Panda's Card Tier List - Updated for 1.3 Patch

1234579

Comments

  • EDHdad
    EDHdad Posts: 609 Critical Contributor
    White -

    I strongly disagree that Gideon's 2nd and 3rd abilities are not relevant. I probably use the 2nd ability most of all. I'd rather pump +2 / +2 and NOT give my creature "please smash my face on your attack", unless that creature has first strike AND more power than the highest toughness of the opponent. The fact that it costs 12 kind of sucks, but it also means that when you cast it, you probably have at least 2 if not 3 creatures on board, or that you really need to pump someone by 2 right now.

    Murder Investigation - I understand the S rating, but it's only really an S if your other creatures are B's, or when you have a **** ton of other equipment pumping it up. Yes, it's great when your Bonded Construct is killed and becomes a soldier token, but If something just killed your Archangel of Tithes. a 1/1 soldier token probably isn't going to do much good. This used to be top tier when Gideon could give vigilance for 3. Now that it costs 5, this card isn't as good as it was.

    Vryn Wingmare - this was changed in the update. It makes all of your supports cost 6 more when it's on the field, not just the ones which were in your hand previously. It's still good, but unless you are running 0 supports, it's probably not S tier. My impression is that S tier is for unconditional windmill slam into any deck unless you have a very good reason to take it out.

    Stalwart Aven - it's 1 power French vanilla for 10. "Probably not bad" isn't A tier. Put it this way, would you pay 20 for a 4/4 flier? Because that's what you get when you cast 2 of these and it's renowned.

    Iroas' Champion - without rehashing the argument, I'll just say that it's weird that you rate this differently for white and red. But at least you didn't give it a C.

    Mighty Leap - I don't disagree with B. But if you think that a one-time +2/+2 buff for one creature is worth a 6-mana spell slot, then you really should rethink your opinion about Gideon's 2nd ability.

    Suppression Bonds - not C tier. I understand it's been Nerfed, but when it had 2 toughness, it was like S or A. This should be at least A or at worst B.
  • EDHdad
    EDHdad Posts: 609 Critical Contributor
    Green -

    thanks for the shout-out.

    Animist's Awakening - agree with S tier, but one slight nit-pick. There actually is a good time and a bad time to cast this. Good time is when there are 8 green gems on the board and you have a hand full of cards. Bad time is when there are 0 green gems on the board and you have no cards in hand. This works like Evolving Wilds, where you get one gem which, if it survives, will trigger at the start of your next turn. And, like Evolving Wilds, the computer player will go after that gem if possible. However, if there are 8 green gems when you cast it, then you get the effect immediately, and then if the gem survives you get the effect again at the beginning of your next turn.

    The Great Aurora - no quibble with the rating. I just wanted to mention that it doesn't hit that stupid Hexproof creature (Gaea's Revenge). Also, you can't cast it unless there is at least one (non-Hexproof) creature on the field. So you can't use it to blow up a bunch of enchantments on an otherwise empty board.

    Evolutionary Leap - I've never had one in my deck, but there's one in one of the Nissa Story challenges, and it's quite nasty. Put it this way. When both this and a 9/9 hexproof are on the field, your #1 goal is to get rid of the Evolutionary Leap. It might still be a C, but if so, the only reason it's a C is the mana cost.
  • Yea I haven't had anyone actually play with evolutionary leap but my gut instinct is that for that much mana I can do a lot more.

    That fight is only annoying because it starts off with it, I mean that challenge in particular he has 30 mana on the table which is kinda silly.

    So the reason murder investigation is S is actually because of the Gideon nerf - you only need one thing, either brawler plate (safe, less optimal option) or knightly valor (unsafe, better option). If you also carry a take flight you can kill all threats with just that.

    I might put it at A, maybe put knightly valor at S, because of that reasoning.

    Vryn is at S because its a really efficient flyer. I haven't really lost a game when i have this in my hand. And frequently I hope it comes up in my hand, esp vs Jace.

    Mighty leap isn't for the +2, its for the flyer. I'd actually wish it was stratus walk, but oh well.

    I've never had a situation where i wanted suppression bonds, prenerf and post nerf. Gideon's creatures are so good you always want to trade and almost always you have an advantage. Only time I wanted it was when I was faced with fatty fliers, and hey, thats why I pack my deck with fatty fliers now.

    I still haven't decided whether I like anchor or disperse more. Tentatively I chose disperse but really I just don't play jace much anymore. I can see anchor being useful with Jace's skills.

    As to his card draw stuff, I do like the idea of jessian and sigil starfish, but at that point maybe something like Alhamarret's Archive is just as useful. Actually now that I think about it I should move it to B at least.

    Jace simply has so many better creatures he could spend mana on that it is hard to rank stuff that simply has auxiliary ability instead of direct control or beefy body.
  • For the mana Leap costs, you can reinforce most creatures, multiple times, with a guarantee you'll get something. I've tried it, it's not very good.
  • Hi,

    With the ability to exile and now cycle I'd put Alhammart's Archive at B+, A, or in the case of Liliana, S.
    Yes, it is expensive, ROI takes a few turns, but it does have a large turn meter.

    There are plenty of cards significantly more useful now with AA, not all have been mentioned and I won't go into them here. I can confirm that Orbs of Warding does work with AA. It can heals 4 hp. If you take 1 dmg you will actually net heal 3 hp. In some cases self-damage turns into self-heal. OoW has a larger turn meter than AA, it's usually too expensive for most decks.

    Liliana (S):
    - Corrupt L2 destroys one card from your hand and two from your opponent's. This has literally won me the game on it's own (S?). The AI will shuffle its hand based on what it thinks is best even if the first card was one mana away from being cast. Just keep matching skill tiles and crunching, without a cascade the AI can't play anything and even then only one card (which you can still smash). Despite what the texts say Dark Petition and Raise Dead will return these cards directly to your battlefield. So you get to choose any stupidly expensive creature you want and put it directly into play for 9 mana. This will not work with self revives. I also have stopped leveling Liliana for this reason until I know what comes next with the 1.3 leveling changes.


    In other news:
    C Tier
    • Negate (3)(C) - why?
    Why - Since I discovered this gem, I put it in most of my blue decks, especially mana denial ones, over most of the S and almost all the A tier cards. While this will not win you the game it will slow down the game trading 3 for 3. It is mana denial, can't really argue with that. It can provide another turn and possible draw for Sphinx. Mizzium will almost never allow the first card to cast, yes Jace does it better but Jace is a reactionary card and this is offensive. You can save/exile when you don't need it.

    My thoughts.
  • TKC
    TKC Posts: 32
    So is this a comprehensive list of all cards?

    ...and if not, why not? icon_razz.gif
  • TKC wrote:
    So is this a comprehensive list of all cards?

    ...and if not, why not? icon_razz.gif

    I don't know if this is card list is comprehensive or not. I don't have all the cards, there are new cards, and v1.3 changed the mechanics and descriptions of some cards.

    These types of lists are compiled by hand and rely on other forum users / the community to help maintain currency. From personal experience this takes a lot more work than it seems. Unless the developers release official game information, either as a post or website, information like this manually maintained. Even then, ratings such as these would still need to done by the community.

    At one point I noticed there was a card missing here. I found it in the description of another card saying they were the basically the same. I don't remember what the card was. I didn't catch it when I just now scanned the descriptions. I'm assuming it was caught and updated.

    I compared this list to the list on mtgpq.com.
    - Nightsnare is not listed here. 12 mana common. The last two cards in your opponent's hand are destroyed. (As per in-game description - I have this card).
    - Typo here: Animist's Awakenning (extra N). Also not on listed mtgpq.com (I do not have this card).
    - Typo here: Harbinger of the Tides is the correct spelling (extra R)
    - Typo on mtgpq.com Suppression Bonds is correct (missing R)
  • TKC
    TKC Posts: 32
    I was being tongue in cheek, I'm just hoping for an update. icon_e_smile.gif
  • I actually haven't played in a week =o

    Suggestions are mostly good and I have been playing Liliana more before I stopped. She's in a good place now mostly due to dark petition, and all the card draw cards got stronger.

    I would probably still put alhamarret's in B, with a footnote that if you are liliana or playing against her, it is a lifesaver.
  • madwren
    madwren Posts: 2,226 Chairperson of the Boards
    Keral_Keep wrote:
    A lot of white cards, like Sentinel, seem to put too much value into disabling potential blockers. Grasp of the Hieromancer is another one.

    I wonder if they'll nerf the better commons and uncommons, like Pilgrimage and Iroas. They seem to be trying for a "buy packs for rares" model, which is counter to real MTG.


    While it doesn't have value in most games, I find the disabling of blockers is often very useful in the mirror match. It's replaced Suppression Bonds for me.
  • madwren
    madwren Posts: 2,226 Chairperson of the Boards
    EDHdad wrote:
    I agree with most of the your assessments.

    Some possible tweaks:

    * Anchor to the Aether was B, should be A. I never used it to bounce my own creature, so I didn't notice the Nerf. It's a tempo play, because it also draws you a card. The mana isn't really an issue because at the top level, Jace gets 6 mana with one blue match. Plus, Jace's 2nd ability can always put this back into your hand, and if he does, it will only cost 1 or so (depending on your Jace level). Plus, Talent of the Telepath can fetch this and it will cost 1. Plus, Day's Undoing will make it cost 4. If I had to choose between this and Disperse, I'd almost always take this. At the very least, they should be at the same tier.

    * Jhessian Thief - should be re-evaluated now that you can pitch cards. I'm not sure this is A tier, but the phrase "card draw is not needed" should be changed. You're not drawing cards anymore. You're filtering them.

    * Sigiled Starfish - now this one absolutely is an A in my opinion, because of the new ability to pitch cards. Make sure you have 4 or fewer cards in hand at the end of your turn and you will see incredible benefit from the Starfish. The difference between this and the Jhessian Thief is that the Thief draws when it hits the opponent. So you won't be able to draw and cast the card the same turn. With the Starfish, you draw 2 cards at the beginning of your turn and can set up your turn from there.

    * Separtist Voidmage - is C should probably be B. Bounce is still good. It still kills token creatures (such as Frogs), still Nerfs reinforced creatures, and the mana given to the opponent isn't relevant when combined with Day's Undoing. Even without Day's Undoing, it's still a tempo play. If Harbinger of Tides is S, this shouldn't be 3 tiers lower. If Disperse is A, this shouldn't be 2 tiers lower.

    * Screeching Scab - actually works pretty well with Day's Undoing. Also usually works fine if you place it 2nd on the list of cards to cast. If you get enough mana to cast card #1 and one or two extra mana, this gets cast as a bonus. Maybe it should still be a C, but I wouldn't say that I can't recommend it to anyone.

    Agreed on all counts. I'm in love with the Starfish. It also combos well with Sphinx's Tutelage, and being 3/5 makes it hard to remove.

    I used to not see the point of Screeching Skaab, but several beatdowns later, it's a surprisingly effective clock. You can't control for cascades, but it just takes a little foresight to minimize the mana lost.
  • I don't recommend scarab because esp now with the emphasis on leveling PW, people's healths are too high for it to be a useful clock.

    I mean in MtG with 20 health it is certainly effective, but with our 50, 60+ health it really doesn't do anything.

    The reason voidmage is C is not because bounce is bad, but because it is your worst bounce. I would not pack 4 bounces anymore, and it is a pitiful body with a cruddy effect. I wouldn't put more than 3 bounces (usually have 2) and the other 3 are always much better.

    I haven't played enough games where I felt I wanted to put sigil starfish out, but I won't deny that its ability is very good. Main reason is that Jace has so many options I've never felt that I didn't have a card when I needed it, esp with talent and day's undoing. Once you get either of those two out once you can also just use jace's second ability to cheese everything.
  • Meto5000
    Meto5000 Posts: 583
    Dwynen, Gilt-Leaf Daen (14)(R) - hard to activate ability, but it is a reach creature that is efficient with good stats

    Just wanted to note that the ability is not hard to activate at all. Between Animist's Awakening, the now super OP Nissa's Pilgrimage and Nissa's +6 Planeswalker ability it's super easy to add green tiles to the board in order to activate Dwynen.
  • raidan
    raidan Posts: 128
    edited February 2016
    Mr. Panda,

    I saw for the colorless dual lands artifacts you wrote: it's better to chose "allied colors, not primary colors", however this is not always the case.

    With Planeswalkers at max level (which is encouraged in the upcomming patch) : selecting the primary color is either equal or better than selecting allied colored lands.

    Especially for Jace and Lillian.

    Best dual lands for each planeswalker:

    Jace: Shiva Reef (red +0, blue +3),
    Yavimaya Coast (green +0, blue +3)

    Lillian: Caves of Koilos(white +0, black +3),
    Llano Wastes (green +0, black +3)

    Nissa: Battlefield Forge (white +1, red +1),
    Llano Wastes (green +2, black +0),
    Yavimaya Coast (green +2, blue +0)
    (Of course Nissa's pilgrimage is even better.)

    Chandra: Battlefield Forge (white +0, red+2),
    Llano Wastes (green +1, black +1),
    Shiva Reef (red +2, blue +0)

    Gideon: Caves of Kilios: (white +2, black +0),
    Battlefieldfield Forge (white +2, red +0),
    Yavimaya Coast (green +1, blue +1)

    So at max level: Jace and Lillian are strictly better with primary color lands.

    Additionally, Nissa, Chandra, and Gideon all gain extra benefits from their primary colors. Nissa synergizes greatly with green, Chandra gets additional benefits from having red on the board, Gideon gains extra bonuses on some spells with white and it synergizes with Knights of the white orchard.

    Because of this, at max level I would say dual lands with primary colors will usually be a better than dual lands with allied colors, however they will never be worse.


    Small note about your description for Jace: his second ability is now much better with the ability to banish cards. I thought you might want to update that.
  • EDUSAN
    EDUSAN Posts: 197 Tile Toppler
    i think that what panda tries to say about lookin for alliad colors dual lands is that you normally go for your primary color for matches, and you may leave allied color gem stack and they might match themselves alone with the help of the suppot card.

    When playing black i normally run out of black gems because as they give +3 bonus im actively seeking matches with them.


    maybe i understood the idea of considering better the allied dual lands wrongly though
  • There are a couple of considerations when determining whether you use such support cards. If you're using 1, the topic is debatable because if you're counting on your allied colors to match when they change it does leave the possibility of more of your primary color to come on the board and move those gems into proximity for a match. However, if you're using 2 or more you have a huge problem. The proc for the gem-change occurs sequentially, not simultaneously. What this means is that your second (and subsequent) land has a chance of undoing the previous land's gem-change for the same gem, rendering any cumulative effect you're hoping for null. Additionally, if a match occurs with the first land on a color shared by a subsequent land the latter's effect is diminished because there are fewer gems of that color on the board due to the former's match; you shouldn't run lands that share colors. I do run Nissa's Pilgrimage and Battlefield Forge together to great effect because they don't step on each other's toes. That's not to say it hasn't been detrimental on occasion, but nothing's perfect; I've had Animist's Awakening bite me.
  • raidan
    raidan Posts: 128
    Kore,

    I understand what you're saying about using 2 or more potentially creating a problem, but arguably having 4 different colors from your dual lands could also create it's own problems.

    Lets use Chandra as an example:
    I would argue Battlefield Forge (white/red) and Shiva Reef (blue/red) would usually be better than either of them with Llano Wastes (green/black):

    Lets say Battle Forge plays first and places a white and red, and the red is in a favorable spot for a nice match up. Then Shiva Reef comes in to play, lets hypothetically say it targets that same red that just transformed, I would rather it have a chance to change that red into red again and maintain that favorable spot than a guaranteed chance to change it to black/green. If it did change it from red to red you would lose that cumulative effect of 2 new red spots that turn, but you would also maintain the good match up that you had initially.

    Edusan,

    I think you're on to something about actively going after your main color and having allied colors have a higher chance of getting auto matches, with RNG it definitely could swing in favor of having more matches with allied colors vs primary. Of course this would also change if the enemies primary color is one of your allied colors, I guess there's just too much RNG to really calculate which one will often be better.
  • raidan wrote:
    Then Shiva Reef comes in to play, lets hypothetically say it targets that same red that just transformed, I would rather it have a chance to change that red into red again and maintain that favorable spot than a guaranteed chance to change it to black/green.
    I don't think that it's possible to change 1 color into the same color. If that was the case, it would happen for green a lot. I've never seen it.

    I ,myself , don't use double lands a lot in my decks. I only add them when I need heavy support in helmet of god decks or if I have cards that need a lot of one color for better effects. For both, I prefer to have my main color buffed. Only exception of this: I don't like the 2nd color to be blue because fights against blue are already hard enough.
  • I put those in there because someone suggested they might not be so bad, and I think that moving 2 colors is pretty good. They also suggested that allied colors are more useful, because it is more likely that you have those colors still on the board after 2 sets of matches, (since both you and the opponent will prioritize matching your primary color), and because the mana gain is more steady.

    Frankly I still don't use them lol, I never found that I needed them for mana gain. They should pay for themselves fairly quickly, however, so they are worth a consideration esp if you need a filler. You could do a lot worse.
  • EDUSAN
    EDUSAN Posts: 197 Tile Toppler
    raidan wrote:
    Edusan,

    I think you're on to something about actively going after your main color and having allied colors have a higher chance of getting auto matches, with RNG it definitely could swing in favor of having more matches with allied colors vs primary. Of course this would also change if the enemies primary color is one of your allied colors, I guess there's just too much RNG to really calculate which one will often be better.

    Besides, i get bonuses for both colors because they are my allied colors, my opponent (unless its the same color as me, which sucks) he will have:

    1) only 1 of the colors to be allied to him (i get better bonuses)
    2) his primary color (this is bad), but he other color would have to be neutral to him (which is good to me)
    (except blue and black that share the +3 bonus)

    so... for instance: im black, i use the red and blue colors suppot

    if im against Green, he gets +1 for the red and nothing for blue (+1/+0). I get +1/+1
    if im against RED, he gets +2/+0 and i get +1/+1
    if im against White, he gets +0/+2 and i get +1/+1
    if im against blue, he gets +0/+3 and i get +1/+1
    if im against black, we both get +1/+1

    Maybe black is the worst scenario because my allied color blue is GREAT for my blue opponent. But that being said: I win against Green, and Tie against the oher 4 colors. Let try with another color

    Green dual land is red and white

    Green: +1/+1 both
    Red: +2/+0 vs +1/+1 me
    White: +2/+0 vs +1/+1 me
    Blue: +0/+1 vs +1/+1 me
    Black: +1/+0 vs +1/+1 me

    In the case of Green, i win against blue and black, and tie against the other 3


    I think the final point about these is that the color changes occur when your turn starts, so YOU get the 1st opportunity to take advantage of the new gems when they didnt match by themselves

    they still dont look too appealing to be honest (in my black deck, for now, i use the spell that gives you 5 mana at the start of your turn one time and my dual land, i like them)