*** The Hood (Classic) ***

Unknown

gamar wrote:

jralbino wrote:

You ascribe a lot of thoughts to people that they don't actually write in their posts.

It's what you posted

jralbino wrote:

Let's start with the fact that RIGHT there, in the quote YOU quoted, it says 49% are fine with one or the other. That shows a pretty reasonable attitude to me. Never mind the fact that the majority of people are taking issue with the end turn, not the damage ratio.

In other words, the things you think are "reasonable" are:
1) Twin Pistols gains AP, does 5.7k damage, and ends the turn
or
2) Twin Pistols gains no AP, does 5.7k damage, and does not end the turn

The second of which is... the view I ascribed to the critics:

gamar wrote:

Yes, a lot of people think the "end of turn" was "unnecessarily tacked on" BECAUSE they seriously underestimate how good that damage ratio is on a character like hood.

I think both of those options, which you describe as "reasonable," are way too powerful. I think you underestimate how good they are. Based on what you actually, clearly said in your post.

I could be wrong but I don't actually think anyone is arguing for your first choice (big damage AND AP gain). That would be an buff in anyone's book. On par with Surgical Strike. I think the choice is to keep the AP gain with low damage. The poll is kind of written in shorthand, so maybe that's the problem. I DO think people are arguing for the second choice. My presumption would be that that choice would come with an appropriate decrease in raw power as Will mentioned was actually considered. THAT is what I consider reasonable.

Unknown

Another big mistake from the devs. They usually make huge mistakes when NOT doing something, but now they want to start making unthinkable mistakes by actually doing something!

Dayv

There are so many better options than the one they chose.

Don't end the turn, do less damage (but still more than before).

Make the placement random, don't end the turn, and either have it do good damage *or* generate AP (not both).

Most importantly: don't end the turn!

If you're really set on making it end the turn, make it way cheaper to use. Don't do that though, because turn-ending skills suck.

Unknown

DayvBang wrote:

turul wrote:

So when does magneto2* purple will be nerfed because of 4thor?

All characters will be nerfed to ensure 4* Thor reigns supreme.

ALL CHARACTERS.

No sorry, you dont get it right.

Thor will will be released broken, and they'll force everybody to start playing her because it's the only option.
Then 4 months later they'll suddenly realize that maybe it's a little bit unbalanced, then as a result nerf ragnarok and spiderman because of some uncomprehensible interaction between them.

PS: seriously, Hood is an AP stealer/generator, yellow should continue to generate ap, but end the turn. So you get a big dowside, new board and lose turn, plus its really costly anyway.

ClydeFrog76

Raekwen wrote:

There isn't an option for "I never use this so I couldn't care less."

First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Socialist.
Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

GothicKratos

Demiurge_Will wrote:

You'd think people would read the 5th cover description, wouldn't you? But time and time again, playtesting shows that anything that's in text, a meaningful percentage of people miss. It's not what I think or predict should be the case (my instinct is usually that people will read more than they prove to do), but it's what I observe, in every game I work on. Sometimes it's worth changing up how things work anyway - like we decided to in the previous version of the ability, and like we do with many other abilities in the game - but the additional confusion is a piece of the puzzle.

Having worked previously in helpdesk positions and loads of customer service, this is absolutely accurate. Lots of people laugh at stories of helpdesk reps asking people if they turned their device on...but those situations really happen and more often than you'd think.

Nonce Equitaur 2 wrote:

Demiurge_Will wrote:

I've got an email with a concern about the interaction from the 9th.

That's all good stuff. Would have been better to earlier say "We noticed a possible problem before posting her full stats. We watched to forums to see if players would spot it. They did, so we bumped up the priority."

I have a fair amount of respect for you, but seriously man, who cares? Do you really need a digital pat on the wrist that they got a head's up form the forum goers? You're being overtly aggressive and it really comes off as arrogant/assohole-ish to me. I'd be one thing if you had an idea that was blatantly yours and they lifted it off the forums and put it in-game without any consent or credit....but that's so far from the case it's almost a bad comparison. Furthermore, it's naive and narrow-mindlessly narcissistic to think that forumers told them about anything in-game before any other group of people, especially considered the other major group (i.e. non-forum goers) is much larger in size.

I'll probably get a lot of downvotes for this, but it's fine. Calling a spade a spade.

Unknown

Hate. Hate and rage. Leave Hood alone!

FaustianDeal

jralbino wrote:

Being objective, you're probably aiming to maximize AP generation on the colors you need though, not setting up cascades.

I think this is very accurate. I've been paying more attention to how I fire TP since the nerf was announced - and the uses are almost exclusively in 2 categories: Generating AP to fire powers, and Shooting out enemy special tiles (or some combination of those 2). I was never looking to shoot out part of the board to knowingly trigger a cascade. The number of incidental matches happening as a direct-effect of TP has always seems absurdly low to me.

The move immediately following TP did often have a chance of creating a crit-tile or cascade though; I have vivid memories of leaving those gifts for the AI in the months before I got my 5th yellow.

This does feel a lot like GSBW's pistol now, only with the added detriment of ending my turn. The uses post nerf are going to be heavily restricted to 'end-game' scenarios... I likely won't be firing it off unless I am sure the shots are going to down the imminent-threat target - failure to down them carries to much risk after the nerf.

The Hood changes were not meant to hurt Sentry-bombers (most of whom didn't even realize Hood *had* a yellow power) - I think this change was entirely focused on the other dominant tandem XForce/Hood. There are enough characters out there with yellow as their 'strongest' - and it was just too easy to turn that yellow into another Surgical Strike or XForce by funneling the yellow into a TP.

Unknown

Demiurge_Will wrote:

KevinMark wrote:

Demiurge_Will wrote:

We playtested both versions, and making TP continue to end the turn at level 5 was easier to understand, the added damage led to more exciting moments, and the turn ending kept it feeling different from other abilities. It comes down to people who played the version of the ability we went with having more fun.

I don't quite get what is meant by the bold part. Getting the 5th cover of any 3* character ability you like is a great milestone. It's an achievement. I think it would be pretty shortsighted to think that people don't read what the 5th cover does before they are upgrading/respeccing. I'm sorry but I also don't buy the rest of the explanation.

You'd think people would read the 5th cover description, wouldn't you? But time and time again, playtesting shows that anything that's in text, a meaningful percentage of people miss. It's not what I think or predict should be the case (my instinct is usually that people will read more than they prove to do), but it's what I observe, in every game I work on. Sometimes it's worth changing up how things work anyway - like we decided to in the previous version of the ability, and like we do with many other abilities in the game - but the additional confusion is a piece of the puzzle.

i don't think demiurge or anyone else should cater to the stupid or uninformed. if they don't read what a 5th cover does it should be their loss instead of nerfing a character by adding something like a turn-ending ability and sticking it to those of us who are literate...

Unknown

Ap and damage would be pretty dumb. Even ending the turn.

Unknown

ClydeFrog76 wrote:

Raekwen wrote:

There isn't an option for "I never use this so I couldn't care less."

First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Socialist.
Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

Let's not Godwin this particular issue. I'm not thrilled about the change either, but there's such a thing as hyperbole bordering on offensiveness.

Pwuz_

Gah, so much to read. I really need to quit my job and focus full time on reading this thread.

RefinedBean wrote:

GrumpySmurf1002 wrote:

Gauntlet was September, and Deadpool is more recently than 6 months.

Speaking personally, character design is way more interesting anyway. Another PvE like Deadpool, with the same basic mechanic and different words is nice for about 30 seconds. Then it's just same ol' same ol. (although at least Deadpool's wasn't "lets fight Venom and Ares and OMG STOP IT WITH THESE VILLIANS")

Gauntlet isn't "new," really. It's a fun little idea but it's otherwise just...well, the Gauntlet. There's no story, although I'll grant it DOES give a sense of accomplishment, thankfully. That's more than can be said for most everything else in PVE and a lot of PVP as well.

Pardon me - looks like Deadpool was more like 5 months ago? Maybe less. That was a fun one. I guess since it got repeated so soon due to the anniversary, it lost its luster.

Looks like we're of different opinions on what we find most interesting. Personally, I don't really care about character design - I find discussions like these pretty amusing, but there's only so much something like "This ends the turn now, it didn't before" can hold my interest.

I'd much rather focus on the PVE side of things, and why we haven't seen new content in so long. Why is there a push to churn out as many new 3* characters as possible and not give us anything new to do with them? It just seems...silly.

I've said this in previous threads - there's only so many mechanics that can be added to a Match 3 game. They're teasing us with charged tiles, sure. Those could be significant, given time. But eventually everything, every new character they release, is going to be very same-y. Remember the big bluster about Blade when he was released? Now, no one cares. Same with Mystique. They're vanilla. Countdown timers, stuns, etc. - it's all been done before.

We shouldn't focus on Hood's yellow. We should focus on the fact that the game is perilously riding the edge of boredom. Am I the only one whose interest has been flagging because I've busted my hump for new characters that, in the end, haven't done anything to change the game in an appreciable way? I doubt it.

Blade & Mystique really do open the door to some interesting new PvE events. I'm a little disappointed that for Blade we didn't get some simple 2.5 day event featuring Vampire characters and some really campy new Goons! (Vampire Goon places a red countdown tile, when it goes off does X damage to the target and heals himself for all health drained. Vampire Goon places a Black countdown tile, while the tile is in play his AP generation pauses, his other countdown tiles pause, he can not be targeted for normal match damage, & takes only half damage from specials.)

I don't think we are asking for the next Dicken's Novel, or even the next R.L.Stein. Just something. It's a bunch of superheroes, we expect it to be a little silly!

ClydeFrog76

Ben Grimm wrote:

ClydeFrog76 wrote:

Raekwen wrote:

There isn't an option for "I never use this so I couldn't care less."

First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Socialist.
Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

Let's not Godwin this particular issue. I'm not thrilled about the change either, but there's such a thing as hyperbole bordering on offensiveness.

TTJ

But gags tend to lose something if you have to explain them so I've kinda TPd myself in the foot with this post.

GothicKratos

atlasspeaks wrote:

i don't think demiurge or anyone else should cater to the stupid or uninformed. if they don't read what a 5th cover does it should be their loss instead of nerfing a character by adding something like a turn-ending ability and sticking it to those of us who are literate...

That's all fair and good as a individual, as far as logic perspective goes, but they're a business, and catering to the bottom tier is the best way to make the most effective dollar.

Also, as a small sidenote, I'd like to make a small reassessment to my prior statement in regards to Nonce. As I said before, I hold a lot of respect for you, and you response in your upvote is exactly why. I only wish you'd responded so I could do so in return. I hope I didn't come off too brash myself. May the Hero Points be with you, bud.

Unknown

Demiurge_Will wrote:

KevinMark wrote:

Demiurge_Will wrote:

We playtested both versions, and making TP continue to end the turn at level 5 was easier to understand, the added damage led to more exciting moments, and the turn ending kept it feeling different from other abilities. It comes down to people who played the version of the ability we went with having more fun.

I don't quite get what is meant by the bold part. Getting the 5th cover of any 3* character ability you like is a great milestone. It's an achievement. I think it would be pretty shortsighted to think that people don't read what the 5th cover does before they are upgrading/respeccing. I'm sorry but I also don't buy the rest of the explanation.

You'd think people would read the 5th cover description, wouldn't you? But time and time again, playtesting shows that anything that's in text, a meaningful percentage of people miss. It's not what I think or predict should be the case (my instinct is usually that people will read more than they prove to do), but it's what I observe, in every game I work on. Sometimes it's worth changing up how things work anyway - like we decided to in the previous version of the ability, and like we do with many other abilities in the game - but the additional confusion is a piece of the puzzle.

If the playtesters are not reading the cover descriptions, then how do they know what they are testing? They sound like horrible playtesters. It boggles my mind really. I'm thinking some of the conditions of the testing environment might lead to that kind of testing such as unlimited health packs, covers, HP and Iso-8. I don't claim these are true for the current playtesting. I'm just looking for reasons why people wouldn't be reading the descriptions. Still though if these people are playtesters on some kind of pay, it would make sense for them to do justice to the testing. For the sake of being an honest person. I don't know. It just doesn't sound right to me.

gamar wrote:

jralbino wrote:

gamar wrote:

jralbino wrote:

Here's a meaningful percentage - 96%:
Yes, I'm cool with not gaining AP AND ending the turn - 4%
Yes for covers 1-4, no for cover 5 (variable, cover 5 always keeps the turn) - 30%
No, it should never end the turn because it creates a new board which is unfavourable for the user - 17%
One of the two needs to go: either the no-AP-gain part or the end-the-turn part - 49%

Maybe forum goers aren't representative of your total population, but maybe there's something to what people (the player experts) on here are saying?

The "player experts" on here are complaining because it has a poor damage ratio compared to the total damage of Call the Storm

The "player experts" would be happier if it gained AP, dealt 10,000 damage, and didn't end the turn

Way to make stuff up. Let's start with the fact that RIGHT there, in the quote YOU quoted, it says 49% are fine with one or the other. That shows a pretty reasonable attitude to me. Never mind the fact that the majority of people are taking issue with the end turn, not the damage ratio. SOME are yes, but they are vastly outnumbered by those that are willing to accept a change to accommodate for the charged tile issue, but feel the end turn thing was unnecessarily tacked on. I would REALLY hate to go through the exercise, but if you want to go the route of selectively choosing damage ratio quotes in the thread to make your point, I'm sure I can more than match you with quotes from people that are just wanting removal of this end turn business.

Yes, a lot of people think the "end of turn" was "unnecessarily tacked on" BECAUSE they seriously underestimate how good that damage ratio is on a character like hood. That doesn't exactly debunk my point

The problem is Hood is not a damage dealer. Giving him a subpar damage ability because he was not a damage dealer in the first place is not justified especially if he is going to get whacked instantly after he uses the ability with that squishy health points of his. That will lead to him getting killed more often and/or needing health packs more often. Why is that a good thing?

hurcules

Demiurge_Will wrote:

Nonce Equitaur 2 wrote:

When? [was the interaction between Hood & Charged tiles discovered.]

Just because a peek behind the curtain might be interesting to some folks:

I've got an email with a concern about the interaction from the 9th. The posts on the forums, along with data from the lightning rounds, were useful in confirming that players would notice and estimating how widespread the impact might be - they helped to bump things up in priority. It still wasn't as on fire as other things, since it would be a while before 4* Thor was widely playable.

It took us a while to be confident that the problem was with Twin Pistols. At first we thought the problem was with Charged tiles, or how 4* Thor were using them, and we tried tackling things that way for a while. We'd known for a while that on paper, and in longer matches, Twin Pistols was generating too much AP, but because of its high cost and low use in high-end play, it wasn't a priority to retune it.

After we settled on that direction, there were a number of rounds of paper design, balancing, and testing before we arrived at the change you see here. It wasn't long between when we arrived at the final numbers and when they were posted here.

Probably flogging a dead horse here, but was this information close to being finalised / confident before or even during the PvP that gave out Hood covers? This is not the first time this has happened, as pointed out by HailMary.

Unknown

Playtester A: My Hood just died. I dunno what's happening but it's really exciting and fun. It's also different. I didn't even read the ability description.

Playtester B: Did you use Beast's blue skill? It makes matches for free and doesn't end your turn.

Playtester A: Whoa dude! That sounds cool. Totally a fun and useful ability.

Unknown

Playertester A: Also, I cover maxed my Bag-Man with the HP I won in the game in order to have some advantage.

hurcules

mouser wrote:

I think some folks are overestimating the ability of TP to create cascades. I've looked for opportunities countless times and it's rare to find something more then 2 match 3's you can create--sometimes you can only find a single match 3 as well. Even then they're likely to be in colors you aren't focusing on.

I really don't see any justification for making the ability end the turn if it's no longer going to gain AP from destroyed tiles.

Twin Pistol's cascade ability is on par with Punisher's Judgement and GSBW's Pistols. It does from zero to pitiful cascades when used by players, but OMG 30+ AP cascades when used by AI.

No, I'm totally not bitter about this.

Unknown

Playtester C: I like Hulk! hUlk SMASH! It's like the best move in the game!
I denounce and condemn myself for this joke.