The slow death of the 3*-4* transition

MaxxPowerz

Still waiting to receive word on the proposed scaling improvement before I go getting carried away leveling up my 4* roster. I don't want to break PVE, which is my main source of iso, just so I can place higher in PVP.

What's a good level to shoot for when leveling up your 4* characters if you still want to compete in PVE? It would be nice to get some PVP rewards on the side, but I can't lean on a handful of 4* characters to compete in PVE. I would still like to put my 3* roster to use, which admittedly only half of which is max leveled.

Slarow

SnowcaTT wrote:

Match-3 is hard to indefinitely enjoy when you fall behind those that are progressing faster than you, or there is half of the game that you don't have access to.

I understand what Slarow is saying (PVE = lots of CP/LT's)...but I also understand what that requires. If I had no family, no job, no other hobbies, and didn't mind not sleeping 8 consecutive hours ever, I could hit PVE for an hour three times a day, and three hours one of those three. PVE is a way to get into the 4* transition, but it's also a way to burn out as you get out of the 3* transition. Lots of vets just can't take doing those same PVE nodes over, and over, and over again as they get into the second year of the game.

You don't need to play that hardcore to hit max prog. I run the 5pm end time pve's. I run through each node twice once the kids are in bed (~8pm), and then sometime in the afternoon, before 5pm, I run through each node once, then go for the CP if I have not already got them both. I always hit max prog on the last day.

SnowcaTT wrote:

ISO is definitely another big hold-up. After champion day I had enough covers to be able to (probably) DDQ 4* all of the characters were out at that time. But make them PVP usable? Hah! I have thirteen sitting at a good DDQ level (172), the bulk of them could be leveled...once I find that ISO.

Leveling 4*'s for DDQ may not be the optimal strategy. If you took the ISO from those 13 sitting at 172, you probably could have maxed out 2-3 4*'s Sure, you would miss a few LT's, but you would be in a much better place to hit 1.3k and sail through PVE with those extra 4* maxed out.

DaveR4470

Slarow wrote:

Are you hitting PVE max prog?

Already answered....

I'm sure the progression legendaries would help if I had the sort of time needed to clear every stage of every event at least three times.

Slarow wrote:

Are you saving CP for JG/HB covers?

Of course not. That would be supremely idiotic in my situation.

-- I'd need 960 CP to fully cover Jean. That's 38 (or 48) legendaries. With those 48, I could theoretically half-cover Spidey or OML, besides fleshing out a bunch of other 4*s. Leaving aside the fact that it would probably take me two years to accumulate that many CP, it makes no sense to spend CP on covers unless you need only one or two to max out the char or a key skill.

-- My HB is 2/1/0. CP leveling isn't even an option until I pull a blue cover, as HB's blue is kind of important as a feeder of his red. And then I'd need 1680 CP to max him if I got that blue. 67 or 84 LTs.

Also, pursuant to your ISO point in your other post -- I agree with you totally; don't put ISO into a char you're not going to use. However... right now, all the characters I use are maxed, and the characters who need ISO -- my 5*s -- will screw up my scaling if I actually level them. (And the 5*s I have are not covered well enough to carry a team individually.) So I'm leveling my 3*s as it's the most direct way for me to get LTs right now.

Slarow

MaxxPowerz wrote:

Still waiting to receive word on the proposed scaling improvement before I go getting carried away leveling up my 4* roster. I don't want to break PVE, which is my main source of iso, just so I can place higher in PVP.

What's a good level to shoot for when leveling up your 4* characters if you still want to compete in PVE? It would be nice to get some PVP rewards on the side, but I can't lean on a handful of 4* characters to compete in PVE. I would still like to put my 3* roster to use, which admittedly only half of which is max leveled.

1) don't put ISO into 4*'s until they are ready to actually be used as a primary character in PVE or PVP, or until you have the covers and ISO to get them all the way to 270.

2) Don't worry about 4*'s affecting your PVE scaling. It takes the average of your top 3 characters, and your 3* boosted chars are already in the range of 4*'s, so it won't change much.

fight4thedream

STOPTHIS wrote:

I'm really glad this is being brought up. I think a lot of regular posters around here are further in transition and often overlook the struggles those of us coming behind them are facing. Over the past 3 seasons I've only pulled 11 4* from non-legendary tokens. The 4* transition is still wildly dependent on luck and a single cover at 1000 in PVP doesn't do much for us sitting at around lvl 166. As were nearing 30 4* characters I hope we really need something on a DDQ level (and I don't just mean one node every 5 days) to help with the slow transition.

I really can't imagine what a newer or brand new player would be thinking looking at the road ahead.

As a player well past the 4* transition, I don't think it is so much a matter of overlooking but that it's a non-issue for us (the end game has its own problems that preoccupies us lol). Obviously I can't speak for everyone past the transition, but honestly there is not much insight we can shed into the issue since we benefit from the change. With that being said, I do think 3* should be able to punch above their weight class to some degree when buffed in order to help those still trying to progress.

Pylgrim has really outlined well the problem facing the 3*-4* transition and not that it means anything but I support a re-assessment of the current champion, rewards and buff system to help ease the transition.

Bulls wrote:

If every malcontent that waste so much time on writing how bad it is would spend half of that time actually playing then their problem with progression would be way smaller. Also seems like a lot of ppl put so much emphasis on progressing, transitioning and whatnot instead of actually enjoying what mpq really is - a match-3 game.

As probably the person with the longest written post on this forum (cue shameless plug: viewtopic.php?f=7&t=37506), I find your assertion both absurd and amusing but I am happy to know there are players that are satisfied with just matching 3 tiles away. Just keep in mind there are different ways to play and enjoy the game; no need to knock on others to enjoy it, right?

Slarow

DaveR4470 wrote:

-- I'd need 960 CP to fully cover Jean. That's 38 (or 48) legendaries. With those 48, I could theoretically half-cover Spidey or OML, besides fleshing out a bunch of other 4*s. Leaving aside the fact that it would probably take me two years to accumulate that many CP, it makes no sense to spend CP on covers unless you need only one or two to max out the char or a key skill.

-- My HB is 2/1/0. CP leveling isn't even an option until I pull a blue cover, as HB's blue is kind of important as a feeder of his red. And then I'd need 1680 CP to max him if I got that blue. 67 or 84 LTs.

1) How many championed 3*'s do you have?
2) What are your top 5 4*'s as far as total covers owned?

Arphaxad

I am a strong 3* players with a developing 4* roster. I think the progress is at a perfect pace. Sure, it takes time, but that is part of the fun of the game. Championing and CP rewards have only made the game better. Sorry the OP is not as happy with the transition, but I applaud D3 for the great job they have done to improve the game and to make it entertaining.

DaveR4470

Slarow wrote:

1) How many championed 3*'s do you have?

23

2) What are your top 5 4*'s as far as total covers owned?

5/5/1 Lady Thor and 5/3/3 Xforce (both of which I've kept at level 200 for now), a 5/2/3 Fury (188), and then you drop all the way down to Jean at 1/1/5 and ProfX at 3/1/3. Carnage and Fisk are in the 5-cover-ish range, and then you're down in the 1-2-3 cover zone for everyone else.

Slarow

DaveR4470 wrote:

Slarow wrote:

1) How many championed 3*'s do you have?

23

2) What are your top 5 4*'s as far as total covers owned?

5/5/1 Lady Thor and 5/3/3 Xforce (both of which I've kept at level 200 for now), a 5/2/3 Fury (188), and then you drop all the way down to Jean at 1/1/5 and ProfX at 3/1/3. Carnage and Fisk are in the 5-cover-ish range, and then you're down in the 1-2-3 cover zone for everyone else.

Hmmm.... yeah not great. Looking at your numbers, my guess is that before championing, you had very little as far as 4*. Those that went into championing with rosters like yours are now (as I did) spent 6-12 months before championing floating at top 3* level. You most likely will need a similar amount of time to get to usable 4* land. You should max either xforce or lthor asap. xforce with ironfist, or lthor with IM40. PVE is a great source of ISO and cp's, I would pull classics until you get someone close (11-12), then finish them off with direct cp purchase. Shoot for 1k on the PVP's where the 1k is a top tier 4*, and save your HP on those that aren't.

MaxxPowerz

Slarow wrote:

MaxxPowerz wrote:

Still waiting to receive word on the proposed scaling improvement before I go getting carried away leveling up my 4* roster. I don't want to break PVE, which is my main source of iso, just so I can place higher in PVP.

What's a good level to shoot for when leveling up your 4* characters if you still want to compete in PVE? It would be nice to get some PVP rewards on the side, but I can't lean on a handful of 4* characters to compete in PVE. I would still like to put my 3* roster to use, which admittedly only half of which is max leveled.

1) don't put ISO into 4*'s until they are ready to actually be used as a primary character in PVE or PVP, or until you have the covers and ISO to get them all the way to 270.

2) Don't worry about 4*'s affecting your PVE scaling. It takes the average of your top 3 characters, and your 3* boosted chars are already in the range of 4*'s, so it won't change much.

I'm am tempted to put some iso into my 4stars because I would like for them to be able to compete in the 4* DDQ, but you do make a good point about the scaling in regards to boosting.

firethorne

Vhailorx wrote:

(1) As others have pointed out, max 3* teams can no longer always hit 1k in PVP. With weaker 3*s and MUCH stronger 4*s, it takes a decent bit of luck and 1-3 shield hops even when a good 3* team is boosted for the week.

This very much sounds like my situation. I have all 3*s full covered, about half fully leveled and championed, and getting more done as fast as the quick as molasses flow of ISO will allow. But, the idea that this means 1k progression is guaranteed is absurd.

Perhaps I'm getting totally screwed over since I've drawn 2 OMLs, a Silver Surfer, and a Phoenix. I don't have any maxed 4*s. But i see max 4* opponents fairly early on, and see fairly well covered 5*s before hitting 1000.

And beyond that, the release of new characters simply is far quicker than my ability to collect them. I'll get one here and there, but it isn't like my single Venom or Spider Gwen cover is helping me at all. It is just a place I have to spend HP that, at the rate I'm going, won't be of any real use for over a year.

And, with each additional cover they add, the chances of me drawing something I actually want gets smaller and smaller.

Slarow

firethorne wrote:

Vhailorx wrote:

(1) As others have pointed out, max 3* teams can no longer always hit 1k in PVP. With weaker 3*s and MUCH stronger 4*s, it takes a decent bit of luck and 1-3 shield hops even when a good 3* team is boosted for the week.

This very much sounds like my situation. I have all 3*s full covered, about half fully leveled and championed, and getting more done as fast as the quick as molasses flow of ISO will allow. But, the idea that this means 1k progression is guaranteed is absurd.

Perhaps I'm getting totally screwed over since I've drawn 2 OMLs, a Silver Surfer, and a Phoenix. I don't have any maxed 4*s. But i see max 4* opponents fairly early on, and see fairly well covered 5*s before hitting 1000.

What shard?

Cousin Simpson

I'm mostly with Slarow here. I'm passed day 655 recently (yay, yellow SG cover -_-), and I'm firmly in the 3 => 4 transition. I had a piddling 4* roster with several wholly missing characters before championing, but ever since then (and also getting into a better alliance) I've been able to fill out my 4* squad.

That said, I mostly focus on PVE; I'll get to 2000 in the Simulator but for all other PVPs I've been hitting 300 and stopping. PVE has been, for me, a reliable source of legendaries, and I'm nowhere near as hardcore as other PVE-exclusive players (i.e. my best month for getting LTs gave me a big whopping 17). DDQ4 has also been a great source (the first cycle I beat it 4 times, this time I've beaten all but two so far) of LTs, though of course that brings up a chicken/egg argument which I'll concede for now.

But because I don't worry about PVP, I don't feel the sting of an under-leveled 4* quite as much, since if they're essential in PVE, they're also boosted. And if they're severely under-covered and/or under-leveled, my 3*s can still carry my one-cover wonders. All told, I do pretty well at PVE -- hardly amazingly, as I'm actually quite happy if I finish in the top 100 or 150 -- but enough so that my XFDP, whom I didn't even have in his first DDQ -- is now 4/4/4, albeit only at level 133.

DragonNexus (I think) is right that getting specific 4* covers is still as a frustrating and/or time-consuming experience, but comparing my roster before and after championing still amazes me, and I'm unduly proud of this achievement in a silly match-3 game.

DaveR4470

Slarow wrote:

Hmmm.... yeah not great. Looking at your numbers, my guess is that before championing, you had very little as far as 4*. Those that went into championing with rosters like yours are now (as I did) spent 6-12 months before championing floating at top 3* level. You most likely will need a similar amount of time to get to usable 4* land. You should max either xforce or lthor asap. xforce with ironfist, or lthor with IM40. PVE is a great source of ISO and cp's, I would pull classics until you get someone close (11-12), then finish them off with direct cp purchase. Shoot for 1k on the PVP's where the 1k is a top tier 4*, and save your HP on those that aren't.

Bingo. You hit the nail on the head. Pre-championing, I could run some combination of Cage/Fist/SW in PvP and, if the featured char was compatible, reasonably challenge for 1000 with a little bit of work and good timing and luck. Now? Not so much. The 3* damage changes significantly slow down 3* PvP play, so the match time vs. exposed time calculus changes a lot, and once I'm in the 600-700 range, I'm more likely to get hit for more points than I can win in a given period of time. The biggest advantage of a Jeanbuster team isn't really the power, it's their speed at dispensing that power.

Also correct: pre-championing I had Xforce as my only remotely usable 4* (although Fury and Lthor were close).

And your advice is pretty much what I've been doing.... so that's good to hear. (Lthor/IM40 have proven to be board-sensitive, though -- if there is a yellow shortage early on, you can run into trouble.)

SnowcaTT

Slarow wrote:

Leveling 4*'s for DDQ may not be the optimal strategy. If you took the ISO from those 13 sitting at 172, you probably could have maxed out 2-3 4*'s Sure, you would miss a few LT's, but you would be in a much better place to hit 1.3k and sail through PVE with those extra 4* maxed out.

For most, that's what I would recommend. I have Jean/HB/Cyc champed, so I'm more in the "How do I get the impossible to get 5*'s?" camp, and figure DDQ is one method.

Which brings up another point that I can totally understand the 4* transitioners on - with three good 4*'s maxed (and a couple not as good 4*'s maxed) I certainly had a harder time simply -hitting- 1K last season. It was my first season in awhile without Line, so I only hit 1300 once. There are just to many people out there with great 5*'s at the top now - often shoving folks that need the 4*'s out of the way as they go.

[Yet another reason to split PVP's, and have no 5*'s in the event where 4*'s are the rewards]

Having those max 4*'s certainly has helped - but then you have to get lucky in 5*'s. That is the unfortunate "next" step - you can do well and get lucky and max some good 4*'s, but you can only do the "get lucky" part into 5* range. As more folks get them, it will be harder and harder to do -that- transition as well.

XandorXerxes

There are also those of us who find PvE to be nothing but a repetitive drudge (Gauntlet not included). I don't want to be chained to my desk for another 1.5-2 hours a day (Steam player). Once I realized PvE was dictating my life (do I do things after work? Before work? Wake up early / stay up late?) I gave it up, and it was... refreshing.

I'll give your double-tap +1 method a go and see how it works for me... but last time I tried to get back into PvE I made it one sub. And 7 day PvEs... oye.

Warbringa

Day 450 player that has spent around $200-$250 on the game in that time (mainly HP for roster slots and one Stark Salary this December that was used to buy some 4* covers before the change).

I have quit playing PvE or PvP competitive due to the factors outlined in these posts. I don't feel that I am progressing. I understand that the game gets better when you have 4* as many players mention but I am way, way far off from that at the current progression rate. Playing 3 hours a day (mainly PvE with some PvP thrown in and DDQ) I am getting at best, an average of 2 4* covers a week and that will take forever to get a useful 4* character, not even counting the iso to level them.

I have recently made the decision to just play DDQ from here on out and sometimes play LR and PvP mainly for the ISO since the 1000 cover reward is very, very difficult for me to obtain. The only reason I keep playing at all is to continue to get iso and Shield Supply rewards some day on the hope that the devs make a change in the future to correct the system when they understand how much they have slowed the 3-4* transition by nerfing 3* ability to compete and removing cover buying through HP. I love the game but I will not spend significant time (and no more money) on it any longer.

kalex716

Slarow wrote:

Tryke wrote:

Also, try different shards. It may make more sense to go to a shard that isn't ideal for you time-wise, but is much easier to hit 1k as it is more populated.

Please clarify this advice. You can't just try different shards. You have to commit to one without knowledge of what the pool you are going to end up in is like. How do you find out which one is easiest to hit 1k in without actually joining? If this is knowledge gained from Line, or just mucking around and lucking into one, forget about it being useful to most player.

Slarow

kalex716 wrote:

Please clarify this advice. You can't just try different shards.

Why not?

kalex716 wrote:

How do you find out which one is easiest to hit 1k in without actually joining?

You don't. You try all 5 and see which one is best. It will take less than 2 weeks.

Or just pick shard 4.

kalex716

Slarow wrote:

Vhailorx wrote:

Your statement that direct cover purchases are no longer an antidote is the false mindset which is getting people discouraged about 4* progression. I wish I had the ability to do this 9 months ago when I was sitting with a 10 cover HB for 6 months, stuck squarely in 3* land with no ability to get myself out.

Consider yourself in the minority. Smarter users bought their way out of that hole far sooner than you did..