PVE Scaling Feedback & New Test : Prodigal Sun

Magic

I am going for cp from nodes only in this pve. My feedback is - too much grind. It has to lowered. 3 clears to get max progression was already a lot. Now it seems like it's more. It's a no for me.

donnel

I am very surprised that we're continuing to get tests of the same PVE format with only minor tweaks in balancing. Here are the biggest issues I have with the changes:

Scaling is not the answer to all balance questions: It seems like a very hard task to make the "challenge" of the game feel similar across rosters of different sizes and levels. To this point, I really want to know why the default solution to any problem in the game is modifying scaling / matchmaking (it certainly does not feel like progression if I have to put in the same level of effort for the same rewards regardless of roster improvement). In PVE, the contest has always been about who's fastest (fastest to clear, fastest to grind, etc..). This has in the past enabled stronger rosters to aim for the top more consistently because the difficulty curve has not accurately scaled matches once players get to the 4*/5* level. Well, it looks like you've "solved" this problem for us. PVE grinding will now take similar amounts of time regardless of roster strength, meaning players of all levels could reach for the top if only they spent the incredible time investment to do so. Mission accomplished?

MPQ should not have play formats that require 4-5 hrs of time investment to "win". Let's face it, there is not really much diversity in the gameplay offered. A two hour grind at the end of each day is something most people feel reluctant to do. But with the new format you're suggesting we should do this twice every day if we want to play efficiently?

I'm sure you're receiving feedback from all kinds of different MPQ players (from casual to hardcore). I would suggest that you consider the feedback of more competitive players more carefully. It really is not difficult to reach progression under any PVE format as long as you play a moderate amount each day. I would be surprised to see any top PVE players viewing these changes as favorable to their game experience.

Vhailorx

fmftint wrote:

I just discovered that in the test format max enemy level is dynamic. In the old format changing your roster mid sub would not change your sub difficulty, now it will
Last night my event T3 were Rulk 367, HB 632, Phoenix, 360 and my Coercive Force node after 6x was 324/234/234
This morning I put 10 levels on my Phoenix making my T3 370/637/362. This change increased that node to 325/326/326

Max difficulty now seems to cap at roughly 90% of your T3

Potential issue, it this were The Hulk event I'd be looking at a level 978 Hulk, or Thick as Thieves level 489 CMag/Hood

Is this confirmed? If so, that's another very large change in the format (and one of which the players has no notice). Leveling up during an event basically provides no advantage of this is true. Hell, even adding covers could be problematic if it affects scaling.

Zombionicdoom

I managed to cut off part of my finger today so what better way to test out the new format than sat in a doctor's waiting room for hours. I was initially excited about having been gifted this MPQ playtime. And what happened....

I GOT BORED!

I love this game and have played it diligently over the past year, creating my own alliance, spending hard cash on building a mighty roster and generally trying to spread the MPQ love but this 6 clear grind format absolutely sucks.

The positive - The scaling is a vast vast improvement and I believe they've finally got it right.

The grind is just utterly miserable though I'm no longer competitive AT ALL in terms of ranking and I've played for hours And hours over the past couple of days, much more so than I'm normally able because I have a life and a family to look after, which MPQ used to sit alongside of quite nicely.

Now it simply feels like a waste of time. So disappointing, especially after supporting the game monetarily.

fmftint

Vhailorx wrote:

fmftint wrote:

I just discovered that in the test format max enemy level is dynamic. In the old format changing your roster mid sub would not change your sub difficulty, now it will
Last night my event T3 were Rulk 367, HB 632, Phoenix, 360 and my Coercive Force node after 6x was 324/234/234
This morning I put 10 levels on my Phoenix making my T3 370/637/362. This change increased that node to 325/326/326

Max difficulty now seems to cap at roughly 90% of your T3

Potential issue, it this were The Hulk event I'd be looking at a level 978 Hulk, or Thick as Thieves level 489 CMag/Hood

Is this confirmed? If so, that's another very large change in the format (and one of which the players has no notice). Leveling up during an event basically provides no advantage of this is true. Hell, even adding covers could be problematic if it affects scaling.

This was immediatly after clear 6, T3 367, 362, 360


And this is what happened after I leveled Phoenix to 370.
T3 370, 367, 362

Linkster79

Having tried it out tonight after a hards days real grind at my actual job it wasn't nearly as bad as I thought it would be.

I like the scaling, especially on the trivial nodes. Sometimes after a long, hard day at work I like to sit back and relax. I don't want a challenge all the time, sometimes I just want to move gems in a semi coherent manner and steam roll the AI. Believe it or not at times easy is fun (my gutter mind is laughing at that one). I like my super heroes to feel well.....super. Please bear in mind though that just ramping up the scaling is not a challenge and certainly isn't fun, it is cheap and easy way to draw out matches.

As for the timer issue, well I take back what I said earlier, I couldn't give a rat's **** what you do with it so maybe best to read what those who really care about being in the top 10 think.

Now to go and grab some more Hobgoblin (the beer not the character) and relax a bit more.

scottee

People are having a hard time focusing on the individual changes in their feedback.

I think the change to full points for the beginning clears before going to a timer are awesome. I much prefer playing in one sitting instead of having to schedule 8-hour intervals to clear. All you've got to do is make the same # of clears as it was before for optimal.

Before:
3 clears spaced 8 hours apart, then final grind.

Current test:
6 clears whenever you want, then final grind.

It should be:
3 clears whenever you want, then final grind.

Do that with the current or similar scaling and a top progression that is reasonable and everyone will love you.

Zombionicdoom

scottee wrote:

Before:
3 clears spaced 8 hours apart, then final grind.

Current test:
6 clears whenever you want, then final grind.

It should be:
3 clears whenever you want, then final grind.

Do that with the current or similar scaling and a top progression that is reasonable and everyone will love you.

I absolutely agree with this.

Vinmarc43

Simple
we want EASY as in 5 year old kid EASY
NOT hard like adult Hard
We dot not need a challenge, we need to farm iso.
Like I said, SIMPLE D3

Jwhitmire36

Just reiterating other people's thoughts and what i've said on previous tests, the 6 clear grind is just WAY tooo much time investment. I don'tunderstand the need to DOUBLE the amount of time required to be competitive, why not stick with 3 clears and then the timer starts?? I'm traveling now and able to spend more time than typical and I can't even keep in the top 200 having cleared the top point nodes 6 times.

On a positive side I do think the node difficulty levels are much improved from the previous 2 tests.

waywreth

scottee wrote:

People are having a hard time focusing on the individual changes in their feedback.

I think the change to full points for the beginning clears before going to a timer are awesome. I much prefer playing in one sitting instead of having to schedule 8-hour intervals to clear. All you've got to do is make the same # of clears as it was before for optimal.

Before:
3 clears spaced 8 hours apart, then final grind.

Current test:
6 clears whenever you want, then final grind.

It should be:
3 clears whenever you want, then final grind.

Do that with the current or similar scaling and a top progression that is reasonable and everyone will love you.

Fully agreed on this point.

zodiac339

I would actually appreciate more points lost from a node, 1/3 as opposed to 1/6, for those timers. I think the end grind would actually feel more reasonable with it taking fewer clears to get to the minimum points. The competitive types, and those who want to get a new character, see clearing out available points as an obligation.

Flakricket

The scaling is fine...it never really bothered me how it was before and if you keep it this way that's fine.

My issue, like so many others,is the time needed to perform what now seems like a tedious task. I play longer and fall lower on the rankings...what is the benefit in that? If anything, this new system, if put into action permanently, will save me money because I'm not going to spend any if I find the game boring, and with this forced repetition, it is.

This is supposed to be my enjoyment, not my job.

Just remember...the game play style that you seem so desperate to change garnered you over 5 million downloads... If it's not broke, don't fix it

pabasa130

First off, I still do not understand why Demiurge is insisting on making the easier nodes increase in difficulty. Under non-test environments, this is the only place where I can use my deadweight 0/2/1 OML and 1/1/2 Spidey to grind down the easy nodes in a few seconds each and save from spending healthpacks.

But eh, regardless, with this new difficulty change, it is now tolerable. I can still use my deadweight 5*s, and although letting a goon fire off a node is still painful, it definitely wasn't as bad as the previous two test runs, where letting a stupid thug cast off his pistol is a 3000 point health penalty to an already difficult to kill node. This time, a commander pistol lets off 1700 damage, which is still ok. But not better than the non-test nodes trivial nodes where they do about 700 damage.

On the harder nodes, coming into Prodigal Sun, the best team that I use is a boosted 353 IMHB (1100 damage per red AP!), 248 Luke Cage and 246 Iron Fist.

My hardest nodes cap out at level 292, thus as long as I have IMHB it is quite easy to grind. But I suspect the bulk of why this is tolerable is because I have IMHB to nuke things within a few turns. I worry in scenarios where my boosted characters for the week are Elektra or Chulk.

In conclusion, I am OK with the changes in the test environment. Obviously a downgrade from the easier nodes under a non-test environment, but the easier harder nodes make the package a bit more palatable.

Of course, there is the other issue of the number of grinds for optimal scoring, but I hope the devs will have another test for this. Since under non-test systems we typically just need to hit each nodes 11 times for max points, I'd really appreciate if we keep the same number of hits in the new environment. Start the point reset timer at 4 hits instead of 6 and it will be 11 times for max points, unlike the 14 times currently in place.

Keegan

pabasa130 wrote:

First off, I still do not understand why Demiurge is insisting on making the easier nodes increase in difficulty. Under non-test environments, this is the only place where I can use my deadweight 0/2/1 OML and 1/1/2 Spidey to grind down the easy nodes in a few seconds each and save from spending healthpacks.

The game has to have speed bumps in it by design, not everyone is supposed to progress equally because half of the game is competition-based in placement (with the other half being progression, your milage may vary on relative values). The timer is a speed bump. Remove the timer, replace it with increased scaling each time you hit a node. The six to set off the timer/seven to clear a node is another speed bump.

People don't like speed bumps, in life or in software, but they're there by design.

EDIT: speed bumps also an equalizer as well. If you're able to grind down nodes in a few seconds and it takes others (or most, relatively speaking) a few minutes, you have a competitive advantage that is being nerfed. The timer in the previous system, as I said, was a pretty comparable nerfing (and again, YMMV).

blargrx

scottee wrote:

Before:
3 clears spaced 8 hours apart, then final grind.

Current test:
6 clears whenever you want, then final grind.

It should be:
3 clears whenever you want, then final grind.

Do that with the current or similar scaling and a top progression that is reasonable and everyone will love you.

Can everyone just keep reposting this and upvoting it until it happens

alphabeta

So before devs think they've nailed it - scaling is better but that vs the mess of previous versions - trivial nodes are hitting silly difficulty to quickly and by and large most of the mid to lower end of roster is locked out.

Suggestions;

For the initial 3 trivial nodes cap max difficulty they can hit - the rewards (points and 7 node awards) are terrible anyway

For essential nodes - why not make them like DPD - 2* essential can only use 1* & 2* - 3* node 3* and below, 4* 4* and below and again a max level cap (and to avoid people just carrying min level essentials a min level cap) on these nodes

All rewards should be progression related (inc within subs) - especially if you are wedded to this time suck format.

And the age old gripe - make 7 day event rewards commensurate with effort - if you are so worried about CP and covers just make them double ISO or something.

Chipster22

Keegan wrote:

pabasa130 wrote:

First off, I still do not understand why Demiurge is insisting on making the easier nodes increase in difficulty. Under non-test environments, this is the only place where I can use my deadweight 0/2/1 OML and 1/1/2 Spidey to grind down the easy nodes in a few seconds each and save from spending healthpacks.

The game has to have speed bumps in it by design, not everyone is supposed to progress equally because half of the game is competition-based in placement (with the other half being progression, your milage may vary on relative values). The timer is a speed bump. Remove the timer, replace it with increased scaling each time you hit a node. The six to set off the timer/seven to clear a node is another speed bump.

People don't like speed bumps, in life or in software, but they're there by design.

EDIT: speed bumps also an equalizer as well. If you're able to grind down nodes in a few seconds and it takes others (or most, relatively speaking) a few minutes, you have a competitive advantage that is being nerfed. The timer in the previous system, as I said, was a pretty comparable nerfing (and again, YMMV).

But in the previous tests at least, those who soft capped their roster at level 94 appeared to be the ones who could grind down nodes in seconds. 5* players faced much tougher opponents.

IMHO, it would better for the 5*'s to have the advantage.

Keegan

Chipster22 wrote:

Keegan wrote:

pabasa130 wrote:

First off, I still do not understand why Demiurge is insisting on making the easier nodes increase in difficulty. Under non-test environments, this is the only place where I can use my deadweight 0/2/1 OML and 1/1/2 Spidey to grind down the easy nodes in a few seconds each and save from spending healthpacks.

The game has to have speed bumps in it by design, not everyone is supposed to progress equally because half of the game is competition-based in placement (with the other half being progression, your milage may vary on relative values). The timer is a speed bump. Remove the timer, replace it with increased scaling each time you hit a node. The six to set off the timer/seven to clear a node is another speed bump.

People don't like speed bumps, in life or in software, but they're there by design.

EDIT: speed bumps also an equalizer as well. If you're able to grind down nodes in a few seconds and it takes others (or most, relatively speaking) a few minutes, you have a competitive advantage that is being nerfed. The timer in the previous system, as I said, was a pretty comparable nerfing (and again, YMMV).

But in the previous tests at least, those who soft capped their roster at level 94 appeared to be the ones who could grind down nodes in seconds. 5* players faced much tougher opponents.

IMHO, it would better for the 5*'s to have the advantage.

From what I read here (and experienced), the first test sucked for everyone. Nodes became nightmares after the second or third clears all around the board I think; my 2*s were in the 80s at the time and I got scaled out just like everyone else.

The second test was different - it's the one where the 4* and 5* players were still hurting by too much scaling since there's an exponential increase in power as levels go up so lower level players were doing okay by the scaling, at least according to the test notes.

This third test is to fix that problem, high tier players getting scaled out. It seems like that part is fairly successful. What it looks like they are not independently testing is the removal of the timer as the speed bump, because that looks like it's going to be permanent in favor of scaling as the speed bump.

Crowl

blargrx wrote:

scottee wrote:

Before:
3 clears spaced 8 hours apart, then final grind.

Current test:
6 clears whenever you want, then final grind.

It should be:
3 clears whenever you want, then final grind.

Do that with the current or similar scaling and a top progression that is reasonable and everyone will love you.

Can everyone just keep reposting this and upvoting it until it happens

There is still room to improve on that, say you have a 7 day event like this one, you could have a fair amount of people who might be unable to have the same final hour free all the time, so maybe they could do something like this:

Do 4 clears whenever you want (3 is probably cutting it down too far) and this would be enough for max progression.
Nodes lock after 5 clears, the one additional clear thins the crowd for placements as many would stop at 4.
Rather than unlocking it at the end for a final grind, you should have a system that let's you manually choose to unlock it for an hour whenever you like to do your final grind.