PVE Scaling Feedback & New Test : Prodigal Sun
Comments
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mazerat wrote:udonomefoo wrote:mazerat wrote:This seriously feels like it's just rewarding whoever spends the most time chained to their device rather than roster or skill.
That's how it always has been, it's just amplified now. Scaling makes it not about roster and skill has never been a consideration.
Not sure how you even would test skill in a match 3 game. Increasing the difficulty just makes it more about board luck. Yes, there are basic good moves and bad moves, but beyond that it's all luck.
That's totally fair. I guess I'd just feel better about struggling to beat Hood three times in 24-hours than roflstomping a Black Panther half my level six times. Like one simulates effort?
Well, you can test skill, but people don't always like it. Gauntlets, and the first runs of galactus and ultron both rewarded superior strategies and break compostion (assuming you had a feel roster). Even the 4* ddqs reward superior tactics. There is always a luck component, but knowing which moves to make (how to maximize the value of ap denial etc) does make a noticeable difference.
But people do get frustrated with high difficulty events that require luck + good tactics/strategies to win.
The problem with this new pve system is that the bottom line change is demiurge asking players to do more grinding on harder nodes for exactly the same rewards. That's just a terrible deal for players. But apparently demiurge is upset about how many prog rewards are going out to players, or how few healthpacks the top scorers are buying.0 -
Anyone else having issues with timers on unplayed nodes? I just opened Washington DC sub and all my nodes are showing less than full points, with 24 hr timers.
On completion, nodes are awarding the lesser points, scaling up, but then removing the timer.
Looks like it's another successful Demiurge designed event!0 -
Mawtful wrote:Anyone else having issues with timers on unplayed nodes? I just opened Washington DC sub and all my nodes are showing less than full points, with 24 hr timers.
On completion, nodes are awarding the lesser points, scaling up, but then removing the timer.
Looks like it's another successful Demiurge designed event!
Don't have time to do all my clears right now but opened Washington DC and first node didn't have a timer and gave me 167 points and shows that it's worth 167 still. The numbers on the next node and essentials look a little strange (516 for essentials, maybe scaled?) but nothing's showing a timer.0 -
Vhailorx wrote:Well, you can test skill, but people don't always like it. Gauntlets, and the first runs of galactus and ultron both rewarded superior strategies and break compostion (assuming you had a feel roster). Even the 4* ddqs reward superior tactics. There is always a luck component, but knowing which moves to make (how to maximize the value of ap denial etc) does make a noticeable difference.
But people do get frustrated with high difficulty events that require luck + good tactics/strategies to win.
True that. I find the challenges like the hard gauntlet nodes, high level galactus, and 4* ddq with underleveled 4s to be the most fun thing in the game for me. People get really upset when the objective has a good chance of losing though. I understand why with the limited health packs, but it's a shame.
One of many reasons why this game being ftp makes the game it's own worst enemy.0 -
Just had my "what on earth am I doing" moment with new system. Now aiming for exactly 50th, any higher and I'll feel like an absolute dope for playing too much.
I like the 3x clear idea before timer starts. New scaling feels good, easy at first and tough at the end, allows a bit more roster along the way.0 -
udonomefoo wrote:
True that. I find the challenges like the hard gauntlet nodes, high level galactus, and 4* ddq with underleveled 4s to be the most fun thing in the game for me. People get really upset when the objective has a good chance of losing though. I understand why with the limited health packs, but it's a shame.
One of many reasons why this game being ftp makes the game it's own worst enemy.
f2p games are always their own worst enemy. They are designed to be compulsively fun, but frustrating enough to induce players to spend. They are supposed to have irritating pressure points, that's their whole business model.0 -
Scaling feels not right. I dont understand people, who say this. if you want prevent people to "farm" those 20 minimum points, then lock out the easy nodes after 7 rewards, so 20 points are only farmable in the higher nodes. For scaling issues take only the "normal" level of a char, without champion and boosts. these bonus levels should be a bonus and not the reason 2* full leveled champions scale out normal 3*s (in my case). And i dont understand the need for adding levels after every clear of a node. if you want to prevent farming the 20 minimum points, then add the whole bunch of levels after the 6th or 7th clear.
Grinding is not fun. Grinding with challenge is even less fun.
And give us a clear statement at the beginning of an event like "you have to clear every node x times for the maximum progression, the rest is up to you for rewards and placement, have fun". And i would prefer to clear every node max 3 times for maximum progression.
And PVE should not be another form of PVP, so please make it progression only with alliance progression too like in galactus. i love galactus events, really.
and PLEASE scale rewards too. If we have to play always the same game with higher difficulty its some kind of ridicoulous to play it with always the same rewards.
P.S.: DDQ is fun, because its a challenge in the beginning and becomes farmable after roster-progression. this game has a lack of similar elements.0 -
Well.. I'm finding the scaling nice & easy, honestly. I have no idea why, but even the last nodes are scaling as "Trivial" to "Easy" for me, starting at 120 or even lower. My only guess is that my Doc Ock is undercovered and very underleveled, and he's skewing the calculations in my favour.
For instance, the Ock essential node, after 2 clears, is only at 122. The Ares node is at 115 after 1.
It's been nice for a change to just plunk down almost whatever team I want - well, so long as my champ IF is there - and know I'm going to win without too much fuss. It's almost - gasp - fun. Just kinda monotonous.
But I am just a casual player these days. I long ago gave up chasing placement rewards in Story events. Way too time consuming. Nor have I ever tried to grind out the CP progression. Same reason.0 -
Two more days to go and I can't wait for this to end. I thought that the biggest flaw in previous tests was difficulty. Now that they eased up on that, I noticed that really the biggest issue is time required to play MPQ. I never thought that difficulty was the reason I played "only" three real full-point clears each day (plus enough tries to get CP), it was because it usually got me the max progression reward and also placement between 15-50 in my bracket. I stopped at that because the benefits of playing more weren't worth it. Now that devs made the PVE so easy that I could make the first clear using my (non-buffed) 2-stars, it seems that for a lot of people it was about difficult, as they are playing more, a lot more. I assumed in the beginning that 3 full clears wouldn't be enough to reach max progression, so I have been doing 4 full clears per day. Now it doesn't even get me to top 100. Some of that might be due to increased point requirements for 25 CPs or maybe those other guys just live in some kind of alternate universe where every node rewards you with 50k iso and 50 cp and where Mr Fantastic is THE guy in this game.
It seems that devs are overvaluing their product, thinking that their game is some sort of delicious gourmet meal, which people would want more and more. I see MPQ more as a Big Mac, something quick and simple which doesn't take away too much time from other activities in my life. If you start eating Big Macs in large quantities, I assume that the taste becomes stale rather quickly and the harmful effects it has on your life quality leads you to adopting more healthy lifestyle, dropping Big Macs from your diet altogether. I see the same thing happening here, if the devs think they want increase the amount of time we play this game, especially with the same game modes and rewards as before. And really, the rewards aren't the issue, the time requirements are. Match-3 game shouldn't be anyone's number one hobby.
Increased time requirements also leads to increased boredom. In previous tests it was only worth using my best teams because others couldn't get the job done. Now it seems that I only use my best teams (well, isn't it nice that IMHB and Iron Fist are buffed) because I want my grind to be over as quickly as possible. During the first couple of days I used my buffed 2-stars to play the three easiest nodes (just as in the old system), but after I noticed how much quicker my A-team is, why even bother. Does it feel fair to use 357 IMHB, 250 Iron Fist and 247 Luke Cage against goons just over 100? No, but is it fair for devs to ask me to play match-3-game for 3 hours every day? Just as Manic Street Preachers once sang "If you tolerate this, then your children will be next", hence my post.
Play when you want -concept is in principle a good one but I see it more as a means to choose when I want to use my 1,5 hours to play, not as some way to get more opportunities to play MPQ. The old system more or less made 3 clears per day the ideal solution, so why on earth did devs suddenly think that 6 clears per day is the new optimal. That's double the time, with next to nothing to benefit the player for doing that. If somebody is willing to go along with that, well, it's his/her own choice. Wouldn't it make sense to just make three full point clears the ideal and then start the clock ticking. Healthy, sane people aren't going to continue playing 6+ clears per day for long before they are burnt out.0 -
I was going to wait until the test event was over to leave feedback but since I'm not doing any more of it, why wait?
The scaling was definitely more reasonable for me this time and I could use a lot more of my roster. I'm still not thrilled with the increasing difficulty with each fight but at least I could do it.
The time requirement is absolutely ridiculous for both placement and progression rewards. I normally don't bother with placement in either system just due to my work schedule but I could often at least complete the progression. In this test both seem well out of reach unless I'm willing to pour hours of grinding in and I'm not. As a result I just found myself growing bored of doing battles of ever increasing difficulty for the same rewards and no chance at a greater overall reward for sticking it out to the end; that's actually why I've bailed on this event (something that I've never done before if that means anything)
If you're going to insist on rolling out this new scaling system them I really believe that you need to reduce the amount of clears required to keep fatigue from setting in and to make the rewards reasonably attainable. It would be nice if the rewards per battle also reflected the increased difficulty, 70 Iso and crit boost prizes are just not sufficient anymore. Hours of grinding for mediocre rewards and seemingly unobtainable end prizes is just not fun for me.
I understand that my experiences with this might not reflect everyone else's but it's my 2 cents worth anyway.0 -
I'm not sure what can be done with this system. I don't know whether they read this stuff or not anymore, since they won't talk to us.
I really, really like the system where you fight for max points, and enemies get stronger. BUT I realize now that we're in the third round of testing that it takes a ridiculous amount of time, and it's just plain BORING. I literally have to force myself to do it now. This decreases the fun and increases the burnout, which I imagine is not what they want. If players get burnt out, they stop playing and stop spending money.
And the other bugbear people keep bringing up is that the rewards are not worth it. It helps me a bit, I can usually gain about 3 or 4 levels on one of my higher end 3* every day just from doing the nodes over and over. But rewards need to scale with level. I don't think with my 16 champed 3* I should still be getting 70 iso from a node. And the people in 4* and 5* territory need even more to increase those.
I still think this system would work with a few tweaks. Make it ONLY progression based, put a very good reward at a fairly low amount of points, something that could be easily reached with only 3 clears of each node. And then put more progression rewards beyond that for the people who really want to push themselves. The people who want to have fun can take it somewhat easy and still feel like they're progressing, and the people who play competitively can push themselves on to the higher goals. This is essentially what happens today with the normal Story mode.0 -
Because boosted RHulk roflstomps nearly everything in this event, I mined out all the node rewards in the Wakanda sub pretty early in the day. I had some extra time to play at night, so I decided to see what would happen if I took everything down to 20. Initially, I shot up to top 5, then I dropped out of the top 10 completely in the last hour. I couldn't check right before the sub expired, so I'm not sure what rank I settled in, but I got a top 50 reward because apparently 11th place and 50th are worth the same?
Anyway, the experience solidified my opinion that it's just not worth the effort to shoot for top 10 placement. The only way to materially increase my point total would have been to start my timers earlier in the day, and then grind down to 20 as late as possible. It's not feasible for me, but obviously is for many, so it's not worth even considering. At least the 25 CP reward is sewn up, with three days left in the event.0 -
I'm in two minds with this test. As usual I am doing this PvE because I need the CP and ISO, for no other reason. Any covers are a bonus. I will likely reach CP progression and stop
I do as I always do and joined about late, hoping for a new bracket - which I didn't get (was around 800 when joining). I did a 2/3 clears of all, went to bed, brought them all to 6 clears and left it to the last hour to do the 7th clear, I've not done any grinding to 1, or similar. I'm in the top 50-100 this way and its varying massively
The overwhelming feeling with this PvE is that it is significantly easier - however this is probably factored by the boosting of Cage and Iron Fist. I rarely use Health packs and its only since the Washington subnodes with Falcon removing protects that I've had issues with using more than 2/3. For the record my Rhulk is lvl 111:0/3/1, DcOc is lvl 40:5/4/4 and Ares lvl 144 4/4/5. I'm finding the essential nodes a walk in the park teaming them with Fist/Cage. I don't have a usable Hulkbuster (lvl 86 1/2/1)
Nothing is scaling higher than my boosted characters level. (246cage, 245IF,). I find this very unusual - It's not really coming close.
On one hand I like that I am not pressured to do a clear at a certain time. I like getting all the rewards "quickly"
On the other hand if this were a new release I'd be boned. I can't put in the time needed to grind to 6 then grind again. Its unrealistic.0 -
The event definitely feels easy to clear. But that might be more to do with the fact that the goons are much easier: soldiers as opposed to ninjas or symbiotes; the goons also don't have stupid ap feeding synergies with the playables; and the boosted selection of characters is much stronger, LC, IF, IMHB, Rulk etc.
It still feels unnecessarily grindy though. 6 clears vs 3 before grinding down is a LOT more playing. The only reason I'm playing so much is this even happened to follow one that rewarded rulk and I need to champ him so one of the covers doesn't go to waste.0 -
Here is how i feel about the whole new style of pvp, the different tests have all worked out about the same for me.. i have 95 chars.. with the new style of pvp, i can only use maybe 6 or 7.. and if i level my 5*s to their cover limits (4 over 400), i am down to 4 chars i can realistically use in PVE.. and that makes for one heck of a boring, repetitive game..0
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The scaling is better, but I still don't like the format in general. To play optimally now you have to play for hours straight, not how I want to play.0
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Like everyone else, the new scaling is great for me (roster is a mix of 2-3* characters around L110) as enemies start around L30-50 and finish around L115 if I do 7 clears.
A full clear for me takes around 20 minutes the fist time and 30 minutes by the 6th/7th clear (I don't have Ares or Rulk so can't do their nodes).
I too would prefer 3-4 full clears gets the progression reward.
That said, I suspect the Dev's deliberately made the progression reward require 6 clears. Not because they are sadistic but because they need us to do that many clears so that the scaling can be fully tested. If you could reach progression after 3 clears many would just do 3 clears and so there would be less data to analyze how the 4-7th clears were working out time/enemy level wise (as happened in the last test where many stopped after reaching a very easy progression reward). At least I hope that's the reason we are required to do 6+ clears this test
KGB0 -
It takes too much time. I'll hopefully be able to hit the cp reward, but I regret the fact that it literally takes 300+ total clears throughout the week to get there. That's way too long, just not fun. Just repetitive. And for the amount of clears I've had to do, the ISO rewards have been very, very low.0
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KGB wrote:That said, I suspect the Dev's deliberately made the progression reward require 6 clears. Not because they are sadistic but because they need us to do that many clears so that the scaling can be fully tested. If you could reach progression after 3 clears many would just do 3 clears and so there would be less data to analyze how the 4-7th clears were working out time/enemy level wise (as happened in the last test where many stopped after reaching a very easy progression reward). At least I hope that's the reason we are required to do 6+ clears this test
This is a valid and wise observation, and I hope you are correct. This idea would also help determine how many people are willing to put in the extra time every time. I, for one, am not willing to keep meeting these ridiculous progression goals, so seeing how many people wave the white flag could be another metric of note.
Either way, speeding through these clears is heavily reliant on having good boosted characters. My 3*s can push through, but I'd be lighting health packs on fire if I chose to grind everything into oblivion, and none of my boosted characters except CMags is particularly fast. Hence my decision to just stop and go for the 2 CP from the nodes.0
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