*** The Hood (Classic) ***

Phaserhawk

People, sometimes you have to read between the lines. Twin Pistols was nerfed for three reasons.

1. X-Force
2. 4* Thor
3. Future charged tile characters

The AP was removed for reasons 2 and 3 and the end turn was added because of #1.

Would you rather have them nerf X-Force or Hood? Sentry was for the most part handled fairly. My biggest issue with him was the nerf to Sacrifice, I thought that was a bit uncalled for the same for Supernova, I understand nerfing the lvl 3 and lvl 4 parts but they should have left lvl 5 alone. World Rupture is actually pretty decent except they needed to buff the tile damage more than they did, short of that, Sentry can still do what he does, just slower.

Now if you have your Hood 3/5/5 you got a buff, except the AP removal, for the 5/5/3's out there, look at it this way.

X-Force, followed by Surgical Strike into yellow followed by Twin Pistols in the two top corners for 5.7K damge, your turn ends but it doesn't matter because the game is over.

Unknown

KevinMark wrote:

Playtester A: My Hood just died. I dunno what's happening but it's really exciting and fun. It's also different. I didn't even read the ability description.

Playtester B: Did you use Beast's blue skill? It makes matches for free and doesn't end your turn.

Playtester A: Whoa dude! That sounds cool. Totally a fun and useful ability.

They probably start playing testing with 30 AP all so Dormammu's Aid doesn't seem like it's very useful at all.

mouser

Demiurge_Will wrote:

KevinMark wrote:

Demiurge_Will wrote:

We playtested both versions, and making TP continue to end the turn at level 5 was easier to understand, the added damage led to more exciting moments, and the turn ending kept it feeling different from other abilities. It comes down to people who played the version of the ability we went with having more fun.

I don't quite get what is meant by the bold part. Getting the 5th cover of any 3* character ability you like is a great milestone. It's an achievement. I think it would be pretty shortsighted to think that people don't read what the 5th cover does before they are upgrading/respeccing. I'm sorry but I also don't buy the rest of the explanation.

You'd think people would read the 5th cover description, wouldn't you? But time and time again, playtesting shows that anything that's in text, a meaningful percentage of people miss. It's not what I think or predict should be the case (my instinct is usually that people will read more than they prove to do), but it's what I observe, in every game I work on. Sometimes it's worth changing up how things work anyway - like we decided to in the previous version of the ability, and like we do with many other abilities in the game - but the additional confusion is a piece of the puzzle.

If making major changes with a 5th cover was distressing the playtesters, did you have them playtest an alternate version of Hood yellow that doesn't end the turn on any cover count to eliminate the confusion?

I have to believe the original design of Hood imposed the ends turn penalty to offset a powerful (albeit expensive) ability to gain AP. Remove the foundational rationale for that limitation and it seems to me the better design choice would be to remove the penalty as well, then determine an appropriate amount of damage for the ability.

Lidolas

KevinMark wrote:

GuntherBlobel wrote:

KevinMark wrote:

Remove the end turn from 5 yellow covers. Btw, if anyone didn't realize, even if you got a 5-match during the cascade your turn still ends.

Are you sure that is true? I seem to remember getting a random crit after Supernova. It had a weird buggy effect, where I was given the opportunity to use another power, but then the turn moved on, iirc.

I'm sure. I had this happen when I had 4 yellow Hood covers and it was just recently. It force-ends your turn.

I can second that observation. I got a lucky cascade and got 2 x5 matches after using my TP with 4 covers. No extra turn.

Unknown

mouser wrote:

Demiurge_Will wrote:

KevinMark wrote:

Demiurge_Will wrote:

We playtested both versions, and making TP continue to end the turn at level 5 was easier to understand, the added damage led to more exciting moments, and the turn ending kept it feeling different from other abilities. It comes down to people who played the version of the ability we went with having more fun.

I don't quite get what is meant by the bold part. Getting the 5th cover of any 3* character ability you like is a great milestone. It's an achievement. I think it would be pretty shortsighted to think that people don't read what the 5th cover does before they are upgrading/respeccing. I'm sorry but I also don't buy the rest of the explanation.

You'd think people would read the 5th cover description, wouldn't you? But time and time again, playtesting shows that anything that's in text, a meaningful percentage of people miss. It's not what I think or predict should be the case (my instinct is usually that people will read more than they prove to do), but it's what I observe, in every game I work on. Sometimes it's worth changing up how things work anyway - like we decided to in the previous version of the ability, and like we do with many other abilities in the game - but the additional confusion is a piece of the puzzle.

If making major changes with a 5th cover was distressing the playtesters, did you have them playtest an alternate version of Hood yellow that doesn't end the turn on any cover count to eliminate the confusion?

I have to believe the original design of Hood imposed the ends turn penalty to offset a powerful (albeit expensive) ability to gain AP. Remove the foundational rationale for that limitation and it seems to me the better design choice would be to remove the penalty as well, then determine an appropriate amount of damage for the ability.

As much as I think the new yellow is badly designed, I think it's better than "instant speed Iron Hammer that costs 15 AP" which is what it would have ended up being if it was lower damage and not end the turn

Pylgrim

Demiurge_Will wrote:

KevinMark wrote:

Demiurge_Will wrote:

We playtested both versions, and making TP continue to end the turn at level 5 was easier to understand, the added damage led to more exciting moments, and the turn ending kept it feeling different from other abilities. It comes down to people who played the version of the ability we went with having more fun.

I don't quite get what is meant by the bold part. Getting the 5th cover of any 3* character ability you like is a great milestone. It's an achievement. I think it would be pretty shortsighted to think that people don't read what the 5th cover does before they are upgrading/respeccing. I'm sorry but I also don't buy the rest of the explanation.

You'd think people would read the 5th cover description, wouldn't you? But time and time again, playtesting shows that anything that's in text, a meaningful percentage of people miss. It's not what I think or predict should be the case (my instinct is usually that people will read more than they prove to do), but it's what I observe, in every game I work on. Sometimes it's worth changing up how things work anyway - like we decided to in the previous version of the ability, and like we do with many other abilities in the game - but the additional confusion is a piece of the puzzle.

This is the first time ever I disagree with something you've said, Will. I understand the desire to keep complexity down for new users, but something like a small change in a 5th cover is transparent to new users. Sure enough, when I was a novice myself, I didn't notice that the 5th cover didn't end the turn. But after playing for a while, finding it out was a delight and changed the way I played. (Indeed, I just recently respecced him from 5 black covers to 5 yellow.)

This is something Mark Rosewater calls "lenticular design", because it changes the way it seems to you depending on your perspective, adding depth to the game. That way you have deceptively low levels of complexity for the new players and stuff for the veterans to find and keep them coming back for more.

I entirely understand the reasoning to change Hood's ability, but removing that little feature /just/ to streamline design is unacceptable. In fact, if streamlining is your goal, I don't see why an expensive, low AP-to-damage ratio ability as the redesigned ability should end the turn even at one cover. You surely are aware that this leaves a character in the lowest HP range in front to take full damage from a freshly-shuffled board, a harsh and unnecessary drawback for a middle-tier ability.

Unknown

I have read every comment in this thread, and I think there is some great dialog. The Hood has been my favorite character since I started playing, and I am sad to see his power-level altered to suit new content which is not yet even widely available.

That said, my initial reaction to the announcement was VERY negative. I have spent the last few days (and Hood-required PvE nodes) actively considering every time I cast Twin Pistols whether or not I would be better served with more AP or more damage in a given scenario. Using this lens, I actually am coming around to the change -- it's not as bad as the early posters in the thread made out, and it adds some new gameplay.

I do think that the entire ability needs something to keep him off of the front lines. Against human players, he is almost always going to be Target #1. When playing with him against the AI however, I really am not looking forward to ending the turn with him out front. In the comics, he has the ability to turn invisible. Invisible Woman's invisibility tile makes a character untargetable. Would it be possible for him to be untargetable for one turn after using Twin Pistols? Or less powerfully, even just a simple move to the back of the line? Let's be honest, he doesn't seem to be the type of character archetype that jumps out in front and says 'Hit me!'.

Pwuz_

platypusavenger wrote:

I have read every comment in this thread, and I think there is some great dialog. The Hood has been my favorite character since I started playing, and I am sad to see his power-level altered to suit new content which is not yet even widely available.

That said, my initial reaction to the announcement was VERY negative. I have spent the last few days (and Hood-required PvE nodes) actively considering every time I cast Twin Pistols whether or not I would be better served with more AP or more damage in a given scenario. Using this lens, I actually am coming around to the change -- it's not as bad as the early posters in the thread made out, and it adds some new gameplay.

I do think that the entire ability needs something to keep him off of the front lines. Against human players, he is almost always going to be Target #1. When playing with him against the AI however, I really am not looking forward to ending the turn with him out front. In the comics, he has the ability to turn invisible. Invisible Woman's invisibility tile makes a character untargetable. Would it be possible for him to be untargetable for one turn after using Twin Pistols? Or less powerfully, even just a simple move to the back of the line? Let's be honest, he doesn't seem to be the type of character archetype that jumps out in front and says 'Hit me!'.

Oh, I like that a lot! Perhaps dropping a 1 turn countdown tile in the center of one or both of the targeted areas that makes Hood "Invisible" and take only partial damage?

This type of change MAY dictate a small drop in damage though to offset his protection. IF this change was put in place along with the End Turn, it's not like it could be abused except by the opponent using Anti-Gravity Device or Snarky Remark.

Unknown

if they go through with this hood yellow change i think they should also rename it from "twin pistols" to "shoot the top two corners pistols".

mjh

Another example of D3 showing us that their play testing sucks and their inability to listen to their most vocal player base, us. Trying to support ending the turn at level 5 with "it is more fun" is by far the worst thing I have ever heard. Almost as bad as the answers to this round of dev Q&A.

Nobody here would want a change that could be exploited and turn into auto-wins (See Rags, Spidey, Patchneto).

You didn't listen to us when we overwhelmingly called to cancel the Heroic: juggernaut PVE for Mystique, let's see if a change can happen this time.

Unknown

Pwuz_ wrote:

platypusavenger wrote:

I have read every comment in this thread, and I think there is some great dialog. The Hood has been my favorite character since I started playing, and I am sad to see his power-level altered to suit new content which is not yet even widely available.

That said, my initial reaction to the announcement was VERY negative. I have spent the last few days (and Hood-required PvE nodes) actively considering every time I cast Twin Pistols whether or not I would be better served with more AP or more damage in a given scenario. Using this lens, I actually am coming around to the change -- it's not as bad as the early posters in the thread made out, and it adds some new gameplay.

I do think that the entire ability needs something to keep him off of the front lines. Against human players, he is almost always going to be Target #1. When playing with him against the AI however, I really am not looking forward to ending the turn with him out front. In the comics, he has the ability to turn invisible. Invisible Woman's invisibility tile makes a character untargetable. Would it be possible for him to be untargetable for one turn after using Twin Pistols? Or less powerfully, even just a simple move to the back of the line? Let's be honest, he doesn't seem to be the type of character archetype that jumps out in front and says 'Hit me!'.

Oh, I like that a lot! Perhaps dropping a 1 turn countdown tile in the center of one or both of the targeted areas that makes Hood "Invisible" and take only partial damage?

This type of change MAY dictate a small drop in damage though to offset his protection. IF this change was put in place along with the End Turn, it's not like it could be abused except by the opponent using Anti-Gravity Device or Snarky Remark.

The ability could send him to the back, instead of the front, when used. There is some precedent for this somewhere, I just can't recall who right now. Plus IW invisibility. So it can't be THAT hard to not have him in front to take a beating after using his ability. Pistols are range right? Leave the meathead in front and shoot around him.

Unknown

Somehow combine the ability with Mawkeye's old Avoid skill?

Unknown

I really don't see what's all this talk about how The Hood has to tank on the turn he makes Twin Pistols. Don't do that if they're about to use a big move but other than that it's no different than making a yellow/blue match as he's almost certain to own those colors if you're not running Black Panther or the featured character has higher strength in the current metagame.

I can see Dormammu's Aid doing less and passively reduce damage taken by AP consuming damage by 10/20/30/40/50%. That'd give him about 10K HP versus AP consuming moves, though he'd still be vulnerable to match damage/attack tiles. Or tie the ability to Intimidation if we want slightly more interesting choices (hard to see Dormammu's AId not maxed unless it's weakened to the point of uselessness).

Spoit

Phantron wrote:

I really don't see what's all this talk about how The Hood has to tank on the turn he makes Twin Pistols. Don't do that if they're about to use a big move but other than that it's no different than making a yellow/blue match as he's almost certain to own those colors if you're not running Black Panther or the featured character has higher strength in the current metagame.

I can see Dormammu's Aid doing less and passively reduce damage taken by AP consuming damage by 10/20/30/40/50%. That'd give him about 10K HP versus AP consuming moves, though he'd still be vulnerable to match damage/attack tiles. Or tie the ability to Intimidation if we want slightly more interesting choices (hard to see Dormammu's AId not maxed unless it's weakened to the point of uselessness).

See the thing is, if you up the tiles to steal by even 1, that pretty much is to the point of uselessness, given how tend to accumulate

And the difference is that it puts him in front, and sets up the board for the AI to almost certainly make a cascade if you do anything other then the top corner

Unknown

Spoit wrote:

Phantron wrote:

I really don't see what's all this talk about how The Hood has to tank on the turn he makes Twin Pistols. Don't do that if they're about to use a big move but other than that it's no different than making a yellow/blue match as he's almost certain to own those colors if you're not running Black Panther or the featured character has higher strength in the current metagame.

I can see Dormammu's Aid doing less and passively reduce damage taken by AP consuming damage by 10/20/30/40/50%. That'd give him about 10K HP versus AP consuming moves, though he'd still be vulnerable to match damage/attack tiles. Or tie the ability to Intimidation if we want slightly more interesting choices (hard to see Dormammu's AId not maxed unless it's weakened to the point of uselessness).

See the thing is, if you up the tiles to steal by even 1, that pretty much is to the point of uselessness, given how tend to accumulate

And the difference is that it puts him in front, and sets up the board for the AI to almost certainly make a cascade if you do anything other then the top corner

Dormammu's Aid is a chicken and the egg problem. The Hood can die at 100% health to an X Force sometimes, and Fireball will usually be enough to knock him out (3700 damage and easy to accumulate the rest you need from match damage while collecting red), so currently Dormammu's Aid is broken enough to prevent this from happening on a regular basis, because if he regularly dies to a single Fireball he'd obviously suck. Therefore Dormammu's Aid needs to broken enough to prevent The Hood from being useless, but then this makes him broken. He really needs way more HP because you indeed can't nerf him in any significant amount or he'd just be some guy that dies to a 3 match move and will never be used. The 'lower than standard' HP class character (GSBW tier and The Hood tier) just aren't played very much unless they do something incredibly broken because otherwise you can't justify having a guy that have a hard time surviving even a single move.

Since TP no longer generates AP I see why you wouldn't just shoot the top corners unless you saw a spot you can shoot TP that cascade into a match 5 (in that case you'd get your turn back) in most cases. If you need to get rid of a nasty special tile that looks like an appropriate tradeoff to put The Hood in front.

Unknown

Pwuz_ wrote:

platypusavenger wrote:

I have read every comment in this thread, and I think there is some great dialog. The Hood has been my favorite character since I started playing, and I am sad to see his power-level altered to suit new content which is not yet even widely available.

That said, my initial reaction to the announcement was VERY negative. I have spent the last few days (and Hood-required PvE nodes) actively considering every time I cast Twin Pistols whether or not I would be better served with more AP or more damage in a given scenario. Using this lens, I actually am coming around to the change -- it's not as bad as the early posters in the thread made out, and it adds some new gameplay.

I do think that the entire ability needs something to keep him off of the front lines. Against human players, he is almost always going to be Target #1. When playing with him against the AI however, I really am not looking forward to ending the turn with him out front. In the comics, he has the ability to turn invisible. Invisible Woman's invisibility tile makes a character untargetable. Would it be possible for him to be untargetable for one turn after using Twin Pistols? Or less powerfully, even just a simple move to the back of the line? Let's be honest, he doesn't seem to be the type of character archetype that jumps out in front and says 'Hit me!'.

Oh, I like that a lot! Perhaps dropping a 1 turn countdown tile in the center of one or both of the targeted areas that makes Hood "Invisible" and take only partial damage?

This type of change MAY dictate a small drop in damage though to offset his protection. IF this change was put in place along with the End Turn, it's not like it could be abused except by the opponent using Anti-Gravity Device or Snarky Remark.

Pwuz, you're in love with OBW. Admit it

Pwuz_

Phantron wrote:

Since TP no longer generates AP I see why you wouldn't just shoot the top corners unless you saw a spot you can shoot TP that cascade into a match 5 (in that case you'd get your turn back) in most cases. If you need to get rid of a nasty special tile that looks like an appropriate tradeoff to put The Hood in front.

It's been a LONG time since my Hood was less than 5 Yellow, but if I recall correctly, EVEN IF you can manage a match 5 scenario by cascade you DO NOT get your turn back.

It was fairly rare that I could pull that type of move off, but I seem to recall being shocked by that since I had planned out that cascade so carefully.

Unknown

Pwuz_ wrote:

Phantron wrote:

Since TP no longer generates AP I see why you wouldn't just shoot the top corners unless you saw a spot you can shoot TP that cascade into a match 5 (in that case you'd get your turn back) in most cases. If you need to get rid of a nasty special tile that looks like an appropriate tradeoff to put The Hood in front.

It's been a LONG time since my Hood was less than 5 Yellow, but if I recall correctly, EVEN IF you can manage a match 5 scenario by cascade you DO NOT get your turn back.

It was fairly rare that I could pull that type of move off, but I seem to recall being shocked by that since I had planned out that cascade so carefully.

The one good thing is it works against the AI too. Had AI pull 3 cover Twin Pistols on me, giving me a free crit to use.

Unknown

platypusavenger wrote:

I have read every comment in this thread, and I think there is some great dialog. The Hood has been my favorite character since I started playing, and I am sad to see his power-level altered to suit new content which is not yet even widely available.

That said, my initial reaction to the announcement was VERY negative. I have spent the last few days (and Hood-required PvE nodes) actively considering every time I cast Twin Pistols whether or not I would be better served with more AP or more damage in a given scenario. Using this lens, I actually am coming around to the change -- it's not as bad as the early posters in the thread made out, and it adds some new gameplay.

I do think that the entire ability needs something to keep him off of the front lines. Against human players, he is almost always going to be Target #1. When playing with him against the AI however, I really am not looking forward to ending the turn with him out front. In the comics, he has the ability to turn invisible. Invisible Woman's invisibility tile makes a character untargetable. Would it be possible for him to be untargetable for one turn after using Twin Pistols? Or less powerfully, even just a simple move to the back of the line? Let's be honest, he doesn't seem to be the type of character archetype that jumps out in front and says 'Hit me!'.

Invis, or teleporting (ala Marvel Heroes).

My thoughts are take a page from Hawkeyes old book and he jumps (ports) to the back after using the new ability. that would provide the same protection for offence, but he would be targetable on defense.

ZeiramMR

Pwuz_ wrote:

Phantron wrote:

Since TP no longer generates AP I see why you wouldn't just shoot the top corners unless you saw a spot you can shoot TP that cascade into a match 5 (in that case you'd get your turn back) in most cases. If you need to get rid of a nasty special tile that looks like an appropriate tradeoff to put The Hood in front.

It's been a LONG time since my Hood was less than 5 Yellow, but if I recall correctly, EVEN IF you can manage a match 5 scenario by cascade you DO NOT get your turn back.

It was fairly rare that I could pull that type of move off, but I seem to recall being shocked by that since I had planned out that cascade so carefully.

Before I had 5 Yellow, if I did something that generated a Critical Hit tile, it wouldn't end my turn immediately but if I fired off another power it would do so at that point.