The slow death of the 3*-4* transition

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  • kalex716
    kalex716 Posts: 184
    Slarow wrote:
    Dragon_Nexus wrote:

    One thing to avoid, if you are not already doing this, don't put ANY iso into character until they are at a cover level where you will actually use them as one of your primary characters. It sounds like you may have been putting ISO into x-23, which you shouldn't until she is ready. If you do, you will waste ISO on characters that may be good eventually, but aren't of use now, and not have ISO to actually boost your new 13 cover characters. Stockpile ISO and spend it all when they hit 13 covers.

    This seems like bad advice. If you have enough covers to complete the weekly DP for that character, you have to match it with an iso expenditure of some sort in order to ensure you can get the cover. Spending 0 Iso in this circumstance, will costs you an LT.
  • kalex716
    kalex716 Posts: 184
    Slarow wrote:
    kalex716 wrote:
    Please clarify this advice. You can't just try different shards.

    Why not?
    kalex716 wrote:
    How do you find out which one is easiest to hit 1k in without actually joining?

    You don't. You try all 5 and see which one is best. It will take less than 2 weeks.

    Or just pick shard 4.

    Thanks. Just wanted to make sure their wasn't some newfound way people track that ****. Shard 4 is where i usually go anyhow!
  • Vhailorx
    Vhailorx Posts: 6,085 Chairperson of the Boards
    kalex716 wrote:
    Slarow wrote:
    Dragon_Nexus wrote:

    One thing to avoid, if you are not already doing this, don't put ANY iso into character until they are at a cover level where you will actually use them as one of your primary characters. It sounds like you may have been putting ISO into x-23, which you shouldn't until she is ready. If you do, you will waste ISO on characters that may be good eventually, but aren't of use now, and not have ISO to actually boost your new 13 cover characters. Stockpile ISO and spend it all when they hit 13 covers.

    This seems like bad advice. If you have enough covers to complete the weekly DP for that character, you have to match it with an iso expenditure of some sort in order to ensure you can get the cover. Spending 0 Iso in this circumstance, will costs you an LT.

    More to the point, the marginal cost of raising a 4* high enough to have a shot at their ddq node is very low. maybe 35k iso? that's a very small investment for the ongoing LT rewards plus the easier 4* essential nodes (and 4* pvp events whenever they become a regular feature of PVP).

    I definitely think it's a mistake to level any old 4* up above 166 in the current iso environment. The return on investment past the top 7-10 4*s just isn't there, so until the iso leveling cost is reduced again it's better to stockpile overall and then strategically use iso on top tier 4*s as you cover them, and to pick off low hanging fruit in the form of easy ddq nodes.
  • Dragon_Nexus
    Dragon_Nexus Posts: 3,701 Chairperson of the Boards
    kalex716 wrote:
    This seems like bad advice. If you have enough covers to complete the weekly DP for that character, you have to match it with an iso expenditure of some sort in order to ensure you can get the cover. Spending 0 Iso in this circumstance, will costs you an LT.

    Would you mind editing your post? You've quoted weirdly and you're attributing a quote to me that I didn't make =)
  • TxMoose
    TxMoose Posts: 4,319 Chairperson of the Boards
    Vhailorx wrote:
    More to the point, the marginal cost of raising a 4* high enough to have a shot at their ddq node is very low. maybe 35k iso? that's a very small investment for the ongoing LT rewards plus the easier 4* essential nodes (and 4* pvp events whenever they become a regular feature of PVP).
    that is exactly how much I put into them to take them to 145. has done me well. from there they boost to 167 and can play with the 3s. problem is that all the older ones will hit during the same stretch and those will take 200K to get up to speed (cho, venom, x23, miles, GR, nova). that's a pretty long pause. but necessary. some will have a tough time, but they all have a boosted chance at it.
  • mohio
    mohio Posts: 1,690 Chairperson of the Boards
    As for the PvP shard thing. Some big alliances never really move slices, so whether you want to call it riding their coattails or whatever, there will be people putting up huge scores in s3 (villains, NJL, others) and s4 (xmen, many others). The point is - try different ones if you find the one that you usually are in is harder than you would like to reach your goal. Another possibility is you are not playing at ideal times. Maybe try climbing earlier than usual when there are generally fewer players playing.

    About leveling 4* - if you have many championed 3* a level 200 4* might not really do anything for you. Additionally, you typically only need level 120-140 to win the crash of titans in DDQ. So, the advice is basically, hold your iso until you can take a char (with good covers) from 130-ish all the way to 240+. Otherwise you will have spent a lot of iso and still not really have a usable character.
  • mpqr7
    mpqr7 Posts: 2,642 Chairperson of the Boards
    I agree with everyone. There are two steps for a 4*. First spend 20K to 35K ISO to get it to around lv 145 to win it's crash of the titans.

    Then, just wait until you can go all the way to champ, or at least high 200s.

    Learn to hoard your ISO with 4*s. Don't be one of those people who levels up here and there, because if you do, then you'll get nowhere.

    But eventually you should champion all of your 3*s. It's nice, because there are no new 3*s coming out, so you'll have a complete set, with no worries about wanting to sell them and start all over again like the 2*s or else never being able to finish it, like the 4*s.
  • Pylgrim
    Pylgrim Posts: 2,328 Chairperson of the Boards
    I want to thank Slarow for for providing lots of useful and polite advice instead of pretending that there's not an issue as many 4* and above players that usually comment in these threads do. Certainly, lots of hard work with calculated approach as he suggests will help alleviate many of the issues I brought up, and speed up progression to a degree.

    However, I want to point two things: First, these issues still exist. They are the developers' responsibility, who clearly didn't think through the repercussions of most of their latest features (5*s, championing, nerfs, etc.) on the 3* tier, arguably, the thick of the player base. The fact that we can work towards reducing the impact of those issues doesn't mean that the devs shouldn't fix them, and the chief purpose of this thread is to keep alive a discussion where hopefully devs can see it and perhaps some day entertain the idea that we're onto something.

    Second, for all the working hard and smart that you suggest to improve the conditions of the transitioning 3* class, the fact remains that the 4* class got a huge boon and that as it is, they can keep increasing the gap on their end by comparatively less effort and expenditure.
  • Vhailorx
    Vhailorx Posts: 6,085 Chairperson of the Boards
    Pylgrim wrote:
    I want to thank Slarow for for providing lots of useful and polite advice instead of pretending that there's not an issue as many 4* and above players that usually comment in these threads do. Certainly, lots of hard work with calculated approach as he suggests will help alleviate many of the issues I brought up, and speed up progression to a degree.

    However, I want to point two things: First, these issues still exist. They are the developers' responsibility, who clearly didn't think through the repercussions of most of their latest features (5*s, championing, nerfs, etc.) on the 3* tier, arguably, the thick of the player base. The fact that we can work towards reducing the impact of those issues doesn't mean that the devs shouldn't fix them, and the chief purpose of this thread is to keep alive a discussion where hopefully devs can see it and perhaps some day entertain the idea that we're onto something.

    Second, for all the working hard and smart that you suggest to improve the conditions of the transitioning 3* class, the fact remains that the 4* class got a huge boon and that as it is, they can keep increasing the gap on their end by comparatively less effort and expenditure.

    Even though I disagree with Slarow's arguments, I agree that Slarow has been a good advocate for the opposing position. Constructive discussion is always better than name calling and internet flame. I hope my posts haven't read as ad hominem attacks.

    Also, Pylgrim, I don't know that we should leap to the conclusion that demiurge/d3 didn't know what they were doing with the 5*/champion changes. improving the game experience for the minority class of players who pay significant amounts of money is a classic strategy in freemium gaming. It is usually accompanied by reduced entry barriers for very new players and a lack of interest in the middle class. Financially this makes sense in the short term. a very small group of whales pays for most of the dev costs. But those whales need a large group of noobs to curb-stomp (so they feel powerful and see a return on their investment in the game). So the game also needs to keep bring new players in to serve as fodder for the whales.

    By contrast, veteran middle class players who stick around and don't spend a lot of cash are of relatively less value (not zero value, but less value). So we shouldn't be surprised when the devs make changes that favor newbies and whales, but disadvantage the middle class. And I don't think we should just assume that it happened by mistake either.
  • Cousin Simpson
    Cousin Simpson Posts: 1,086 Chairperson of the Boards
    Vhailorx wrote:
    Constructive discussion is always better than name calling and internet flame.

    That's what your mom said.
  • HaywireII
    HaywireII Posts: 568 Critical Contributor
    Slarow wrote:
    kalex716 wrote:
    Please clarify this advice. You can't just try different shards.

    Why not?
    kalex716 wrote:
    How do you find out which one is easiest to hit 1k in without actually joining?

    You don't. You try all 5 and see which one is best. It will take less than 2 weeks.

    Or just pick shard 4.

    I'm pretty sure I'm in slice 4 (ends Friday 3/11 at Midnight EST) and top 10 is 634 to 414 points. Not sure how anyone is going to hit 1k let alone me.
  • Vhailorx
    Vhailorx Posts: 6,085 Chairperson of the Boards
    HaywireII wrote:
    Slarow wrote:
    kalex716 wrote:
    Please clarify this advice. You can't just try different shards.

    Why not?
    kalex716 wrote:
    How do you find out which one is easiest to hit 1k in without actually joining?

    You don't. You try all 5 and see which one is best. It will take less than 2 weeks.

    Or just pick shard 4.

    I'm pretty sure I'm in slice 4 (ends Friday 3/11 at Midnight EST) and top 10 is 634 to 414 points. Not sure how anyone is going to hit 1k let alone me.

    Don't judge by off-season events. Scoring is depressed as all the whales take a break. Especially when an old 4* is the reward. Slice 4 is the highest scoring slice. More action so you will get hit more, but you will also have more high point targets.
  • Vhailorx
    Vhailorx Posts: 6,085 Chairperson of the Boards
    Cousin Simpson wrote:
    Vhailorx wrote:
    Constructive discussion is always better than name calling and internet flame.

    That's what your mom said.

    I don't know if my original had enough sexual innuendo to support a "that's what your mom said" joke. Points for effort though?
  • Cousin Simpson
    Cousin Simpson Posts: 1,086 Chairperson of the Boards
    Vhailorx wrote:
    Cousin Simpson wrote:
    Vhailorx wrote:
    Constructive discussion is always better than name calling and internet flame.

    That's what your mom said.

    I don't know if my original had enough sexual innuendo to support a "that's what your mom said" joke. Points for effort though?

    What do you expect from a lazy zing, you doo-doo head?
  • Dragon_Nexus
    Dragon_Nexus Posts: 3,701 Chairperson of the Boards
    Vhailorx wrote:
    Points for effort though?

    Now that IS what your mom said.
  • Vhailorx
    Vhailorx Posts: 6,085 Chairperson of the Boards
    Dragon_Nexus wrote:
    Vhailorx wrote:
    Points for effort though?

    Now that IS what your mom said.

    Well played sir or madam! icon_e_smile.gif
  • xidragonxi
    xidragonxi Posts: 253 Mover and Shaker
    Vhailorx wrote:
    HaywireII wrote:
    Slarow wrote:
    kalex716 wrote:
    Please clarify this advice. You can't just try different shards.

    Why not?
    kalex716 wrote:
    How do you find out which one is easiest to hit 1k in without actually joining?

    You don't. You try all 5 and see which one is best. It will take less than 2 weeks.

    Or just pick shard 4.

    I'm pretty sure I'm in slice 4 (ends Friday 3/11 at Midnight EST) and top 10 is 634 to 414 points. Not sure how anyone is going to hit 1k let alone me.

    Don't judge by off-season events. Scoring is depressed as all the whales take a break. Especially when an old 4* is the reward. Slice 4 is the highest scoring slice. More action so you will get hit more, but you will also have more high point targets.

    Can confirm, i'm in slice 4 and just hit 1100. I'll do a hop to hopefully 1300 in the next hour.
    I'm a bad example in this event though. I'm running champ 3* IM40, champ 4* Thor, and a level 315 OML. It's my first time trying OML in PVP. IM40 and Thor are doing all the work while OML soaks up the damage and saves me health packs. I'm also in like three Line chats to coordinate.

    More to the point of the topic, why does anyone expect the transition between play-classes to be of any certain speed? In a game where progression is 60% luck and 40% effort (generously), progression is going to be slow. I'm on day 850-something and just got my OML up and running to the point where I want to try him in PVP like 4 days ago.
  • jredd
    jredd Posts: 1,387 Chairperson of the Boards
    STOPTHIS wrote:
    I'm really glad this is being brought up. I think a lot of regular posters around here are further in transition and often overlook the struggles those of us coming behind them are facing. Over the past 3 seasons I've only pulled 11 4* from non-legendary tokens. The 4* transition is still wildly dependent on luck and a single cover at 1000 in PVP doesn't do much for us sitting at around lvl 166. As were nearing 30 4* characters I hope we really need something on a DDQ level (and I don't just mean one node every 5 days) to help with the slow transition.

    I really can't imagine what a newer or brand new player would be thinking looking at the road ahead.

    i think i've maybe pulled 2-3 4* from non legendary tokens. period. i'm on day 480. 11 in 3 seasons is impressive.
  • jimstarooney
    jimstarooney Posts: 576 Critical Contributor
    4 star transition is coming along nicely.i have had a lot of covers compared to what it was before,since the introduction of legendaries, cp,dpd etc.
    The iso needed to max them however is crazy!Every 1 of my 4 stars is decently covered but i fear apart from dpd and the occasional pve i will never get to play with most of them in all their glory.
  • Quebbster
    Quebbster Posts: 8,070 Chairperson of the Boards
    Slarow wrote:
    You don't. You try all 5 and see which one is best. It will take less than 2 weeks.

    To clarify, most players don't jump from slice to slice between events, so when you find a slice that suits you well you can stay there and expect similar results later.
    The Monday-Wednesday PvP may be an exception due to the 12 hour offset in end times.

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