'Boosted' Characters Rebalancing Post-Champions

atomzed

I changed my stance on the 3* nerf. (Pylgrim should be interested in this).

I think they overdid the nerf.

I asked a friend with a sandboxed account to help me get the stats for a max champ 3* and their ability dmg when buffed.

He only have a few characters who is max champ (says a lot when someone with infinite hp who don't even have max champ for all characters).

Here are the stats for a max champ sentry.

Before buff:- level 266 sentry super nova does 1926 base dmg plus 321 dmg per red tile destroyed. That equate to 4815 AOE dmg.

After buff:- level 360 sentry super nova does 3234 based dmg plus 539 dmg per red tile destroyed. That equate to 7985 aoe dmg. (Roughly 1.6x increase in dmg before buff)

Even with a max champ sentry, his aoe dmg deals less than half the hp of a max (non champ) 4*. Meaning that you need 2 cast of super nova to kill a 4*.

Considering that Sentry red has a very bad side effect (self dmg), I would expect it to hit a lot harder. Probably in the range of 9000 dmg.

I still believe that the game should move into a 4* meta, but the nerf has all but make 3* irrelevant even when they are max champ .

Previously I assume when they are max champ and buffed they will hit harder as a non champ 4*. It seems that my assumption is wrong. I admit that.

If there is a change, I hope that they will increase the dmg for 3* by about 25%. They should be more competitive with a 25% dmg instead.

Pylgrim

atomzed wrote:

I changed my stance on the 3* nerf. (Pylgrim should be interested in this).

I think they overdid the nerf.

I asked a friend with a sandboxed account to help me get the stats for a max champ 3* and their ability dmg when buffed.

He only have a few characters who is max champ (says a lot when someone with infinite hp who don't even have max champ for all characters).

Here are the stats for a max champ sentry.

Before buff:- level 266 sentry super nova does 1926 base dmg plus 321 dmg per red tile destroyed. That equate to 4815 AOE dmg.

After buff:- level 360 sentry super nova does 3234 based dmg plus 539 dmg per red tile destroyed. That equate to 7985 aoe dmg. (Roughly 1.6x increase in dmg before buff)

Even with a max champ sentry, his aoe dmg deals less than half the hp of a max (non champ) 4*. Meaning that you need 2 cast of super nova to kill a 4*.

Considering that Sentry red has a very bad side effect (self dmg), I would expect it to hit a lot harder. Probably in the range of 9000 dmg.

I still believe that the game should move into a 4* meta, but the nerf has all but make 3* irrelevant even when they are max champ .

Previously I assume when they are max champ and buffed they will hit harder as a non champ 4*. It seems that my assumption is wrong. I admit that.

If there is a change, I hope that they will increase the dmg for 3* by about 25%. They should be more competitive with a 25% dmg instead.

Thanks for doing this and for admitting your miscalculation, it's appreciated. It's depressing to hear that after gathering 100 additional covers, and waiting until a given 3* is boosted (every 10 PVPs or so, I think?) A 3* character is still not good enough. I seriously hoped that in exchange for screwing us badly for the first half of the championing process, the second half would make it all worth it and make them forces to be reckoned... but not even that?

_Ryu_

atomzed wrote:

I changed my stance on the 3* nerf. (Pylgrim should be interested in this).

I think they overdid the nerf.

I asked a friend with a sandboxed account to help me get the stats for a max champ 3* and their ability dmg when buffed.

He only have a few characters who is max champ (says a lot when someone with infinite hp who don't even have max champ for all characters).

Here are the stats for a max champ sentry.

Before buff:- level 266 sentry super nova does 1926 base dmg plus 321 dmg per red tile destroyed. That equate to 4815 AOE dmg.

After buff:- level 360 sentry super nova does 3234 based dmg plus 539 dmg per red tile destroyed. That equate to 7985 aoe dmg. (Roughly 1.6x increase in dmg before buff)

Even with a max champ sentry, his aoe dmg deals less than half the hp of a max (non champ) 4*. Meaning that you need 2 cast of super nova to kill a 4*.

Considering that Sentry red has a very bad side effect (self dmg), I would expect it to hit a lot harder. Probably in the range of 9000 dmg.

I still believe that the game should move into a 4* meta, but the nerf has all but make 3* irrelevant even when they are max champ .

Previously I assume when they are max champ and buffed they will hit harder as a non champ 4*. It seems that my assumption is wrong. I admit that.

If there is a change, I hope that they will increase the dmg for 3* by about 25%. They should be more competitive with a 25% dmg instead.

Sentry looks this

Nonce Equitaur 2 wrote:

[anchor=sentry3]Sentry (Dark Avengers)[/anchor]
3 Star Rarity (Rare) - (Gold Character) Discussion link. Wiki link.
At Max Level: HP: 10710 Tile damage: 61/79/13/11/70/12/3.0

Supernova - 11 Red AP
The Sentry projects an epic energy blast. Damages the enemy team for 329 before shattering up to 4 random Red tiles. Each tile damages the enemy team for 82 and allies for 82 but does not generate AP. This ability ends the turn.
Level Upgrades

Level 2: Sentry hits the enemy team for 355 damage. Damage to his own team is reduced to 66 damage per tile. Level 3: Sentry hits the enemy team for 378 damage, and destroys 5 Red tiles. Level 4: Sentry hits the enemy team for 428 damage, and destroys 7 Red tiles. Level 5: Sentry hits the enemy team for 494 damage, and destroys 9 Red tiles. Damage to his own team is reduced to 43 damage per tile destroyed. Max Level: Max Level: 1565 + 261 enemies/137 allies

Now with 100 extra covers , he only does nearly 400 + 80 dmg more, thats really depressing. Is there data how much dmg he did before 3* nerf at boosted lvls?

Wolarsen

I still believe that the game should move into a 4* meta, but the nerf has all but make 3* irrelevant even when they are max champ .

Previously I assume when they are max champ and buffed they will hit harder as a non champ 4*. It seems that my assumption is wrong. I admit that.

If there is a change, I hope that they will increase the dmg for 3* by about 25%. They should be more competitive with a 25% dmg instead.

Terrible news Throws the utility of 3* down the sink

Pylgrim

aesthetocyst wrote:

Pylgrim wrote:

atomzed wrote:

I changed my stance on the 3* nerf. (Pylgrim should be interested in this).

I think they overdid the nerf.

I asked a friend with a sandboxed account to help me get the stats for a max champ 3* and their ability dmg when buffed.

He only have a few characters who is max champ (says a lot when someone with infinite hp who don't even have max champ for all characters).

Here are the stats for a max champ sentry.

Before buff:- level 266 sentry super nova does 1926 base dmg plus 321 dmg per red tile destroyed. That equate to 4815 AOE dmg.

After buff:- level 360 sentry super nova does 3234 based dmg plus 539 dmg per red tile destroyed. That equate to 7985 aoe dmg. (Roughly 1.6x increase in dmg before buff)

Even with a max champ sentry, his aoe dmg deals less than half the hp of a max (non champ) 4*. Meaning that you need 2 cast of super nova to kill a 4*.

Considering that Sentry red has a very bad side effect (self dmg), I would expect it to hit a lot harder. Probably in the range of 9000 dmg.

I still believe that the game should move into a 4* meta, but the nerf has all but make 3* irrelevant even when they are max champ .

Previously I assume when they are max champ and buffed they will hit harder as a non champ 4*. It seems that my assumption is wrong. I admit that.

If there is a change, I hope that they will increase the dmg for 3* by about 25%. They should be more competitive with a 25% dmg instead.

Thanks for doing this and for admitting your miscalculation, it's appreciated. It's depressing to hear that after gathering 100 additional covers, and waiting until a given 3* is boosted (every 10 PVPs or so, I think?) A 3* character is still not good enough. I seriously hoped that in exchange for screwing us badly for the first half of the championing process, the second half would make it all worth it and make them forces to be reckoned... but not even that?

You're blurring together 2 things. Atomzed is discussing stats for maxchamped (level 266) 3*s, not buffed 3*s.

This question has been asked and answered many times over.

The point of his post is that maxchamped AND boosted 3*s (i.e. level 360) are not great either. That's what I'm replying to.

Lemminkäinen

Championing is an amazing feature in that it makes getting (even non-four-star) covers fun again. But this gigantic nerf really makes it ring hollow. In the beginning of the thread there were people arguing that this was needed to keep four-stars competitive but really, they nerfed three-stars, made four-stars more powerful and doubled the amount of four-stars boosted each week. And now they are starting four-star PvPs. Were all these really necessary? They utterly neutered the three-star tier by adding more and more and more of these changes at the same time.

atomzed

Nice post aesth!

aesthetocyst wrote:

Well, consider this. First, it's only 1 power. You're judging an entire tier by 1 of its 120 abilities.

I agree that it is single power. I tried to find more reference points but unfortunately I couldn't find more from my network. Aesth, maybe you can try to find more, that will be good.

However, bear in mind that the trend is accelerating, AND that lvl 360 was Sentry's PVE buff. When featured in PVP he will be much higher, and his red hitting much harder.

I didn't realise that pvp boost is higher.
In pvp, he will be level 390. Going by your chart, sentry will hit about 8k-9k?

Lastly, the arbitrary decisions about how good a 3* at whatever level "should" be. Atomzed says 3*s need "25% more damage". Why 25%? Atomzed notes that it takes 2x Sentry Red to kill a 4* when Sentry is at lvl 360. Well, OK. Hmmm. At level 166 it takes more than 2 Reds to kill another lvl 166 3*, or a lvl 166 4*. Why at level 360 should it suddenly be proportionally stronger? It's an AoE, not a focused nuke.

Again, agree that its a arbitrary number. I guess the difference is how I view a champ buff character. He should be strong enough to be lethal... I remember in the past when I faced sentry, a super nova can take away up to 75% of my char health. That was lethal, and I kinda hoping that a max champ buff char will do the same.

It is possible that the dev do not want max champ to be too powerful, and hence they didn't buff them too much. The philosophy could be that the champ should give you good advantage, but not overwhelming power.

If so, I can see the logic in that. However I will be disappointed that after reaching the pinnacle of 3*, my max champ buff character is still considered less dangerous than a top tier 4* char.

It is this disappointment to drive me to make that previous post.

Pylgrim

Thanks for plotting the curve Aes, it does look a little bit better now. However, I think there's still reason to be downcast, as atomsed points out. While there's a lot of arbitrary thinking in the following, I don't think I'm very far from the mark: A 360 3* is way over twice the levels of a normal, maxed 3*... and yet, the total gain of power from a normal Supernova is just, exactly 2x. That's 1.6 from normal + boosted (240) and around only 1.35 from pre-nerf boosted.

"But Pylgrim, 2x is quite a bit, who are you to say that it is not enough?" Two reasons: First, I'd be quite happy with that 2x, if it didn't come at a near-crippling cost through the first half of the championing process (the nerf). The fact that my playstyle and my capability to earn the rewards needed to reliably (i.e. not banking on luck) finish my progression to 4* tier was badly affected for the next... 6? more? months that will take me to go over 50 champion covers, kind of entitled me to believe that afterwards we'd be seeing amazing numbers, not "enough".

Second, and more important is the accelerated, nay, exaggerated way in which 4*s boost. Given the data we have, it seems that in 200 additional levels or so, a 3* merely doubled its damage output. But I've seen how 4*s of the same level (i.e. only 80-90 or so over their max) look: they also doubled (or better) their damage output and HP! What good is to deal almost 8k with Supernova, if 4* opponents of the same level have well over 30k HP each? Moreover, if I, today with my 250-ish boosted 3*s keep seeing those 350+ boosted 4*s, what will MMR give me once I finally get a 360 3*? I'm guessing 450 4*s and 5*s, whose astronomical values will make the damage output of my guys even more pathetic.


TL;DR: 4*s were improved way too highly for 3*s to compete with them, even if they kept pre-nerf values while adding championing. The nerf is a second injury added to the insult that accompanied the first injury and the maximum possible values for a 3* (at 360) are nowhere impressive enough to make up for it.

Warbringa

aesthetocyst wrote:

Well, consider this. First, it's only 1 power. You're judging an entire tier by 1 of its 120 abilities.

Secondly, plot the available numbers:


Plotting the base and total damage by level for Sentry's red, I see that it does, as hoped*, follow the now-familiar, post-R91 S-curve seen in the match damage numbers. Grows as normal from 40 to 166, creeps along to 266, grows quickly again beyond that.

I used straight line segments on this plot because only 4 data points were given, between Wiki's lvl 40 and 166 numbers, and Atomzed's reported numbers for lvl 266 and 360. However, bear in mind that the trend is accelerating, AND that lvl 360 was Sentry's PVE buff. When featured in PVP he will be much higher, and his red hitting much harder.

Lastly, the arbitrary decisions about how good a 3* at whatever level "should" be. Atomzed says 3*s need "25% more damage". Why 25%? Atomzed notes that it takes 2x Sentry Red to kill a 4* when Sentry is at lvl 360. Well, OK. Hmmm. At level 166 it takes more than 2 Reds to kill another lvl 166 3*, or a lvl 166 4*. Why at level 360 should it suddenly be proportionally stronger? It's an AoE, not a focused nuke.

The devs did something interesting with the scaling changes. for 100-110 lvls, from 166 to 275ish, they made match and ability damage growth flatten, while the 3* characters health continues to grow apace, and 4* health actually grows faster. The characters become less deadly to one another. Then, the ability and match damage curves upward, and so does lethality.

______________

* I say "hoped" because I sure hoped it wasn't going to stay flat

Except he was comparing a level 360 character to a normal unboosted 4* at 270. Your example of a 3*166 to 166 doesn't hold water because yes they are the same level. You would expect a 90 level difference to have a significant increase on damage. I agree with you though in that the power used to illustrate the example is less effective than using Cyclops red or another single target damage ability in judging the entire 3* meta. One reason I don't use Sentry is because he is awful, a comparison with a mid to high tier 3* would better serve the comparison.

atomzed

aesthetocyst wrote:

atomzed wrote:

I didn't realise that pvp boost is higher.
In pvp, he will be level 390. Going by your chart, sentry will hit about 8k-9k?

The PVE feature buff is a flat +94 levels. It's really helpful on new characters, but less so as you level them

The PVP feature used to work out to around +75% (40 to 70, 166 to 290), but it has been changed to a sliding scale. The same change that increased the loaner levels. A 40 now buffs to 145, which is HUGE .... but eh %age drops. My lvl 176 DD buffs to 301 (+71%). Someone told me the level that a 266 buffs to when featured .... but I already forgot it. 400-450. 399 would be a 50% buff .... 425 a 60% buff... 440 a 67% buff ...

So the total damage on Sentry's red ... at lvl 400+ ... should be .... a lot. More than 10K.

Ask some whales with lvl 266 Daredevils how his red is looking, and what level he boosts to.

I don't have friends with a max champ DD...

BUT I did manage to find a way to check out the max champ stats... Through TU!

I had a level 266 DD ambush TU, and when buffed it gives a boosted level of 405 (!). So we can safely say that the max buff champ level will be 405.

So here are the stats for aesth

Level 173 ambush 5565 (enemy trigger), 3092 (self trigger)
Level 266 Ambush 6743, 3747
Level 298 Ambush 7627, 4238
Level 355 Ambush 10958, 6087
Level 405 ambush 15340, 8524

I have to say, that the dmg at level 405, is impressive. It is more than double than level 166. Against a 4* the dmg of 15340 is certainly impressive.

So maybe it isn't so bad after all. I will continue to find stats for max champ

Edit: found another data point and added stats for 355

Pylgrim

atomzed wrote:

aesthetocyst wrote:

atomzed wrote:

I didn't realise that pvp boost is higher.
In pvp, he will be level 390. Going by your chart, sentry will hit about 8k-9k?

The PVE feature buff is a flat +94 levels. It's really helpful on new characters, but less so as you level them

The PVP feature used to work out to around +75% (40 to 70, 166 to 290), but it has been changed to a sliding scale. The same change that increased the loaner levels. A 40 now buffs to 145, which is HUGE .... but eh %age drops. My lvl 176 DD buffs to 301 (+71%). Someone told me the level that a 266 buffs to when featured .... but I already forgot it. 400-450. 399 would be a 50% buff .... 425 a 60% buff... 440 a 67% buff ...

So the total damage on Sentry's red ... at lvl 400+ ... should be .... a lot. More than 10K.

Ask some whales with lvl 266 Daredevils how his red is looking, and what level he boosts to.

I don't have friends with a max champ DD...

BUT I did manage to find a way to check out the max champ stats... Through TU!

I had a level 266 DD ambush TU, and when buffed it gives a boosted level of 405 (!). So we can safely say that the max buff champ level will be 405.

So here are the stats for aesth

Level 173 ambush 5565 (enemy trigger), 3092 (self trigger)
Level 266 Ambush 6743, 3747
Level 298 Ambush 7627, 4238
Level 405 ambush 15340, 8524

I have to say, that the dmg at level 405, is impressive. It is more than double than level 166. Against a 4* the dmg of 15340 is certainly impressive.

So maybe it isn't so bad after all. I will continue to find stats for max champ

However, Ambush is also kind of a bad example because it has an astronomically high AP-to-damage ratio to make up for the fact that it will only be triggered by the enemy around once or twice in your lifetime. The self trigger is a bit more useful data point though. It is at 166 not much weaker than Fireball, for the same cost, so we can presume that Fireball at level 405 will deal close to 9k... not too bad I guess, unless my pessimistic prediction about MMR is true and with 405 3*s you'll exclusively see teams of 450 4*s and/or 5*s.

I really wish I hadn't become pessimistic when it comes to this game, but at this point it's a sanity-preserving mechanism.

atomzed

In aestho style, here is the curve for DD ambush.

The data comprises of info from level 40 all the way to level 405 (max champ and buffed).



Purple line refers to the trap dmg.
Green line refers to the self trigger dmg.

It seems like between level 40 to 166, it is a fairly straight progression in terms of dmg.

From 166 onwards, it becomes an exponential curve, where the power increment is lower at lower levels, and much higher at higher levels.

And with regards to pylgrim comment, yeah I agree that DD red is not the best ability for reference. I would have like to see a more direct dmg ability, like Cyclops red or HT red. But alas, no one to help me out for this.

Pylgrim

So, judging by atom's graph, it means that there are really no "break points" but rather that it's a parabolic curve from a given function? I wonder if it's a coincidence or it was plotted intently so the 405 values would be exactly double the values at level 300. However, as far as I can tell, the curve was also plotted so 3*s would hit pre-nerf values at around 50 champion levels, which seems confirmed by max-champed 2*s.

atomzed

aesthetocyst wrote:

[
If we can get more numbers for a few more abilities, perhaps we can confirm such a pattern exists (...or completely blow it apart!).

IF this pattern is consistent, it can be used to judge how all 3* abilities will scale ... an imply there is are similar patterns for the other rarities!

Sentry
Lvl __ Base Dmg __%age __ Tile Dmg __ %age ____ Total Dmg __ %age
_4
405 ... 4400 . . . . 281.2% . . 733 . . . . . . 280.8% . . . 10997 . . . . 281.0%

Well, sentry pvp is coming soon, and I can get my friend to check the buffed dmg at 405.so it will be possible to test our prediction!

Pylgrim

Another data point, going by atom's graph is that damage is at 140% at level 300.

Also, if my numbers are right, pre-nerf 3* abilities reached 150% damage at level 240, for comparison.

atomzed

aesthetocyst wrote:

Magneto
Lvl __ Tile Dmg ___ %age
_40 . . _81 . . . . . . _31.0%
166 . . 261 . . . . . . 100.0%
195 . . 279 . . . . . . 106.9%
246 . . 309 . . . . . . 118.4%
405 . . 731 . . . . . . 280.0%

Magneto
Lvl __ Swap Dmg __ Total ___ %age
_40 . . _224 . . . . . . _1568 . . _31.4%
166 . . _713 . . . . . . _4991 . . 100.0%
195 . . _759 . . . . . . _5313 . . 106.5%
246 . . _844 . . . . . . _5908 . . 118.4%
405 . . 1997 . . . . . . 13979 . . 280.0%

Bingo! Jackpot!

I have the dmg for a level 405 Cmagneto (using max levelled TU as the cheat sheet).

Cmag Red
Level 40 - 81 dmg per tile
Level 166 - 261 dmg per tile
Level 177 - 267 dmg per tile
Level 304 - 378 dmg per tile
Level 405 - 732 dmg per tile

Cmag Blue
Level 40 - 224 dmg per swap
Level 166 - 713 dmg per swa
Level 177 - 733 dmg per swap
Level 304 - 1029 dmg per swap
Level 405 - 1995 dmg per swap

So for 3*, i think we can confidently say that at max champ buffed level, the dmg will be 280% more than the level 166.

Assuming that if the 3* dmg wasn't nerfed, what will the dmg be like? I don't have the actual figure, but assuming it was about 25% nerf.

Pre nerf:- At max champ buffed level, Cmag red will do 912 dmg per tile, which average out to around 9120 dmg. For his blue, he will be doing 2498 dmg per swap, with a max dmg of 17468.

Well, it is definitely very strong. Does that warrant a nerf? I think this is more subjective.

Pylgrim

Thanks atomsed. To answer your last question, would 17k for 10 blue AP have been too much for a 3* power? Right now, from where I'm standing, I'd, like you, entertain the question carefully. However, by the time I finally max-champ a 3*, when maxed or near maxed 5*s will be much more frequent, I'm pretty sure I'll think that 17k is just fair. Especially since a 3* only gets the "featured" bonus buff once every 100 days. 13k will be definitely insufficient, or at least not worth the added hardships I'm experience for the first half of the champion levels.

atomzed

Pylgrim wrote:

Thanks atomsed. To answer your last question, would 17k for 10 blue AP have been too much for a 3* power? Right now, from where I'm standing, I'd, like you, entertain the question carefully. However, by the time I finally max-champ a 3*, when maxed or near maxed 5*s will be much more frequent, I'm pretty sure I'll think that 17k is just fair. Especially since a 3* only gets the "featured" bonus buff once every 100 days. 13k will be definitely insufficient, or at least not worth the added hardships I'm experience for the first half of the champion levels.

I agree that you have an arguable case here.

The developer may feel that the nerf is more in line with the growth trajectory of the 4*.

If possible I will really like to find out the buffed damage for 4*. Then we can do a comparison.

Pylgrim

atomzed wrote:

Pylgrim wrote:

Thanks atomsed. To answer your last question, would 17k for 10 blue AP have been too much for a 3* power? Right now, from where I'm standing, I'd, like you, entertain the question carefully. However, by the time I finally max-champ a 3*, when maxed or near maxed 5*s will be much more frequent, I'm pretty sure I'll think that 17k is just fair. Especially since a 3* only gets the "featured" bonus buff once every 100 days. 13k will be definitely insufficient, or at least not worth the added hardships I'm experience for the first half of the champion levels.

I agree that you have an arguable case here.

The developer may feel that the nerf is more in line with the growth trajectory of the 4*.

If possible I will really like to find out the buffed damage for 4*. Then we can do a comparison.

You mean for a max-champed and boosted 4*? I cannot begin to imagine that but I can tell you that a Rulk boosted to 350 deals over 18k to the opposing team with his green... and 405 Magneto deals 17k to one target (at most)....

madsalad

The damage reduction to maxed 3*s still amazes me. When my boosted Human Torch was doing somewhere between 6-8K with his red and, I think, no does sub-6k, something is wrong.

There was absolutely no reason to blanket nerf the 3* tier. A maxed 3* should be a lot stronger than it is now, and a full blown maxed/championed 3* should be able to go up against a 270 4* in order to try to level some of the playing field.

Is there any hope that the devs will come to their senses? Especially with all this new scaling nonsense going on?