PVE Scaling Feedback & New Test : Prodigal Sun

Bryan Lambert

Gmax101 wrote:

Is the fact that so many people are actually grinding the nodes the fault of the developers...?

Yes. Yes, it is. It's the fault or intention of the designers under the old system, and it's the fault or intention of the designers under the new system.

By limiting the most desirable (or, in new character releases, most desirable and unique) rewards to a set percentage of scorers, and by determining that percentage strictly through how much players grind, they've set up a classic Prisoner's Dilemma. Sure, you as a player could grind less, but unless all 1,000 people in your bracket agree to grind less, and 900 of them agree to miss out on Top 100 rewards, someone's gonna grind a little more to get into the next prize bracket, and then someone below them is gonna grind a little more to get back into the bracket, etcetera, etcetera.

This is what competitive PvE does. It's how people react to the prize structure. So that's totally the developers' fault. It's what they want happening. I don't know WHY it's what they want happening, but it's what they want happening.

Under the old system, with the timers, the optimal play pattern for maximum points put a cap on how much grinding there could be. Three clears plus final grind, and final grind. The new system raises that cap to six clears plus final grind. Since the core competitive PvE rewards grinding, raising the grinding cap will automatically either increase grinding for everyone across the board, or lower the rewards for the same amount of grinding. Or both, really.

The old system wasn't any fairer, because it still hard-limited the good prizes to a small percentage of the player base regardless of how well the players did. But at least the diminishing returns started kicking in at around 2-3 hours of play per day (which is, I cannot stress enough, already completely tinykitting insane for a mobile game) instead of 4+ under the new system.

__Adam

TheWerebison wrote:

Day 4 of my captivity.

I find myself regretting the choices I have made with my life, specifically the one where I told myself grinding 9 nodes 6 times a day at any time of my choosing would be a simple task. By day 3, my once-sound mind began to feel the strain caused by the endeavor, but I shrugged it off like a champion. There were worse punishments.

Now I feel my life essence waning as I toil away, forcing myself to press ever onward. My crime was despicable, to be sure, but I begin to wonder: is my penance too harsh? Was it folly to put my faith in the developer? Was I wrong in believing there was enjoyment to be gained from attacking the same node over and over and over again, for the same meager rewards, and the only difference between each fight is that it gets a little bit harder? I sob and bury my face in my hands. No, my penance is not too harsh for believing thus; it is not harsh enough.

Wiping my tears away, I glance out the window. The brilliant sunlight shines upon deep fields of greens and yellows. Freedom. How I miss it. Somewhere out there, my wife will even now be taking the children to the park, as we used to do of a Monday afternoon. My dearest Martha, I will be with you again, one day. I just have to earn that damned 25 CP.

That was epic.

I hate to say it but I'm hoping the devs keep making unpopular changes just to read this kind of feedback.

DTStump

Bryan Lambert wrote:

By limiting the most desirable (or, in new character releases, most desirable and unique) rewards to a set percentage of scorers, and by determining that percentage strictly through how much players grind, they've set up a classic Prisoner's Dilemma.

+1
Awesome reference to game theory.

Unknown

Ok I take back what I said. The difficulty of the levels is fine this test, but the overall progression rewards are insane. 100k points is just too much. I have more time than normal this week and I will still have to grind a ton on the last levels.

The 6/7 clears is just too much. Are progression rewards really that big of a deal to lock behind so much time? One legendary pull per event is not worth that much time. Which makes me wonder why I even play the game when I can't progress without this much time.

Ideally, I feel a full clear of the zone Once, then a few extra required character levels is all it should take. Ideally, just hitting the two command point nodes until you get the CP should be enough over one clear.

This just shows the overall problem with the game. It's a game about grinding levels, not playing challenging levels. I would love to see challenging boss battles that I can lose, as long as I don't have to grind that level 6 times.

TheWerebison

All right, finally hit the 104k mark doing 6 clears almost every sub. So I can definitely say that 6 clears of every node is not necessary, since there's still a whole day left (which believe you me, I am going to take off). It IS high, but for fairness' sake, I feel I have to say that it isn't necessary to do all 6 clears every single day.

That being said...the whole structure makes it feel like you need to start right away at getting every single clear. It's probably designed that way, to get people to play more days. When the first sub opens, the points are crazy low. Yes, we know that points will go up as the subs continue, but since we don't accurately know by how much each time, we can't figure out how many clears of each node are actually necessary to hit progression max. So we push ourselves from the very start, and get burned out quickly. At least that is my experience.

Ah well. At least I'm done with it. Except for going for the final 2 CP in the last sub, on the seventh day I rest.

snlf25

Calnexin wrote:

Polares wrote:

Gmax101 wrote:

nobody is making anyone do it, and with the rewards on offer one could argue that they are actively dissuading you from trying to grind... and yet lots of people are still doing it?

New scaling is much better for 4 or 4-5 players, but the problem is that it is even easier than before for championed 3s rosters and 94 level capped players (!!!!). And I think this is a problem for the future of the game. This game has moved to a point were having a roster with a lot of championed 3s is the best place to stay, for PvE, and now also for PvP (at least for sim, my alliance team mates have reported that this new sim has been really easy compared to the old ones, for reaching the highest scores you still need 5s, but I think that to getting to 800 3s are in a very good place right now).

I'm in 3-land and I agree, the actual play is pretty easy. But the number of clears required - both for progression and placement - has been insane. The placement is our (the players') fault, because we're in direct competition with one another. If we'd collectively chill out it wouldn't be as bad. Progression - I don't know. Maybe they've got it right. I was getting frustrated around my 60k mark, but I'm just about there with another full sub available, which roughly tracks with my previous efforts.

In order to reach that, though, I'm basically committing all of my free time to it. About an hour in the morning before work. About 1 hr immediately after work inbetween/concurrent with meal and family time, and then 2 hours before going to sleep (1 to finish up previous, 1 to start new). 4 hours/day. It's becoming a part-time job that I don't get paid for. And I echo madsalad - I too am literally falling asleep trying to clear nodes.

It does seem easier but looks who buffed - Magneto, Cage and Iron Fist. At the level they are at I wouldn't shy away from putting them up against 4* teams, they are a buzz saw. Also, we are not fighting the overly powerful Damned Dark Avengers (Prodigal Sun is one of my favorites for this reason) so imagine this scaling slogging through buffed Boobstone, Ares,Bullseye, Daken et all with Vision, Quicksilver, Psylocke and Punisher buffed! Pure HELL!

This is not a sufficient test to decide if this scaling is good in any way shape or form!

Do not fall for this test thinking things are good because this one is lightning in a bottle. Give us a non-heroic with lesser toons buffed and lets see the real truth of it.

HaywireII

I noticed a big drop in grinding in my bracket after hitting the 25 CP. The first five days I had to do 7+ clears of each node to make top 50. Day 6 I only had to do 4-6 clears of each node to hit top 50. I wonder if the developer's metrics will show a big drop in participation after players hit the 25 CP reward across the board.

fun_and_gun

the placement rewards are poor. mr. fantastic and 3* falcon...meh

Smudge

HaywireII wrote:

I noticed a big drop in grinding in my bracket after hitting the 25 CP. The first five days I had to do 7+ clears of each node to make top 50. Day 6 I only had to do 4-6 clears of each node to hit top 50. I wonder if the developer's metrics will show a big drop in participation after players hit the 25 CP reward across the board.

In your bracket, perhaps. Not in mine. I'm thrilled I elected to take the easy route and just grind out the CP from the nodes and not even bother with progression this time when I look at these scores.

T10 in my bracket?
#1: 166717
#2: 166498
#3: 166190
#4: 165181
#5: 164266
#6: 161079
#7: 157246
#8: 146842
#9: 146710
#10: 143887

That is insanity in my opinion. Going 60% above and beyond progression for Mr. Fantastic and Falcon? Keep this in mind too: I am in slice 5. There are still a full day and 12 hours remaining in this event for my bracket. Not to mention, the top ranked guy in my alliance right now is over 190,000...

The vast majority of these players are sporting champed 3* rosters with a few undercovered and mostly useless 5*s among them, maybe a helpful but undercovered Hulkbuster. One (#10) is fielding mostly champed 4*s and 5*s. 2 or 3 of them are in the 2-3* transition.

All you players in love with this new system out there... how does this bode for you when this is a new character release event, hmm?

KGB

Vhailorx wrote:

snlf25 wrote:

KGB wrote:

Like everyone else, the new scaling is great for me (roster is a mix of 2-3* characters around L110) as enemies start around L30-50 and finish around L115 if I do 7 clears.

A full clear for me takes around 20 minutes the fist time and 30 minutes by the 6th/7th clear (I don't have Ares or Rulk so can't do their nodes).



KGB

You are exactly who this new PvE system is designed to favor. The downside for you is that if you enjoy playing at this difficulty level you can never level your roster. And that really sucks.

Also, KGB, think about what you just said. 6 clears at 20-30 minutes. That's almost 3 hours a day on just PvE without considering the grind. That's a huge time investment, even more than is necessary under the old system. And that's not even enough to get near the top 10 4* covers.

I have no plans to level my roster past 110 until I literally have 13 covers for all my 3* characters (I have the top 25 3* rostered) and my 4* characters have at least 6-8 covers. Right now I have 600K ISO, 200+ CP and LOTS of tokens saved because I am hero point starved. There is ZERO incentive to level up for me since all my characters (45) are usable (including a handful of 4* when boosted). Sure, in PvP all I can do is hope to hit 800 and the 3* character cover but that nets me a couple heroic tokens and some more hero points for roster spots. Same with PvE, I just play for top 100 to get some 3* covers those needed hero points and of course the 25 CP + CP in 4* essentials I happen to have. Since I am constantly improving my roster and slowly acquiring new characters, CP, tokens etc I'm happy.

Vhailorx, I agree 100% about the time spent per day. I didn't say I loved doing it or that it was reasonable. I was merely reporting my time per clear to get an idea of how long others were spending. I agree it's WAY too much. I'm lucky I am a mobile player so I can do 1-2 clears on my lunch hour, 1 more before I head home and then the rest while watching Stanley Cup playoff hockey. I would never be able to invest time like that if I was a PC player. 3-4 clears for the all progression rewards is what I'd prefer.

KGB

hkattman

Let me begin by saying, I am not a competitive player. I get my 800 on pvp, my 10k for the season, finish ddq everyday, and get all the progression rewards on most pve's but frankly don't care what my ranking is because I refuse to grind to get these rewards. But I play pve differently to give myself a little bit of a challenge. So the first couple of days when the points are low, I sit out. In fact, I really just got started on day 5 on this pve. My current score is 72k and I know that I will make the progression 25cp again tomorrow, so not concerned about it.

Honestly, I like the 6 clears at maximum points before the falling. It allows for freedom to play whenever you so desire. Play at your own pace and play whenever you desire. If you do the clears, you'll get top progression.

If you want to turn person vs. event into person vs. person then you know what you have to do. You have to clear all 6 clears and grind at the end of every mini. It isn't rocket science, you know what you have to do. This is supposed to be person versus event and you attempt to get every award in the progression cycle. Imagine the person versus person aspect of the person versus event didn't exist and you'll actually understand that this new way of doing it is actually better than the old system.

That being said, I do believe the second test was a better skill level for the opposing teams than this one. The more you want to grind the harder it should get. This one seems to just stay way too easy.

fruinjuice

Just going to keep it short and to the point...

1) The scaling is good now, maybe even a little on the easy side as it was not hard to get the 7th clear of the hardest nodes with only a few health packs gone.
2) Placement awards need to go...and be replaced by increasing progression awards - particularly at the later point ranges. Throw in the 3* covers just below the CP progression. Put one 4* cover at 1.5, 1.75 and 2x CP progression (or similar)
3) Change the 6 hits before cooldown to 5 and make the timer 12 hrs.

bOmbast

Why not some whooping ISO rewards instead for those that choose to go further than the 25 CP progression? 1000, 5000, even 10 000? Covers are relatively easy to accumulate, ISO less so...

Vhailorx

bOmbast wrote:

Why not some whooping ISO rewards instead for those that choose to go further than the 25 CP progression? 1000, 5000, even 10 000? Covers are relatively easy to accumulate, ISO less so...

No! The problem is not that we need to grind more after the 25cp reward! The problem is that we don't get good enough rewards for the grinding we already do. Your suggestion is fine, but it's not the top priority.

Double the existing iso rewards eveywhere. Keep the cp progression reward at 3 full clears per sub. Award 4* covers for the top 100 or 150 in PvP/pve. Fix the scaling issues (after prodigal son, it seems like scaling need to be a bit easier for vets, a bit harder for 3* transitioners, and the easy nodes should still be a bit lower.

Calnexin

snlf25 wrote:

imagine this scaling slogging through buffed Boobstone, Ares,Bullseye, Daken et all with Vision, Quicksilver, Psylocke and Punisher buffed! Pure HELL!

Hey, don't knock Vision. I've been using him all the way through the 6th non-essential node unbuffed. I'm steamrolling the lesser nodes with him, blade, and IF, but Vision is usually doing the heavy (ha!) lifting.

CaptainFrugal

After more time, play and consideration.
Scaling is still a little high but it is close"even for the 3 star transition, especially if you have a 5 star on your roster with one cover". Remember this may not seem bad with goons but what happens when you fight Juggernaut?


Once again why does it need to scale anyway?

7 clears is too much, how about 4.

More ISO for rewards and remove the critical boost...really how is that a reward for beating a level 250 team?

It is moving in a good direction but it takes too much time and it will burn people out.

bOmbast

Vhailorx wrote:

bOmbast wrote:

Why not some whooping ISO rewards instead for those that choose to go further than the 25 CP progression? 1000, 5000, even 10 000? Covers are relatively easy to accumulate, ISO less so...

No! The problem is not that we need to grind more after the 25cp reward! The problem is that we don't get good enough rewards for the grinding we already do. Your suggestion is fine, but it's not the top priority.

Double the existing iso rewards eveywhere. Keep the cp progression reward at 3 full clears per sub. Award 4* covers for the top 100 or 150 in PvP/pve. Fix the scaling issues (after prodigal son, it seems like scaling need to be a bit easier for vets, a bit harder for 3* transitioners, and the easy nodes should still be a bit lower.

Agree with all of that, rewards should be much better all over! It was more a suggestion for an alternative to placement rankings. And a recognition of the fact that ISO is more in demand than covers for most people. It would be a chore to get that ISO, but at least it would be a source for some serious ISO income if you're desperate. Now there's nowhere to go.

joaoleal

For me, scaling has been ok (I've got 3 5* at 255 with 4/1/1 covers) and then about 9 champed 3* (including mags and fist). I've been clearing the nodes with Fist/Phoenix/Mags and it's quite easy. I haven't 6'd all nodes but I guess the toughest one will go up to the low 200's which is still quite easy.

In terms of hitting the progression rewards, I've done 7+ a few each day apart from day 1, and am currently on 160k points, will probably finish around the 180/190k mark so in my opinion it is pretty much easy to get the 25cps by doing around 3 reps each of the lower point nodes and 7 reps the higher points ones. As always there are more points on the last days so it might be easier to leave the grinding for the end.

Placement rewards suck, but I'm playing for ISO farm and happen to be around top10 on my bracket so that just makes me play to stay on that level. It sucks and I hate it that I'm playing the entire day, but at the same time, at least if I want to play I can.

With the old system you can't play if it's not optimal with this system I have about 24h to do 7 repeats, which quite suits me better than old system. I don't care a lot about being top1 or topX but I feel with this system I have more chances of getting a better result (might be skewed by not a lot of players competing for Mr. F.)

I agree with pretty much everyone that placement awards suck. Progression on PVE should be rewarded. Add some alliance ****, like each member can only pick one boosted character and have alliance progression rewards.

If you want people to play more, offer a insane progression reward of 50cp that is only achievable if you grind like hell. In my opinion people don't mind playing a lot if the rewards are proportional.

Also, I don't get why each node needs to have a Critical Boost. I'd love to see the numbers on how many people use that stupid boost.

SnowcaTT

I did somehow hit progression. I hit progression on the 1st PVE after they changed the reward to LT (now CP) - and remembered PVE was the devil.

I can't remember last time I hit progression on a seven day event.

I doubt I ever will again...this time benefited -GREATLY- from having lots of time, and even more from having Fist/Cage (my PVE go-to's) boosted, making the grind easier and the health pack need light.

I never would have hit that progression if I had to play at specific times, this only happened because I could casually hit the nodes whenever I had some time throughout the day. Never did the end grinds, never hit a node more than seven times.

Except for CP - those I hit eight times a few times. I suppose I should thank those nodes for not dripping CP right away....

Vhailorx

Jaoleal:

Under the old system you could definitely play whenever you wanted. It's true that top 10 placement required optimal play (and that is still true under the new system), but everything else was available even for players that 'played on their own schedule."

The old system was definitely better for those who played more (though still flawed in many ways) and the new system is a push at best for almost everyone else. There is a narrow class of "mostly 2*s + 1-cover 5*s" players who benefit from the new scaling. But the overall effect of the new one system is negative for the bulk of the playing community.

Sadly, judging by the number of "the scaling is now ok" posts, I expect that demiurge will soon announce something very close to this prodigal sun test as the new normal pve system. And everyone will then get really pissed in the next character releases event when it becomes clear that the main effect of the new system is more grinding for everyone without any change to the already underwhelming rewards.