**** Peggy Carter (Captain America) ****

Vhailorx

PeterGibbons316 wrote:

That's the point though, once you have usable 5*s EVERY 4* is basically just dead roster weight outside of special events. Peggy seems potentially game breaking to the 3*/4* meta, but IMO likely still irrelevant in the 5* game.

Agreed completely (an extra 4ap doesn't mean all that much when you have 4x the health and 3* the match damage). but also an entirely different question than what I thought we were discussing (i.e. the power level of Peggy relative to the existing 4* pool).

wymtime

I will say this again Peggy is the Hood of 4* world. When it was all about 3* Hood was crazy strong because of his passive AP steal. So you remember Hood/Sentry combo? Hood Xforce after that? When Peggy buffed and has good health you bring your own Peggy to even the odds. This way you don't have to use boosts. You use a 5* to match damage her down to below 30% then use you powers. This is the same strategy against Hood kill him with 4* match damage or a cheep attack tile like IF then kill everyone else.

She will be a great transition character since she will keep the enemies from firing powers but for the 4-5* player she is now part of the irrelivent 9

Bowgentle

wymtime wrote:

I will say this again Peggy is the Hood of 4* world. When it was all about 3* Hood was crazy strong because of his passive AP steal. So you remember Hood/Sentry combo?

Hood was there for his black, his AP steal was a side effect.

Polares

Vhailorx wrote:

Polares wrote:

BlackSheep101 wrote:

News Flash: good 4* champions are a pain to fight when boosted! Film at 11!

I don't know how to answer to this, because I don't even agree with your satirical statement! As long as I already have the weekly buffed char there is no problem in fighting any other buffed 4. Fighting buffed Jean? No problem as long as I also have a buffed jean. Fighting a buffed Cyclops? The same. Fighting a buffed Peggy? No thank you, not even with my own buffed Peggy. If I can find another 50+ node I will prefer not to fight her. This is the big difference!

If you don't think it is going to be much painful to fight against Peggy than fighting against Cyclops, Jean, IMHB or Rhulk, etc. then I guess there is no point arguing more with you, we just have different opinions. For me, fighting Penny is going to be much more painful than fighting any other 4 with the exception of Iceman maybe (or some other teams like thing+xpool designed to be annoying).

Passives are really strong in this game and Peggy's yellow is one of the best! Probably the strongest one in 4 land.

We are going TO LOVE fighting her in the next Gauntlet. I see devs using the Peggy + thing + xpool team in a node.

This might be going a bit too far. She seems very strong relative to the existing 4* play space, but I don't think she will break the game. Her introduction is a much smaller change to the meta that SS was last september. And while we all seem to agree that 5*s introduced many problems to the game, we are all also still playing the game and posting on these forums 9 months later. It's hard to claim that 5*s broke anything.

And for another example of character release hyperbole, go look at the carnage thread. I started out thinking carnage was a disaster, and then by the time he was actually released I had dropped that down to: either (1) he is a pay-to-win disaster because hid read trashes everything for the mere price of health packs, or (2) he has no acceleration, so it his red is too slow to be insta-win, making him just not good enough to be top tier or have a huge effect on the meta besides being an annoying opponent to throw out on PVP defense.

And I think it's pretty clear that my case #2 turned out to be right. Peggy may turn out to be the same. Her passive will be incredibly annoying to fight. And she will definitely be the center-piece of some truly evil Gauntlet and Simulator nodes. But if she's not fast, then she won't be a premier PVP option (using her will slow the AI team down by 2-4 rounds, which is great! But do i really care when I could build a team around GG or IM46 and do 24k damage for 8 AP?).

I din't say she is going to break the game or anything like that, 5s already did

No seriously, she is not super good in ofense, this is what is not making her essential in 4 land, she is just good. But soon (two or three months ) A LOT of people will start using her as the third leg in Sim (for me she is the new Hood, but with more life and ofense abilities), and it is going to be very annoying having to fight her all the time to get to 2k :S

Also Carnage was a very different problem. Carnage was more about his very cheap red in defense, because it didn't matter that it damaged your own team when played by the AI, but the AI still needed to get the AP. Peggy's yellow is a passive, you don't need to do anything, first turn and it is working. If the ability was a countdown/trap/whatever ala Starlord everything would be perfectly fine, but being a passive the only solution is stunning her and that limits a lot the counters you have for her (basically iceman, because while is airbone you can't keep damaging her which makes Nova a counter not as good). Devs need to be specially careful with passives (in 3 land IF and Luke almost made useless all other attack and shield creators!)

I don't know, I might be exaggerating a little, it is obvious it is not going to break the meta now that 5s exist, but I still think this ability as is too OP

BlackSheep101

Using her in shield sim means I care even less about the time it takes to win. I'm not shield hopping my way to 2000.

I like her a lot, and feel like the were aggressive in her design to make her both desirable and easy to use. She may not matter if you're rocking two 5*s, but she's instantly a very good 4*. Very nice artwork is appreciated, too. She's a terrific addition to the game.

CrookedKnight

Bowgentle wrote:

wymtime wrote:

I will say this again Peggy is the Hood of 4* world. When it was all about 3* Hood was crazy strong because of his passive AP steal. So you remember Hood/Sentry combo?

Hood was there for his black, his AP steal was a side effect.

Nah, Hood was still widely used for Dormammu's Aid long after Sentry got nerfed.

BlackSheep101

Pretty sure he knows how to use Hood, and I'm pretty sure he was commenting specifically about Hood/Sentry.

Blahahah

I mean when you look at her, she seems to promote a slower game for the opponent.
Toss in some Winter Soldier and you have a dangerous set indeed. He can steal any AP that becomes a threat to actually getting an ability off or use it to fuel into her blue (4 free blue AP? Yes please), and his red is actually decently good considering her kit and all having a pretty meh red.

wymtime

BlackSheep101 wrote:

Pretty sure he knows how to use Hood, and I'm pretty sure he was commenting specifically about Hood/Sentry.

With Sentry yes it was his black, but overall Hood was used defensively for his blue. If you attacked Hood you needed to bring you Hood with with you or he would steal all your HP. This was specifically before the health boost

Polares

I was just checking blue damage numbers and they look completely broken.

How is it possible that each countdown doubles strength from 3 to 4, and more than double from 4 to 5. From 3 to 5 they are 5 times stronger, and even worse, from 1 to 5 they are 27 times stronger !?!?!?!?!?! How is that possible !??!?! I don't remember any other power that scales 27 times from going to 1 to 5. This looks seriously broken...

It usually is 5 to 7 times stronger going from 1 to 5, not 27 !!!!

Koffitok

Polares wrote:

I was just checking blue damage numbers and they look completely broken.

How is it possible that each countdown doubles strength from 3 to 4, and more than double from 4 to 5. From 3 to 5 they are 5 times stronger, and even worse, from 1 to 5 they are 27 times stronger !?!?!?!?!?! How is that possible !??!?! I don't remember any other power that scales 27 times from going to 1 to 5. This looks seriously broken...

It usually is 5 to 7 times stronger going from 1 to 5, not 27 !!!!

it's likely due to the stuns. Since stuns don't scale with levels (they're equally powerful from level 70 to 270), they take up what otherwise would be a lot of damage.

And since it's 2 enemy 3-turn stuns that don't change with covers, I'm guessing at lower levels almost all of the ability's damage is in the form of stuns.

So it's probably not that level 5 is scaled too powerful, but levels 1-2 are underpowered because of the bonkers stuns.

I'll bet that if level one had a 1 turn stun instead of 3, the CD damage would have been a lot higher and the lv1-5 differential wouldn't look so skewed.

Colognoisseur

I've had Peggy champed for 48 hours now and have been using her exclusively for everything in MPQ for that time. I have been experimenting with 535 and 355 to try and determine whether it was better to have more red or yellow. In my mind five blue is an automatic five.
What I found was the increase in the enemy needed +3 versus +4 from three to five covers is huge.
I played the same hard nodes in DPvMPQ alternating between 535 and 355. I took way more damage from 535 and hardly any at all from 355. That single little AP means one more turn that poawer can't be fired and one more turn you have to remove a threat.
I am definitely convinced 355 is the best build.

Quebbster

Colognoisseur wrote:

I've had Peggy champed for 48 hours now and have been using her exclusively for everything in MPQ for that time. I have been experimenting with 535 and 355 to try and determine whether it was better to have more red or yellow. In my mind five blue is an automatic five.
What I found was the increase in the enemy needed +3 versus +4 from three to five covers is huge.
I played the same hard nodes in DPvMPQ alternating between 535 and 355. I took way more damage from 535 and hardly any at all from 355. That single little AP means one more turn that poawer can't be fired and one more turn you have to remove a threat.
I am definitely convinced 355 is the best build.

Glad to see you haven't lost your touch.

Oldboy

Anyone knows when she'll be added to the LTs?

Lacydog69

Oldboy wrote:

Anyone knows when she'll be added to the LTs?

Most likely next season. New heroes usually arent added until the season ends.

We_are_Venom

Colognoisseur wrote:

I've had Peggy champed for 48 hours now and have been using her exclusively for everything in MPQ for that time. I have been experimenting with 535 and 355 to try and determine whether it was better to have more red or yellow. In my mind five blue is an automatic five.
What I found was the increase in the enemy needed +3 versus +4 from three to five covers is huge.
I played the same hard nodes in DPvMPQ alternating between 535 and 355. I took way more damage from 535 and hardly any at all from 355. That single little AP means one more turn that poawer can't be fired and one more turn you have to remove a threat.
I am definitely convinced 355 is the best build.

Just curious, but how did you get her champed that fast? How do people do this?

fmftint

Colognoisseur wrote:

I've had Peggy champed for 48 hours now and have been using her exclusively for everything in MPQ for that time. I have been experimenting with 535 and 355 to try and determine whether it was better to have more red or yellow. In my mind five blue is an automatic five.
What I found was the increase in the enemy needed +3 versus +4 from three to five covers is huge.
I played the same hard nodes in DPvMPQ alternating between 535 and 355. I took way more damage from 535 and hardly any at all from 355. That single little AP means one more turn that poawer can't be fired and one more turn you have to remove a threat.
I am definitely convinced 355 is the best build.

My questions are, who are you using with her?
And do you think slowing the AI is more beneficial than self acceleration?

I suppose for PVE you could pair her with IM40 and have both self accelerate and slow the AI

Polares

Koffitok wrote:

Polares wrote:

I was just checking blue damage numbers and they look completely broken.

How is it possible that each countdown doubles strength from 3 to 4, and more than double from 4 to 5. From 3 to 5 they are 5 times stronger, and even worse, from 1 to 5 they are 27 times stronger !?!?!?!?!?! How is that possible !??!?! I don't remember any other power that scales 27 times from going to 1 to 5. This looks seriously broken...

It usually is 5 to 7 times stronger going from 1 to 5, not 27 !!!!

it's likely due to the stuns. Since stuns don't scale with levels (they're equally powerful from level 70 to 270), they take up what otherwise would be a lot of damage.

And since it's 2 enemy 3-turn stuns that don't change with covers, I'm guessing at lower levels almost all of the ability's damage is in the form of stuns.

So it's probably not that level 5 is scaled too powerful, but levels 1-2 are underpowered because of the bonkers stuns.

I'll bet that if level one had a 1 turn stun instead of 3, the CD damage would have been a lot higher and the lv1-5 differential wouldn't look so skewed.

Yeah it should be because of the stuns but I don't think the different levels were correctly designed for this ability. As is, there is basically no real improvement between 1 and 3 covers, it is basically the same. The big improvements come with 4 and 5 covers.

They should have raised base damage and start with 1-2 turn stun or something like that and raise the number of turns at 2 and 4 covers, or do something similar to Iceman blue.

I can also confirm that it adds 3 countdowns. Devs really need to be more consistent with their terminology, I think they should change the text to "for every team member still alive" and remove the "for each ally".

Colognoisseur wrote:

I've had Peggy champed for 48 hours now and have been using her exclusively for everything in MPQ for that time. I have been experimenting with 535 and 355 to try and determine whether it was better to have more red or yellow. In my mind five blue is an automatic five.
What I found was the increase in the enemy needed +3 versus +4 from three to five covers is huge.
I played the same hard nodes in DPvMPQ alternating between 535 and 355. I took way more damage from 535 and hardly any at all from 355. That single little AP means one more turn that poawer can't be fired and one more turn you have to remove a threat.
I am definitely convinced 355 is the best build.

I like red a lot so I thought 5/3/5 would be the better build, but this extra +1 you get at 5 yellow is quite big, so I guess you are right. And between 6k and maybe 15k damage I guess blue makes more sense, considering that two of the chars that can match those tiles will be stunned. Blue is also a color not as packed with very good attacks (well lately it is a bit better, but red still has superior attacks) so 3/5/5 it is then.

OneLastGambit

After spending the morning climbing in Peggy PvP I've had my own observations on facing Peggy rather than observations on using her.

1. Matches tend to be reduced to match damage and passive powers as Peggy delays abilities to the point that they don't get used - even accelerating powers like fist im40 and hb don't fire. I literally climbed from 0 -1k earlier in one sitting seeing only fist pink fires one time and no others.

2. The blue is far more valuable for the stun than the damage - I've seen Peggy use it countless times and I can reliably match away nearly all the CD tiles no problem at all (unless paired with gg I can't see this damage being used often) but that stun is very frustrating against and incredibly useful for. Before using just target the weakest opponent and then you're golden for 3 turns.

3. Peggy is not OP - the yellow is a bit annoying and slows the games down but can easily bypassed by a 5* (obviously) and/or passive abilities so people like daken, fist, oml, blade etc all work well against her by passively boosting the one thing she doesn't negate -match damage. For this reason I don't think she is op. I think the only reason people think she is OP is because they are very reliant on accelerators (switch/fist/im40) and so struggle when they can't. For people like me who are not reliant on this Peggy is just annoying rather than gamebreaking...just like hood.

EDIT: I would also say that 5/5/3 is my favoured build just because instant damage For a relatively low cost is better than possible (and unlikely) damage in 3 turns and blue most useful aspect (stun) is present at all levels

Vhailorx

OneLastGambit:

Thanks for the commentary! I do, however, have one quibble with your position. You suggest that Peggy only seems OP to those who rely upon ap-acceleration. That's probably true. 5* match damage will burn down Peggy pretty fast, just like any other 4*. But I think your statement overlooks the reason that so many players are reliant upon ap-acceleration: it's the only reliable way to hit above one's own roster strength in this game. Mpq is built in such a way that speedy offense is always the best tactic, and players that don't get extraordinarily lucky or spend thousands of dollars will always be fighting stronger opponents in pve and PvP.

So while Peggy will *only* be a substantial shift in the meta for teams that need accelerators like if and im40, I would argue that that's a really significant change given the number of players it will affect. Peggy will eventually be a significant obstacle for 3* players and early 4* transitioners looking to build out their 4* bench. That's a much bigger portion of the player base than the 1% with full 5*s who can just burn her down.