get the event tokens from sub placement, with no care about placement. In the old system, I can usually pull that with two clears and a couple extra essentials. The couple times I've tried to pull that with during tests, I've needed to do three full clears, if not a little bit more than that. The top might play less, but it looks like the middle and the bottom play more.

GrumpySmurf1002

hodayathink wrote:

While the top 10-20 stays about where they are, point-wise (because those are the hardcore people that will grind no matter what), the middle of the pack goes a decent amount higher with the lack of a timer. Basically, sometimes I only shoot to play enough to get the event tokens from sub placement, with no care about placement. In the old system, I can usually pull that with two clears and a couple extra essentials. The couple times I've tried to pull that with during tests, I've needed to do three full clears, if not a little bit more than that. The top might play less, but it looks like the middle and the bottom play more.

Right, so that's why this argument of "well now I can get the same rewards for same effort!" stuff is bunk.

The group doing exactly 4 clears are now are all on top of each other. So either
a) that group is going to have to clear as fast as possible for the tiebreaker, or
b) they have to do more than 4 clears to separate themselves. And those extra clears/points are going to the people clearing most optimally.

In both cases => playing most optimally to the timer is still required for placement. Just because the timer is 24h instead of 8h doesn't change that. People are going to learn that quickly, especially when the first new release rolls around.

fmftint

The couple times I've tried to pull that with during tests, I've needed to do three full clears, if not a little bit more than that. The top might play less, but it looks like the middle and the bottom play more.

No, they play the same, but get more points because the system fixed them full node points 4x

GrumpySmurf1002

nick_chicane wrote:

With this new PVE format though? Having to clear them all 4 times right from the start, then grind them at the end, and then clear the new sub 4 times without taking a break?

I want to see how long people can keep that up for.

The sickest people in this game are those in a top 25 PvE alliance. They were playing optimally back with 2h24m refreshes. This will feel like Shangri-la in comparison.

Nick441234

GrumpySmurf1002 wrote:

nick_chicane wrote:

With this new PVE format though? Having to clear them all 4 times right from the start, then grind them at the end, and then clear the new sub 4 times without taking a break?

I want to see how long people can keep that up for.

The sickest people in this game are those in a top 25 PvE alliance. They were playing optimally back with 2h24m refreshes. This will feel like Shangri-la in comparison.

Then I worry about their lives as a whole cause they must literally play MPQ 24/7.

I do 4 clears over 24 hours, and even I think thats borderline too much of my life being wasted on a game.

amusingfoo1

I've got mixed feelings about this. I think it's great for everyone who doesn't care about reaching top-10, especially those who only care about progression and farming cp. It really blows for trying to reach the top, however.

Also, and probably more importantly, the scaling is not great. My top node has reached a bit past level 450, and it takes forever to clear those nodes. Even the ones that aren't terribly difficult (the goon node at the top of the second sub, for instance), still take a long time thanks to the enormous number of hit points they have. The Jugs/Muscle/Muscle node in the first sub had almost 160k hp. Thank goodness the scaling on the Muscle on that node was turned down; I'm pretty sure I wouldn't have been able to do it otherwise. Certainly, I would have wiped a couple of times (came very close once, as it was, losing two characters).

So this is definitely a mixed bag.

Vhailorx

So my final enemy levels are noticeably higher with the new scaling, but they are about as challenging because extra enemy levels mean less health and match damage than previously. So I think it's important not be alarmed by the sticker price (i.e., levels) before actually playing the opponents.

(which isn't to say that I love the new format or want to step back from my earlier criticisms, just that levels aren't the biggest problem).

veny

My feeling so far:
PvE became a bit harder in later rounds, but thanks to point and reward system, there is no actual need to go above 4th attempt (unless you miss some sub-event completely). I also dont have to log in each 8 hours to reach maximum efficiency of gathering points which is something i like the most.
All in all i havent found anything i could complain about...

Keegan

nick_chicane wrote:

With this new PVE format though? Having to clear them all 4 times right from the start, then grind them at the end, and then clear the new sub 4 times without taking a break?

I want to see how long people can keep that up for.

We'll keep it up for a pretty long time.

The previous system still required a two to three hour grind before sub end, then up to an hour and a half clearing after the sub opened, depending on the event and roster. This system, for this event, has the exact same time commitment with the added bonus of no 8hr clears to worry about.

It's a like a vacation for competitive PVE, frankly.

dsds

When looking at the new mission difficulty, try to discard the placement rewards. I think they left the placement rewards to keep the top grinders happy since there's a higher chance, they are whales. There's not doubt in my mind that this game is catering to whales now.

But they have thrown the casual players a bone. Yes placement rewards are important, but most of the time, the best rewards are in the top 50 or 100 depending on the event. If you analyze from just progression rewards, more players will hit higher progression rewards. As there is no timer, so more points are generated by people who don't play on a schedule.

Here's my view on player's distribution in an event. Again this is highly dependent on the bracket you are in. 4 clears probably about 100 people that do that. So out of those 100 people, maybe about 50 people do more than 4 clears. So this leaves about 900 people who just randomly play and don't compete for top 100. I'd say about 200 just play a few nodes and never repeat. So that leaves about 700 people in the bracket who may play clear a node more than once, but not on a schedule. These players will get a higher progression rewards compared to 50 people on top ranks that would have to grind a little bit more.

Keep in mind those people who do 4 clears no longer have to do it on schedule which is a huge benefit. I think people would be willing to lose a 3* cover or play an extra 3 nodes to get the three star cover and gain the benefit of not playing on an 8 hour scehdule. Also don't forget some people play 4 clears on schedule specifically to get the progression reward and don't particularly aim for high rank. You can see this in the leaderboards. A lot of people stop playing once they hit progression. I'd say only 50 people play past progression.

Overall 800 people benefit compared with 50 that do not.

Nick441234

Anyone else finding the essential nodes are maxing out ridiculously high? The 4* CP node with Muscle/Hood/Bullseye has maxed out at 262 for me. In previous events it would max out around 170. This is far too excessive.

My hardest fight did indeed top out at 288. Thats a good 40 levels higher than I'm used to. My roster wont be able to handle that in other, harder PVEs.

Vhailorx

nick_chicane wrote:

Anyone else finding the essential nodes are maxing out ridiculously high? The 4* CP node with Muscle/Hood/Bullseye has maxed out at 262 for me. In previous events it would max out around 170. This is far too excessive.

My hardest fight did indeed top out at 288. Thats a good 40 levels higher than I'm used to. My roster wont be able to handle that in other, harder PVEs.

Yes, levels are higher, but at least above 270ish they mean less now. check the health and ability/match damage. Are they also much higher than you typically see?

theorangemisfit

This is still a nightmare, maybe it's just this event, but I don't like fighting a Hood with 7,000 HP and really don't like Muscles with 14,000...

kennardfr

Like most I have a problem with scaling. My last essential went from 126 in first clean to 286 at the fourth. Which means I did not get my fourth clean and thus missed the CP I often got before. The new system seems OK but the scaling goes up much too fast.