PVE Scaling Feedback & New Test : Prodigal Sun

revskip

Natsufan01 wrote:

Overall, I enjoyed the PVE this time around because of how it impacted everything else in the game too. The PVE itself wasn't anything special. The one down side for me was that reaching progression on a PVE is almost always good enough for a top 100, and often top 50 placement, unless it's for a new character. This time, I'm getting a top 200 reward. Oh well, no big deal anyway.

There was a really weird spread in what brackets were seeing for placement in this event. I know of two people in my alliance who posted scores slightly higher than mine (138846) and ended up outside of the top 100. I ended up at #21 in my bracket with that score and two others in my alliance posted slightly lower scores (although still over the CP) and both hit top 20.

Also there were weird spreads of roster strength, in my bracket there wasn't a single 2* in the top ten and only two 3* rosters with the other 7 being 4* rosters with plenty of champs. Every roster in the top 10 had at least two 5*s as well with the top 5 all having them well covered. In some of my alliance mates brackets the spread was totally different, 2*s and 3* rosters being much more well represented and fewer 4* teams.

Vhailorx wrote:

Jaoleal:

Under the old system you could definitely play whenever you wanted. It's true that top 10 placement required optimal play (and that is still true under the new system), but everything else was available even for players that 'played on their own schedule."

The old system was definitely better for those who played more (though still flawed in many ways) and the new system is a push at best for almost everyone else. There is a narrow class of "mostly 2*s + 1-cover 5*s" players who benefit from the new scaling. But the overall effect of the new one system is negative for the bulk of the playing community.

Sadly, judging by the number of "the scaling is now ok" posts, I expect that demiurge will soon announce something very close to this prodigal sun test as the new normal pve system. And everyone will then get really pissed in the next character releases event when it becomes clear that the main effect of the new system is more grinding for everyone without any change to the already underwhelming rewards.

This is a talking point that you've been making over and over but it simply isn't true. I missed out on top 50 in the last event purely because of the timers. I couldn't get an optimal set of clears on the last day, had to settle for double tapping and was passed by maybe 150 points ending up at #51.

In the new system I would have been able to do my clears all at once without having to worry that someone who had more time to set their alarm clock more efficiently.

I do agree with you that scaling back the total clears before the timer sets would be nice. I also agree that it would be nice if the rewards for beating the nodes scaled to the roster of the person clearing them much like the enemies do. 4* rosters shouldn't be getting 70 iso rewards for beating a team that takes longer to knock off than the 2* players.

But saying that you could play when you want in the old system is simply untrue if you were trying for placement, be it top 1-2, top 10, top 20, top 50 or even top 100. All it takes is a slightly more efficient clear to knock you off. In the new system that advantage is negated, if I grind more I place higher. Yes, there still is an optimal clear method which is much more time consuming for the top 10 players and likely the top 100 during new character releases. I'd still prefer the extra grind to the old system where if I can't block off my timer perfectly I lose because someone else can.

tizian2015

revskip wrote:

But saying that you could play when you want in the old system is simply untrue if you were trying for placement, be it top 1-2, top 10, top 20, top 50 or even top 100. All it takes is a slightly more efficient clear to knock you off. In the new system that advantage is negated, if I grind more I place higher. Yes, there still is an optimal clear method which is much more time consuming for the top 10 players and likely the top 100 during new character releases. I'd still prefer the extra grind to the old system where if I can't block off my timer perfectly I lose because someone else can.

If there are people in your bracket who can grind more than you with the new system its the same story. Your theory could only be true if you are playing every pve against the same persons, but you dont. And many people avoid these tests. It depends only about the bracket you join. For example: In the last normal pve i was far away from the 25cp progression but hit place16 in the overall placement.

Lemminkäinen

I don't like the new system. It feels like a drag. All the nodes were absolutely trivial since my level 300 4/1/1 OML and boosted Iron Fist are an absolutely ridiculous pair (especially with boosted CMags along) but I didn't have any fun. In the old system I do each of the nodes once every eight hours and then grind a bit at the end - in the tested system I ended up trying to do six clears of the same node back to back and that was just boring as heck.

CNash

Boosted CMags has really skewed people's perceptions of difficulty in this PVE. Combine him with IM40 and you'll utterly destroy almost every node while taking very minimal damage. Even by himself he's incredibly destructive.

I'd like the next test to be run with boosted characters who aren't the top damage dealers in the 3* tier. Doesn't have to be as drastic as "boost Psylocke and Punisher lol", but the devs have to do better with managing expectations and resist the urge to skew the test with things like this to try to influence the results. Of course people thought the scaling was good or easy - they've been destroying everyone with 6000-damage Magnetized Projectiles!

AsylumTKJ

CNash wrote:

Boosted CMags has really skewed people's perceptions of difficulty in this PVE. Combine him with IM40 and you'll utterly destroy almost every node while taking very minimal damage. Even by himself he's incredibly destructive.

You can add boosted Hulkbuster and Redhulk to the list.

optimus2861

And don't forget Fist & Cage. Punch punch punch, free attack tile, free protect tile. Even She-Hulk, who can steal specials, shake the board, and oh yeah, wipe out enemy AP in a pinch.

It was a really strong set of boosted characters this week.

TxMoose

AsylumTKJ wrote:

CNash wrote:

Boosted CMags has really skewed people's perceptions of difficulty in this PVE. Combine him with IM40 and you'll utterly destroy almost every node while taking very minimal damage. Even by himself he's incredibly destructive.

You can add boosted Hulkbuster and Redhulk to the list.

boosted hb is great. strong and hard to take down. but after about the 2nd day, it was all about getting to 18 green on nearly every node. combinations of witch, im40 and hood were used mostly. it became so very boring because of the sheer magnitude of time it took to farm the nodes, and there was 1 fastest way to do it.

revskip

tizian2015 wrote:

revskip wrote:

But saying that you could play when you want in the old system is simply untrue if you were trying for placement, be it top 1-2, top 10, top 20, top 50 or even top 100. All it takes is a slightly more efficient clear to knock you off. In the new system that advantage is negated, if I grind more I place higher. Yes, there still is an optimal clear method which is much more time consuming for the top 10 players and likely the top 100 during new character releases. I'd still prefer the extra grind to the old system where if I can't block off my timer perfectly I lose because someone else can.

If there are people in your bracket who can grind more than you with the new system its the same story. Your theory could only be true if you are playing every pve against the same persons, but you dont. And many people avoid these tests. It depends only about the bracket you join. For example: In the last normal pve i was far away from the 25cp progression but hit place16 in the overall placement.

Sure, but in the new system they beat you because they put in more time/effort. In the old system you could both put in the exact same time and effort and the person who cleared more efficiently in 8 hour increments would get the win.

BIuebell

As a three-star player, the trial before this one was just about right in terms of difficulty. Just reduce the number of clears required (for progression reward & before timer kicks in) to 3, and I'm a happy camper.

Deadpool has silly scaling: 50 on the first half, 140 or so for requireds, and final node starting at 220. Neither the top nor the bottom is much fun. Oh well, at least one gets 2 cp for seven grinds.

Vhailorx

revskip wrote:

tizian2015 wrote:

revskip wrote:

But saying that you could play when you want in the old system is simply untrue if you were trying for placement, be it top 1-2, top 10, top 20, top 50 or even top 100. All it takes is a slightly more efficient clear to knock you off. In the new system that advantage is negated, if I grind more I place higher. Yes, there still is an optimal clear method which is much more time consuming for the top 10 players and likely the top 100 during new character releases. I'd still prefer the extra grind to the old system where if I can't block off my timer perfectly I lose because someone else can.

If there are people in your bracket who can grind more than you with the new system its the same story. Your theory could only be true if you are playing every pve against the same persons, but you dont. And many people avoid these tests. It depends only about the bracket you join. For example: In the last normal pve i was far away from the 25cp progression but hit place16 in the overall placement.

Sure, but in the new system they beat you because they put in more time/effort. In the old system you could both put in the exact same time and effort and the person who cleared more efficiently in 8 hour increments would get the win.

You are technically correct (the best kind of correct!), but it's kind of moot here. Unless you invested a huge amount of time into the game and went for top placement, the difference between optimal and un-optimal play was meaningless. who cares about the difference between finishing 205 and 405? the rewards are effectively the same. Optimal play really only mattered at the highest levels of placement (when the gap between finishing 10th and 11th is quite significant). and that is still true under the new system (in fact its worse since the optimal schedule is now even more irritating).

Revskip, you keep on point to the "play when you want" mechanic as the biggest improvement in the new system. And it is nice psychologically to play each node as much as you want whenever you want. But practically speaking it just doesn't make a difference for placement unless you play enough for a top 50 finish. And that's where the new system is most punishing.

ngoni

Scaling was much improved. Worst part remaining is the ungodly time requirement to play competitively. Players have to sit for 4+ hours at the end of one sub and beginning of the next grinding the old AND the new to maximize points. Either remove placement rewards or go back to the old timer system.

revskip

Vhailorx wrote:

revskip wrote:

tizian2015 wrote:

revskip wrote:

But saying that you could play when you want in the old system is simply untrue if you were trying for placement, be it top 1-2, top 10, top 20, top 50 or even top 100. All it takes is a slightly more efficient clear to knock you off. In the new system that advantage is negated, if I grind more I place higher. Yes, there still is an optimal clear method which is much more time consuming for the top 10 players and likely the top 100 during new character releases. I'd still prefer the extra grind to the old system where if I can't block off my timer perfectly I lose because someone else can.

If there are people in your bracket who can grind more than you with the new system its the same story. Your theory could only be true if you are playing every pve against the same persons, but you dont. And many people avoid these tests. It depends only about the bracket you join. For example: In the last normal pve i was far away from the 25cp progression but hit place16 in the overall placement.

Sure, but in the new system they beat you because they put in more time/effort. In the old system you could both put in the exact same time and effort and the person who cleared more efficiently in 8 hour increments would get the win.

You are technically correct (the best kind of correct!), but it's kind of moot here. Unless you invested a huge amount of time into the game and went for top placement, the difference between optimal and un-optimal play was meaningless. who cares about the difference between finishing 205 and 405? the rewards are effectively the same. Optimal play really only mattered at the highest levels of placement (when the gap between finishing 10th and 11th is quite significant). and that is still true under the new system (in fact its worse since the optimal schedule is now even more irritating).

Revskip, you keep on point to the "play when you want" mechanic as the biggest improvement in the new system. And it is nice psychologically to play each node as much as you want whenever you want. But practically speaking it just doesn't make a difference for placement unless you play enough for a top 50 finish. And that's where the new system is most punishing.

And yet that is exactly what happened in my last PVE with the old system. I came in 51st due only to the fact that someone else played the timer better. I couldn't log on at the pre-determined time and had to double tap the nodes. The person who ended up in 50th got there by less than 150 points which was definitely in the soft spot that I lost due to not hitting things on the timer. It doesn't just make a difference at top 10. It makes a difference at every single choke point on the placement ladder. Top 10, 20, 50, 100 etc.

It's not the only reason I prefer the new system but it is a big one. It also has helped out a ton in being able to play some PVP. With the old system all of my resources healthpack wise were dedicated to getting three clears done at pre-specified times. With the new system I can knock out 90% of my clears in one sitting at the end of the night. Then I have all day to jump in and play PVP in short bursts.

These forums are filled with vets who are spewing vitriol at the new system which creates an echo chamber that makes it seem like these changes are nearly universally despised. I get that, these changes aren't great for people who have been around the longest and something should be done to alleviate that. The facebook groups that I am on that are MPQ based are far different animals, while there is no total consensus on those either the predominant opinion of far more casual players is positive.

slidecage

i say we get something like this


Due to all of the people loving the new PVE this will be the new way PVE will run after the civil war event....



if that is the case bye pve

Vhailorx

revskip wrote:

And yet that is exactly what happened in my last PVE with the old system. I came in 51st due only to the fact that someone else played the timer better. I couldn't log on at the pre-determined time and had to double tap the nodes. The person who ended up in 50th got there by less than 150 points which was definitely in the soft spot that I lost due to not hitting things on the timer. It doesn't just make a difference at top 10. It makes a difference at every single choke point on the placement ladder. Top 10, 20, 50, 100 etc.

finishing just outside of a target reward tier sucks. I speak from experience. But it happens in any tiered reward system, new or old. You say you double tapped nodes; but you could have triple tapped them for that extra 150 points. Unless you are at the very top of the placement curve, where scores are near-optimal and extra points are scarce, there are always enough points left to get what you want by just hitting some nodes again, even with the refresh time.

It's not the only reason I prefer the new system but it is a big one. It also has helped out a ton in being able to play some PVP. With the old system all of my resources healthpack wise were dedicated to getting three clears done at pre-specified times. With the new system I can knock out 90% of my clears in one sitting at the end of the night. Then I have all day to jump in and play PVP in short bursts.

This doesn't make sense to me. There are only ever 10 healthpacks. So if doing 1 pve clear every 8 hours wiped out your healthpack reserves, then how can you possibly do multiple clears all in one sitting? And if a single clear doesn't destroy your healthpacks, then how does PVE interfere with your ability to play PVP? Also, only playing PVP in short bursts is a terrible strategy if you want to collect points (unless those bursts are shield hops). What am I missing about your playstyle?

These forums are filled with vets who are spewing vitriol at the new system which creates an echo chamber that makes it seem like these changes are nearly universally despised. I get that, these changes aren't great for people who have been around the longest and something should be done to alleviate that. The facebook groups that I am on that are MPQ based are far different animals, while there is no total consensus on those either the predominant opinion of far more casual players is positive.

Yup, top 50 pve players are the most upset because the changes are the most negative for them. Demiurge's announcement for the Prodigal Sun test also suggests that weaker rosters have fared better than vet rosters in these changes too. But the bottom line changes (the ones that have NOT changed at all across all three tests) mean more grinding for everyone. A bit more grinding at the bottom, and a lot more grinding at the top. And PVE was already very grindy for meh rewards.

Scaling improvements that stop punishing lower level rosters for having a single 1 cover 5* are a good thing. But they don't have to be linked to a new system that seems designed to decrease the player's time investment:reward value ratio. Same with "play when you want" scoring.

We shouldn't let demiurge distract us with shiny baubles while simultaneously making us play more, harder matches to get exactly the same rewards. We should continue advocating for better rewards, better scaling, better scoring, and a generally better player experience.

madok

Now that test #3 is over, will we get some feedback from the Reds on the results and potential plans moving forward?

Nick441234

I fully expect them to gloss over the complaints about the 7 clears and see all the positivity towards the scaling and implement it as it is going forward.

DJSquiggy

Would have been nice to hear something before the weekend.

Even an update that there will be an update in X days.

ramoramo86

please implement the new pve system. 7 clears at full points, i hate being tied down to a certain time. Give the casual pve'er the freedom while the hardcore pve'ers can still grind it more if they want. win-win

Vhailorx

ramoramo86 wrote:

please implement the new pve system. 7 clears at full points, i hate being tied down to a certain time. Give the casual pve'er the freedom while the hardcore pve'ers can still grind it more if they want. win-win

If you are casual only, then the old system timer was no obstacle. It is entirely possible to finish top 100 or top 50 in every event playing whenever you want. Optimal play and high scores only matter if you want top 20 finishes. The new system is just more grind for everyone.

DTStump

ramoramo86 wrote:

please implement the new pve system. 7 clears at full points, i hate being tied down to a certain time. Give the casual pve'er the freedom while the hardcore pve'ers can still grind it more if they want. win-win

Nah, that is not a win-win in my book because nobody wants to grind more.

Casual players already have the freedom under the old system because they can just ignore the 8-hour timer if they are not going for placement rewards (i.e. they're casual). They're not gaining anything from the new timer system except for the psychological comfort of not having a meaningless timer on the screen.