***** The Hulk (Bruce Banner) *****

jobob

I'm trying to like Banner, but so far... I'm just not feeling it.

I see potential... but there's one thing that really annoys me: his match damage (especially as Hulk) should be higher. Since his green is fairly lackluster, the match damage should really be his big feature. And, his best use is as a tank... but the problem with that is that you likely have other stonger 5* that came out before him, so he doesn't really tank. I'm lucky if I get him tanking 1 color as Hulk.

The way I would fix it would be by only giving him high match damage in 2 colors (as opposed to 3), but increase the match damage for those two by 50%. That way he can do a lot more damage on his matches, and he will tank even if you have a 5* at a higher level.

Vhailorx

jobob wrote:

I'm trying to like Banner, but so far... I'm just not feeling it.

I see potential... but there's one thing that really annoys me: his match damage (especially as Hulk) should be higher. Since his green is fairly lackluster, the match damage should really be his big feature. And, his best use is as a tank... but the problem with that is that you likely have other stonger 5* that came out before him, so he doesn't really tank. I'm lucky if I get him tanking 1 color as Hulk.

The way I would fix it would be by only giving him high match damage in 2 colors (as opposed to 3), but increase the match damage for those two by 50%. That way he can do a lot more damage on his matches, and he will tank even if you have a 5* at a higher level.

Banner is a good example of a really solidly designed mechanic that just doesn't work well in the game for extrinsic reasons.

The basic design of gather green and then go crazy with the hulk is a good one. (and the other two powers are slightly under-powered but well designed support skills. The blue makes it hard to completely deny banner the green he needs to transform, and punishes ap denial with direct damage. But 7 tiles is too low a threshold. they should have learned from Chulk. And without teammate tricks, the black is basically not worth using until banner is the last man standing, but it makes it somewhat dangerous to leave him for last, or to use an aoe that downs to allies + hulk.)

But the implementation of hulk is underwhelming. His match damage is solid, and getting 2:1 match damage on the ai is a nice trick. Unfortunately, Hulk doesn't gain ap, and he is as dumb as the ai, so he always takes long line matches, and is generally dumb as a brick. That means that instead of just 2:1 match damage, the player also sacrifices a lot of ability to control the board, or set up future moves, as well a lot of red/green/purple AP that Hulk will match away. his animation every turn also adds time to each match.

Not all of these problems are terrible in a vacuum, but in a game that rewards speedy victory as much as mpq, all these little factors eat away at banner's value. He is a decent defensive character in a game that doesn't care about defense. Just like Carnage.

(I do find his transformation mechanics fun to play though!)

Hyposphere6234

I know I'm still trying to max out my 3*s and that it will be probably another two years before my next Banner cover. I just can't help find amusement in people complaining about an unpredictable character who reacts out of anger by making a snap decision match (Yes, AI) that benefits him at the time, instead of sitting back for a couple of minutes to consider what would be more viable for the player after he's taken his turn.

Vhailorx

I hope I don't come across as complaining. I like the philosophy behind banner's design and find him quite fun to play (not everyone can be the best).

But complaining isn't the same thing as analyzing a design and why it doesnt work in the current meta. And banner is flawed if you care about high level play.

(also, my own testing is based on a 2/0/1 hulk, so I too don't expect to have him maxed any time soon!)

notamutant

Hyposphere6234 wrote:

I know I'm still trying to max out my 3*s and that it will be probably another two years before my next Banner cover. I just can't help find amusement in people complaining about an unpredictable character who reacts out of anger by making a snap decision match (Yes, AI) that benefits him at the time, instead of sitting back for a couple of minutes to consider what would be more viable for the player after he's taken his turn.

Focusing solely on the thematic element of the Hulk, which does vary from version to version of the Hulk of course, you are potentially off here. The Hulk is not just some angry monster that doesn't calculate every action he takes in incredible detail. The first time this was ever fully elaborated was by Cho during the World War Hulk comic run. In it, Cho confronted the Hulk when he was on a rampage, and while the Hulk claimed that he was going to make everyone pay for what they did to him, Cho told him that Banner was still inside him, calculating every move in advance, which is why no one died despite the dozens of buildings that the Hulk took down, along with helicopters. There is a genius level intellect operating behind the outward anger of the Hulk, making him a far superior tactician than is expressed in some other versions of the Hulk. It is hard to tell exactly which version of the Hulk they were hoping to create here, but it is possible that the Hulk can plan out in advance, and not waste 4 matches thematically.

Blahahah

notamutant wrote:

Focusing solely on the thematic element of the Hulk, which does vary from version to version of the Hulk of course, you are potentially off here. The Hulk is not just some angry monster that doesn't calculate every action he takes in incredible detail. The first time this was ever fully elaborated was by Cho during the World War Hulk comic run. In it, Cho confronted the Hulk when he was on a rampage, and while the Hulk claimed that he was going to make everyone pay for what they did to him, Cho told him that Banner was still inside him, calculating every move in advance, which is why no one died despite the dozens of buildings that the Hulk took down, along with helicopters. There is a genius level intellect operating behind the outward anger of the Hulk, making him a far superior tactician than is expressed in some other versions of the Hulk. It is hard to tell exactly which version of the Hulk they were hoping to create here, but it is possible that the Hulk can plan out in advance, and not waste 4 matches thematically.

This is further elaborated on in several comic appearances in which the Hulk isn't just incredibly strong but fiercely intelligent. Professor Hulk being one, while Planet Hulk showed his tactical and political genius. The Hulk in that comic (the eventual debate nightmare that become World War Hulk) was intelligent enough to not only rebuild a starcraft that had been detonated in a massive quasi-nuclear explosion, but also pilot it to Antiion to confront Black Bolt and then back to Earth despite being unconscious for most of the trip out and the navigation systems being faulty. Keep in mind that Banner is regarded as one of the top minds in Marvel, to the point where if you were to make a top 5 list it would be almost impossible not to include him in it. Even retaining a minute fraction of that genius level intellect would make someone on a decent tier of intelligence.

In regards to 5* hulk, in a lot of ways this intelligence is made evident. After all, even though his ability is named "Grrrragh" or something to that effect, it still does something no other effect does, being that it allows you a second match. While not always optimal, his huge damage potential coupled with his constantly regenerating health pool means that this extra punch provides huge advantages. To put it in reference to the quote I put above, imagine yourself as the mind of Banner. While the Hulk is smashing away, you are taking precautions to ensure that his destruction is optimized. In this way, Hulk is both absurdly strong and smart.

Sky7331

Something must have happened when you guys patched Amadeus Cho (4* Hulk). He is not the same person as Bruce Banner, and a 3 HULK team should be possible, ie.:

Red Hulk (Thunderbolt Ross) 4*.
Bruce Banner 5* or Hulk 3*
Amadeus Cho 4*.

Please fix this!

Quebbster

Sky7331 wrote:

Something must have happened when you guys patched Amadeus Cho (4* Hulk). He is not the same person as Bruce Banner, and a 3 HULK team should be possible, ie.:

Red Hulk (Thunderbolt Ross) 4*.
Bruce Banner 5* or Hulk 3*
Amadeus Cho 4*.

Please fix this!

This was confirmed as intentional when TAHulk was released. Apparently Cho drained the gamma radiation out of Banner and used it on himself, so when Cho has Hulk Powers Banner does not.
You could Always play She-Hulk for a third gamma champion though.

Sky7331

Is that how the comic goes?

cyineedsn

Sky7331 wrote:

Is that how the comic goes?

Yep, it was the official explanation as to how cho became the hulk, and how banner became de-powered.

Cthulhu

Updated to include the revisions made recently. let me know if I missed anything!

Cthulhu

monsieurmojo

Wait a second...there was a Banner Hulk revision? Is it just Smash damage, or am I missing something?

escart85

Hey,

I didn't have time to read through the whole topic, but I wanted to ask. If I understand correctly, you need the purple cover to be able to use the green and red powers in hulk form. I finally read the description on those and got pwned when fighting him in Hulk form. I managed to down him and he got back as Banner in full health. Is this the intended behavior???

monsieurmojo

Yes it is.

Once he gets above the green threshold, Banner places a countdown that turns him into Hulk. Once he turns into Hulk, if he's downed, he returns to Banner form with the same amount of health as when he transformed. If he maintained the green bank, he'll just put the countdown tile right back down, and turn back into Hulk in a couple of turns.

Hendross

Cthulhu wrote:

Updated to include the revisions made recently. let me know if I missed anything!

Cthulhu

What revisions do you speak of?

iron-n-wine

Unless I am mistaken - they have upped his base damage for the Green, as I'm sure this used to be about 1100 damage, and now is 2093

Smash - 9 AP
The Hulk is ANGRY! SMASH! Hulk deals 2093 damage to the enemy team.

monsieurmojo

iron-n-wine wrote:

Unless I am mistaken - they have upped his base damage for the Green, as I'm sure this used to be about 1100 damage, and now is 2093

Smash - 9 AP
The Hulk is ANGRY! SMASH! Hulk deals 2093 damage to the enemy team.

That's definitely what the description says, but in the wild, there's been no evidence of this:



1/4/2 level 255, and Cthulu's post was ten days ago.

iron-n-wine

Interesting - I didnt have access to MPQ to check if my Banner was showing the updated damage!

Mr_Sinister

He's useless as banner and more uselesss as hulk. He needs fixing because I think he replaced cap as the worst 5*. Please rework him because the concept you've created is awesome and I want to like him. As is he is garbage tier.

Vhailorx

Mr_Sinister wrote:

He's useless as banner and more uselesss as hulk. He needs fixing because I think he replaced cap as the worst 5*. Please rework him because the concept you've created is awesome and I want to like him. As is he is garbage tier.

I am not sure he is worse than cap. Cap's blue is very hard to maximize. His red is no better than hulk's green, and his yellow is useless. At least banner has theoretically infinite health.

But they do seem to be two standouts at the bottom of the 5* tier. 5bw looks weak to me on paper (though some 5* whales seem to like her) but not as bad as these two.