Panda's Card Tier List - Updated for 1.3 Patch

Unknown

pandabear wrote:

Um, or you could play consul, and not waste time with berserker.

Whites removal is his 1 ability.

Berserker is a waste of time

I agree. What's more, First Strike + Vigilance means removal off-turn. That's the true power of vigilance/defender/reach, off-turn removal, assuming it survives, leaving it to damage the PW on-turn.

Unknown

pandabear wrote:

Harbinger is still S or A tier because it is still an instant denial. I dunno what world players live in now where you cannot bounce a creature that just came out.

End-of-turn draw or abilities aren't that rare, and that has been my experience. It also assumes have a HotT, AttA, Disperse, or VM on deck and ready to deploy; this isn't too much of a problem for Disperse but it can be for the other 3 bounce cards.

Unknown

Consul's Lieutenant fills a different role and is basically a worse Relic Seeker.
So white's removal requires you to have your creatures fight, but "berserker is a waste of time"?
And why does Scab-Clan Berserker get the negative comment "gets bogged down by berserker" if "they want to clear creatures and don't have vigilance".
How is it good for red? In my experience the entire and only reason it's good is because it can be given vigilance and buffs by Gideon.
Have you ever played it in a white deck and a red deck? Red decks don't have time for this if it doesn't do something else worthwhile.

I actually disagree with a lot here. Maybe I should make my own list or something.

Unknown

I mean you can, and I welcome you to do it, but I think your motivation is wrong. It is good to disagree. Doesn't mean I hate u or you are wrong. Quite the opposite, this discourse helps others make up their own minds about the value of cards, and I enjoyed reading your opinion.

The reason I rate it low for white is that its ability isn't needed for white. It wastes time for Gideon because you don't need berserker. Furthermore Gideon main weakness is flyers and bounce, which iroas doesn't address at all.

Picture this, knight for a 4/4, or iroas for 4/4.

Enemy has a 4/4 creature.

On your turn, knight would swing for 4. Iroas would kill the creature and swing for 0.

Next turn, enemy plays a 1/1 or something. Enemy suicides on knight. For iroas, nothing happens.

On your turn again, knight swings for 4. Iroas again wastes time killing the 1/1.

On enemy turn, they churn out another creature, etc etc.

So for the same result, iroas has done no damage, while knight or relic or consul or any other white creature has been swinging at the enemy. That is the power of whites 1.


The reason I like her for red is red doesn't have vigilance or good defenders. I like the idea of persistent board control so with at is why iroas as Chandra's only persistent control is so useful, esp if you get a bad hand later, etc. of course on paper if u can keep drawing ramblers or exquisite that is fine, but in reality that requires a bit of luck.

Unknown

Red doesn't need persistent control. It needs a few burn spells. Clearly, we play differently, but S rank? Not really.

Just FYI, stick a Sharp Eyes on a flier and you can kill it easily.

Your scenario seems very unlikely, and besides, with the time it buys you, you can get one of them out. I can see A tier, but B? Really? It's a very good card.
In red, Champion is a big berserker. It's not very good because red already has berserkers and burn spells aplenty. I'd rather play an Abbot or Dragon or even a Scab-Clan. All are better value.
In white, it gives great value for your buffs and kills every creature your opponent controls bar those with toughness greater than 10.
I have to ask, why are berserkers in white bad, but in red they're better than defender?

EDHdad

I play Iroas' Champion in both red and white. She is an all-star in both decks. As mentioned, the roles are a bit different. But she doesn't just have berserker. She has berserker and double strike.

In red, the combination of Iroas's Champion and Embermaw Hellion does tremendous amounts of damage. Every time Iroas' Champion strikes, the Hellion deals 3 damage. So at maximum, the Champion hits for 8, the Hellion hits for 5, and then the Hellion also deals an additional 9. That's 22 damage per turn.

In white, Iroas' Champion and Consul's Lieutenant are difficult to beat. It used to be you could give them +4/+4 and lifelink, and you would be at full health in short order (or the game would be over). Now, you can't give them lifelink, but you can give them vigilance, which often kills all non-flying attackers. You can give her +2/+2, with Gideon's 2nd ability, in which case she kills any non-flyer with toughness less than 12, even trading with a renowned Outland Colossus. She has difficulty with Jace Nerfing her power every turn. But the usual workaround for Jace is to not cast any creatures at all unless you can have 2 or 3 on the board at the same time. And go easy on the reinforcements unless you're OK with them getting bounced.

Either way, Iroas' Champion is absolutely top tier. Though I will admit I don't have Relic Seeker to compare her with.

The 19 mana cost isn't an issue at all. You pick up mana at an average of about 4 to 5 per turn, so she can be out on turn 4 or 5, and Gideon will have enough loyalty to pump her at least once. Meanwhile, what does the opponent have? A couple of elves and a caterpillar? They'll be dead next turn.

The other creatures I run in red are Skyraker Giant (blocks flyers) and Volcanic Rambler (puts early pressure on the board, sometimes can destroy pesky supports).

Unknown

If you rate things relative to Relic Seeker, everything's bad. Maybe I'm overvaluing it, but t3 Relic Seeker is an almost guaranteed win, and if you get Iroa's Champion out then Relic Seeker, it is a guaranteed win.

Meto5000

I don't understand why people like spending 19 mana for creatures that trade equally for creatures that cost 7 less mana (or more). I play 4 creatures that trade evenly with Iroas' champion and they all cost 12 or less mana. Do you people not understand value? White doesn't want berserker because it's meaningless in a deck that can give every creature vigilance. Berserker is inferior to vigilance because it wastes time killing creatures instead of planeswalkers. Vigilance does both. I'm baffled at the people arguing for Iroas as a top tier spell in white. Panda has explained it in so many different ways and you're still all running around with your fingers in your ears telling us how OP it is. Baffled.

Unknown

It keeps the board clear completely. It also responds excellently to pumps from Gideon, and let's not forget the the AI is like inebriated monkeys (though it's getting better).
So while I'm sure you can deal with it, let's remember that not everyone is so lucky - and let's be sure - you're saying you can easily muster a 5/5 with first strike or better when you need it, in the narrow window before it gets pumped up too high? Because I'm not saying "oh, it looks so cool it must be good". I've played it, and it smashes face.
Either way, my main point is it is in no way S tier in red, because everything that makes it good besides supports (read- not an 8/4 with first strike for 19) is in white, those being Sharp Eyes, Relic Seeker, Consul's Lieutenant, and Champion.
Now, I'll admit, I only really think it's good because of the double strike. I would prefer a cheaper smaller creature maybe without berserker. But this is all there is.

Red has plenty of removal. It doesn't need Iroas's Champion. White? Not so much removal.

Unknown

Just FYI you don't need a 5/5 first striker to beat iroas. Any 4/5 creature or higher will trade with her, and almost all of them are cheaper.

Iroas rated badly in white because she is literally slower in every way that pretty much ANY creature combo you can think of for white for the same price.

Again I'm really not so sure how you can imagine berserker to be useful in any scenario when vigilance is easy to get. I think there is a fundamental disagreement here and I don't understand how berserker keeps the board more clean than vigilance does. Berserker wastes your attack.

As a very easy example, irons will NEVER get past murder investigation. A laughable counter while literally any other creature combo in Gideon's deck will laugh it off and ignore it.

You don't think summoning a few weenies a turn is unlikely? Have you seen how many nissa decks there are?

I am just not understanding your motivations here.

Why would u casts scab when you have iroas? Why would u use any other berserker when red has so many good efficient creatures instead? Why wouldn't you want persistent board control with one card when pretty much every single deck want persistent, worry free board control, from Gideon vigilance get first strikers to have mana denial to Chandra burn and berserker, to Lilian's discard and destruction to Nissas I dunno lol.

The whole point of the game is to

1. Have board control to not lose any health to do more matches In a row. I this field iroas is extraneous for Gideon and great for Chandra.

2. Finish a game quickly to do more fights in a row. Again, inefficient for Gideon and decently efficient for Chandra.

It isn't a bad card but pales in comparison to other whites, simply because it wastes too much time killing stuff that is already dead.

Unknown

What baffles me is how you think it's good in red but bad in white. It gets shut down by Murder Investigation in a red deck too, you know.

Unknown

Because red has a need for persistent board clear, and first strikers are harder to come by, and red has no defenders of note, so berserking is more useful.

Aside from burn cards, it is always my first pick as creature for the immediate safety she brings as red. What other card has more to offer red? It shores up reds weakness nicely so you can focus on other things while she does pretty much nothing for white.

This is why I think she's good in red.

Murder investigation is not a problem for red. Can you say demolish?

Unknown

Red HAS persistent board clearing. It has, in my opinion, the best removal out of any color. Exquisite Firecraft can kill most of the game's creatures, and smaller burn spells are also good. Maybe I'll put it back in, but I do really like Scab-Clan's "play creatures or I punch you in the face" mechanic.

raidan

During the first new competiton, I ended up winning 209 matches (401 points). This got me first place (winning a duplicate mythic card I already had 2 of....), but I digress.

I used my Gideon deck 90% of those wins. For the first 80-100 wins, I was rocking Iroa's Champion. I quickly found out how much worse berserker was compared to vigilance when it came to winning a game. After about 40 of those wins, I almost never used her, because there was almost always a better option in my hand. Shes just so expensive and iffy on usefulness. I would only use her if she was my only creature, and even after investing 1-7 mana in her, I would often swap to a different creature if I drew one on the next turn.

Finally I realized she was a burden in my deck. I swapped her out for a generic uncommon inexpensive creature. My last 100 ish games without her were noticeably faster on average.

My conclusion, if you barely have any rares/mythics and you're also short on decent uncommons, Iroa's isn't the worst creature you could add. But like most of us, we have a healthy choice of uncommon and a few rares/mythics, in this case I cannot recommend Iroa's. The 19 mana cost will rarely pay for itself, and the damage you sustain while trying to bring her out will potentially create additional down time if you run out of potions.

Unknown

Okay, I get you guys don't like her. Double strike is a fun ability, and maybe the next card won't have berserker. What I don't get is how you think it's good in red.

Unknown

It's not so much that I don't like her, because she is a good card, and I had a glowing recommendation for her in my other guide. It is simply that she doesn't fit in white.

I keep reiterating this, but she is good in red because she is the most efficient removal you have assuming you don't win in less than 4 turns.

Unknown

I really don't agree. Red has the best removal, and it doesn't need this.
Compare to Scab-Clan Berserker.
Both are 19.
Scab-Clan Berserker has haste and won't reach full power unless you deal combat damage.
Champion deals half its damage as first strike damage, but does one damage less and has less toughness at full power.
Basically, Berserker is better if you can get it through, and with red's abundant removal, that's easy.
At worst, you've spent 19 to clear half your opponent's board on average, which isn't good value. But Champion dies to anything with toughness five or more without white spells and buffs.

EDHdad

The way red controls the board is by burning all of the opponent's creatures. The way white controls the board is by having all of the opponent's creatures smash into their creatures. Iroas' Champion fits into both strategies.

She kills or trades with every green creature, with the exception of a renowned Outland Colossus.

She kills or trades with every non-flying red creature.

She kills or trades with every non-flying white creature.

She kills or trades with every non-flying black creature.

She kills or trades with every non-flying colorless creature. Though when she kills a Hangarback Walker, stuff hits the fan.

In red, just think of her as another burn spell. 19 mana, do 8 damage to the first non-flying creature on the board, every turn. Or 8 damage to the opponent if there aren't any.

You aren't going to draw Exquisite Firecraft every single draw. Your Ghirapur Aether Grids are going to get blown up. You're going to need boots on the ground at some point.

Unknown

I thought we were done with the topic of her usefulness in white.

Anyway ED is right why she is useful in red. I dunno why you'd compare her to scab, iroas is a better board clear in every situation.

People keep bragging about using exquisite to clear everything...yes that is the point. You use it with iroas to clear everything. She empowers your burn to be "kill everything with 7-10 toughness" rather than just 3-6.

She is efficient because she has first strike. While scab will go down after clearing half the board iroas will stay up and keep clearing for the rest of the game.

Not really sure how burn and iroas are mutually exclusive. You can absolutely think of her as a persistent burn for 4 every turn. If you think of it that way, you can easily see why she is more efficient than exquisite after a few turns, even if u managed to draw one every turn.

aesith

So some like her in red, some in white, some hate her. Can we move on now please? Some cards are agreed upon, others vary by player.