The slow death of the 3*-4* transition

Pylgrim

I dug around to find this thread https://d3go.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=34273&hilit=transition. Dating almost 5 months ago, it was one of the many threads back then pointing out that the 3*-4* transition was advancing at a glacial pace because the randomness of pulls from packs. Later in the thread I realise that the biggest problem with this is that besides random pulls there were no other venues to get 4*s other than earning the PVP 1k reward, and that that was way too little for a healthy progression.

So what did Demiurge to address that problem in the last 5 months? Let's start with the positives:

-It is now possible to buy Legendary tokens for 20 CP. Depending on your commitment and expenditure (and that of your alliance mates), you can buy 1-3 classic LTs per week (note that I'm not counting the 25 CP at 1.3k in PVP as that something that /most/ 4* transitioners cannot hit.) They are still random pulls, but at least there's a small increment in the amount of draws, which may alleviate runs of bad luck.
-Every PVE now rewards 4*s for top 10 or higher. Obviously this means that only a handful of the hundreds if no thousands of 4* transitioners will increase their progression speed, but it needs to be mentioned... With the caveat that many of those top 10 positions are actually being taken by solid 4* players seeking champion covers for their already maxed characters.

What about the negatives?

-Boosted 3*s were nerfed, boosted 4*s were buffed and more 4*s are now boosted every week. All this means that for your average 4* transitioner (with a bunch of maxed 3*s and poorly-covered and levelled 4*s) it's much more difficult to reach 1k in PVP than before, risking to miss the chance at the one and only venue of certain progression that the game offers to 4* transitioners.
-Championing. What the whaaat? Isn't championing meant to make our 3*s stronger, to be able to better fight the tier above? That's how it looked on paper. In practice, the blanket nerf for boosted levels for 3*s means that our characters only will start becoming comparatively stronger than they were pre-championing around the 50 additional covers mark. Moreover, the fact that 4* players can easily achieve the 25 CP at 1.3k in PVP, which is also becoming the lower mark for top 25 placement, means that generally speaking, 4* players will champion their 3* and 4*s much faster than transitioners will champion their 3*s.
-4* covers were made no longer sold for HP. This greatly benefited those who spent money in the past to advance their rosters as the players of today that would wish to do the same, don't have that same option to catch up. Or well, they have it in CP, but that's prohibitively more expensive.

So there you have it. When players pointed out that the 4* transition was ailing, we were only given a couple of band-aids, followed by three crippling blows. Now, every passing day the gap between transitioners and established 4* players become bigger and bigger. This happens as a result of most of the progressing options being hidden as rewards for events where they have to compete against each other, with the established 4* players grabbing most of them, unsurprisingly due their stronger (and buffed) rosters. If it was ailing 5 months ago, now it's clearly dying.

thanos8587

well said.

the only way to win is not to play.

im seriously considering it.

and even if you do get the covers theres not enough iso to do anything with them.

Lemminkäinen

I do agree with your general sentiment 100% and I'm really thankful to you, Pylgrim, that you keep pointing these things out in an eloquent way. Thank you!

But I just wish to note that there is one other avenue of (semi)-guaranteed 4-star covers, which is championing 3-stars. Of course it's a really long road and won't help much in the transition but just in the interest of thoroughness, I thought I should mention them.

Bowgentle

I'd just like to chime in and say that the 4* transition is advancing at a rapid clip compared to the 5* transition.

At least you're guaranteed 3 4* covers at 1K per week.

5*s? No such luck.

Magic

I am full on 4* transitioning player with no usable 5*. I climb to 1k when I care enough to do it (I have maxed Hulkbuster - that helps) and 1,3 is not attainable due to high HP cost for shields and time consuming shield hop coordination (I refuse to use line to coordinate so I don't get to eat cupcakes).

I have been tracking my 4* progression for 4 month now (viewtopic.php?f=7&t=36639&p=484684&hilit=+odds#p484684). The latest results are not yet in (still have 5 days of tokens to track) but in 4 months i have earned or pulled ~100 useful 4* covers. That is almost at cover per day rate. I have no iso to use them but the cover flow is fairly good for me.

To put me in perspective - i go for 1k maybe 4-5 times per season. I don't attend buyers clubs (i am f2p at this point - I have invested maybe 50$ but long time ago) and my alliance (hello from the Lazy Surfers Pylgrim) seldom buys anything (maybe 10 CP per season in total?). I play PvE sporadically - go for progression reward when it's 3-4 days, only CP when it's 7 and I try to be top50 in new releases. Managed to get top 10 maybe twice in last half a year - don't like the grind.

As you see I don't "over" do it and yet i get good progression. I was lucky enough to have some covers for top toons like Hulkbuster (had to buy one or two red when it was allowed). And I expect to get more and more doubles as I progress. Still 0,83 cover per day over 4 months is a decent clip.

Wolarsen

by Magic » Thu Mar 10, 2016 1:31 pm

As you see I don't "over" do it and yet i get good progression. I was lucky enough to have some covers for top toons like Hulkbuster.

That is exactly the dough; you need luck to start rolling, and once rolling you start to get covers way easier. It is very hard to progress with only 3*, even with a full roster of them.

From Pylgrim:
-Championing. What the whaaat? Isn't championing meant to make our 3*s stronger, to be able to better fight the tier above? That's how it looked on paper.

True. I went crazy and championed all but 5 3*, and found out that in midterm they will be NOT as useful as i had expected. I recently have pumped ISO in my best 4* (Thoress, 250 now) and she helps me a lot more than all the buffed 3*.

jredd

Bowgentle wrote:

I'd just like to chime in and say that the 4* transition is advancing at a rapid clip compared to the 5* transition.

At least you're guaranteed 3 4* covers at 1K per week.

5*s? No such luck.

guaranteed 4* covers at 1K?

if you can get there i guess. not withstanding the fact it takes a few solid, maxed and levelled 4* characters to get to 1000. i've never gotten higher than 940 with a 3* lineup.

ammenell

i have a bunch of maxed/champed 3*s and cracked 1k 3 times now.
shield at around 800 and start skipping until a cupcake shows up.

i just start to get the hang of shield hopping, and wasted a lot of HP because of my inexperience, but it gets better.

but its a long road, my 3*s are mostly finished, my best 4*s have 8-9 covers. if the right cover shows up, im willing to shield hop to get my first 4* in a playable state.
its a combination of effort, hp and plain luck - if there are not enough players with 2k+ points in my slice or i cant find cupcakes im out of luck

gigatilburg29

The frustration about this in another topic with about 12 pages of comments without 1 reply of the devs:

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=40271

Right now I only play Deadpool Daily as PVP is impossible for 3* only characters and PVE is almost impossible because of the scaling issue. Even thinking quitting Deadpool Daily as there is no reason to play as I only will earn ISO in a slow rate to max other 3* characters which wil do no good either to futher my progress.

So much potential this game has but done so little with it.

mpqr7

All I can say is that it gets better after you can max out a few 4*s. The first two take forever to win enough covers, and then before you know it, you're being flooded with more 4* covers than you can handle and maybe just possibly a couple useful 5*s...

Dragon_Nexus

Huh, when gathered all together like this, the information is pretty interesting.

I'm definitely feeling it now. I'd been hit harder and more frequently in PvP than before the 3* nerf. Even when going into PvP I see 3* teams and realise they will take just as long but not hit nearly as hard. You become an easy target.

I'm also noticing 4* teams a lot more frequently and earlier. I've completed my 3* roster and am in the process of levelling up some 4*s, but it's far too early to be competitive in PvP. A level 220 boosted Thor is good, but I'm missing out on 10k HP that makes me an easy target. I got a big boost in 4* covers from championing my 3*s, so now I have a few more characters in 4* land that could be considered competitive, but now the issue is ISO.

I'd never fully appreciated just how little ISO there was around until I started levelling up my 4*s. When I complete DDQ and only manage to level them up once it's quite dishearening. When I see 80k ISO will give them 25 levels it's even more so.
Sure, they should have a high cost at this stage, I'm not arguing it should cap out at 2k ISO per level or anything, but the flow of ISO is so slow that I cannot catch up to those who have already pulled ahead.

ammenell

i read a lot about 3* players/4* transitioners having trouble in pvp.

my experience is vastly different - i mostly see 3*s teams, sometimes there is a non-maxed 4* in it, sometimes a 5*, usually with a single cover until im at the 700/750 mark.
after 800 i see all kind of 4* teams - some have a 3* in them, sometimes two or even all three characters are maxed.

so whats the difference to other people who see pure maxed 4* teams immediately after the seed teams?

i dont have a single 5* rostered, but that shouldnt be of significance since when buffed, i have several characters around level 250.
somewhere i read that rostering a 5* is like having a maxed 4* and you get matched with 4* teams accordingly, is that true?

xidragonxi

by mpqr7 » Thu Mar 10, 2016 9:51 am
All I can say is that it gets better after you can max out a few 4*s. The first two take forever to win enough covers, and then before you know it, you're being flooded with more 4* covers than you can handle and maybe just possibly a couple useful 5*s...

This. It took me forever to get my first 4* maxed (Thor), but since then I've managed to max several more and everything starts rolling in. I'm at the point now where I am taking a break from opening legendary tokens until I get more ISO. When I was transitioning, I wouldn't waste HP on shields unless I knew I needed that cover. When Thor got close to 13 covers, I would prioritize any event that had her cover. She was even non-optimal at 4/5/4 for a while until championing her let me spec her correctly, but still got me over the hump.

Pylgrim

Lemminkäinen wrote:

I do agree with your general sentiment 100% and I'm really thankful to you, Pylgrim, that you keep pointing these things out in an eloquent way. Thank you!

But I just wish to note that there is one other avenue of (semi)-guaranteed 4-star covers, which is championing 3-stars. Of course it's a really long road and won't help much in the transition but just in the interest of thoroughness, I thought I should mention them.

Fair enough, needs to be mentioned. The Legendary token on the first championed level is also a good measure.

Bowgentle wrote:

I'd just like to chime in and say that the 4* transition is advancing at a rapid clip compared to the 5* transition.

At least you're guaranteed 3 4* covers at 1K per week.

5*s? No such luck.

I imagine that's the case. While it is undeniably a problem on it's own, it is one experienced by a comparatively much smaller percentage of the player base and it's somewhat justifiable given the small amount of 5* in existence. The problem with the 4* transition is that it's the transition where most players that have been playing for a while find themselves at. Given the increased speed of the 3* transition, people that have been playing a year or so, are already arriving to it, while unlucky 2-year players are /still/ in it. At the stalled pace at which it advances, as long as it is not addressed, more players will be joining it than those finally going through. In the meantime, those who already made it through are progressing ahead comparatively faster.

Magic wrote:

As you see I don't "over" do it and yet i get good progression. I was lucky enough to have some covers for top toons like Hulkbuster (had to buy one or two red when it was allowed). And I expect to get more and more doubles as I progress. Still 0,83 cover per day over 4 months is a decent clip.

As other poster pointed, that "lucky enough" makes all the difference and it was precisely what sparked the creation of the post I linked in the OP, 5 months ago. While you luckily opened HB covers, I opened 9 Invisible Women (after having fully covered her long ago) in a matter of weeks, comprising the majority of my 4* pulls. The result is that I only completed my Hulkbuster a couple weeks ago, after having earned from events every single cover of his except 2. So in the almost a year of HB existence, I only opened 2 of his covers from tokens.

That means that your having a Hulkbuster for several months before I did, simply by chance, made your life in PVP comparatively much easier, meaning that you likely got better rewards in average and opened more tokens, and so, a snowball effect transforms a simple spark of luck into a continuous, permanent and ever-increasing accelerated progression for you, even with your admitted lack of trying.

STOPTHIS

I'm really glad this is being brought up. I think a lot of regular posters around here are further in transition and often overlook the struggles those of us coming behind them are facing. Over the past 3 seasons I've only pulled 11 4* from non-legendary tokens. The 4* transition is still wildly dependent on luck and a single cover at 1000 in PVP doesn't do much for us sitting at around lvl 166. As were nearing 30 4* characters I hope we really need something on a DDQ level (and I don't just mean one node every 5 days) to help with the slow transition.

I really can't imagine what a newer or brand new player would be thinking looking at the road ahead.

hodayathink

While you mentioned championing as a negative because of the nerf, you didn't mention the positive of championing that is adding more CP and legendary tokens (including getting one as soon as you get your first extra cover). And that's ignoring the guaranteed 4 star covers from champion progression (which depend on how easily you can obtain 3* covers, which they also made easier to get in PVE).

rawfsu

Championing has become my only means of survival from here forward. It's a long road, but based on my playing time, it is what it is. I accepted this back when championing started and an LT was the first prize. I can't complain really. Naturally, you work (or pay) for what you get. I'm on Day 700, burnt out on PVE, and can hit 1k in PVP when lucky, usually once a season. I somehow have managed three 5*'s on my roster, Dark Phoenix the only one with 2 covers, so could probably do more if I sold my 5*'s. That's not going to happen. I'm one cover short on LThor of 13 covers, have IW at 11, and Fury at 8. After that, HB has the most at 6. With the nerf of 3*'s, I saw the 3*-4* getting a lot more complicated, but not surprising. D3 has to force you out of 3* land somehow, and this is it. If 3*'s hadn't received the nerf, I wouldn't even much care about 3*-4* transition, but that can't happen. Complacency in this game doesn't work, a fact D3 is obviously well aware of.

XandorXerxes

One other thing to point out:

At 1 guaranteed cover every 2.5 days, it takes over 2 months for the PvP cover cycle to rotate through. That's a year to guarantee 6 covers of any particular 4*. That's not really progress, and as more 4*s are released that's only going to slow down. People starting the game today are likely going to be looking at 3+ years to make the 4* level. Getting in early to any given tier makes an enormous difference.

Monged4life

I've been playing a year now and it never stops amazing me that after a whole damn year of frequent play, I still have no remotely usable 4*. As stated above the gap gets bigger every day and with almost all progression 4* and above being either placement related (competing against 5* rosters...) or random there's little I can do to improve.

Any console or PC game I could buy I would get to experience everything within a few months tops, but after a year of playing this I am no closer to being able to use half of the content (including anything released in the last 6 months...)

I had quit over Christmas quite happily but championing sucked me back in, and as pointed out that was an entirely hollow improvement for 3*s thanks to the Nerf.

The only way to get to enjoy the new toys in this game is to have played it religiously for 2 years previously or to spend literally thousands of pounds/dollars on it, which is an awful game design...

Long story short, I'm done. This game is a chore, and unless you are lucky or foolish enough to be in one of the camps above, you are in for a world of disappointment.

elusive

Monged4life wrote:

I've been playing a year now and it never stops amazing me that after a whole damn year of frequent play, I still have no remotely usable 4*. As stated above the gap gets bigger every day and with almost all progression 4* and above being either placement related (competing against 5* rosters...) or random there's little I can do to improve.

Funny, I was coming in here to post the same thing. My main problem is that events are so tough to place well that I would have to spend money almost every single time if I wanted to score even one four star cover. I think the most I've ever managed to scrape together in a PvP is around 900 points, whereas plenty of others were doubling that. It's gotten to the point where I typically won't play much past DDQ any more, and that event is so randomly tough now that I don't really even look forward to booting the game up.

Slarow

4* acquisition since Championing and PVE CP's went in has exploded in rate.

A mature 3* team can get 3x 4*s a week from PVP 1k. A mature 3* team can get an additional 25 or 50CP from PVE max prog (plus 12-14 CP from nodes), giving you 2-3 additional Classic pulls each week.

Thats 6 4*s/week.

Throw in hitting 1300 (which you can do once you have one or two good 4*'s), and that's an additional 75CP (3 more classic tokens).

So the current pace is 5-6 4*'s/week for 3* teams, and 8-9 4*'s/week for those that can hit 1300.

If you don't have a 4* that can help you hit 1k or 1.3k, then instead of spending the CP from PVE, save them for direct cover purchases. Once you get that 4*, you can shoot for 1k/1.3k