January Community Video: Champions Feature

OneLastGambit

Gari wrote:

Jesus Christ.

No, it hasn't "increased dramatically." You've been given a content expansion and relative to what you have spent or need to spend to max the characters you've got, champion costs are a pittance.

You are almost certainly going to make those champion costs back in champion level rewards, never mind increased placement or progression rewards from a stronger roster.

Your ISO stash has not been devalued. It doesn't take a "significantly larger amount of ISO" to play the game.

There may well be issues unforeseen with this feature but ISO devaluation/inflation is not one of them. This isn't tough stuff, champ.

Umm... yes, it has increased DRAMATICALLY. You are counting just the championing fee, but completely disregarding the cost of ISO required to go to max level.

I highly doubt you are going to make back the hundreds of thousands in ISO it takes to bring a couple very usable characters up to max level so that you can champion them. Again, I hope I am wrong, but I don't see it happening.[/quote]

It hasn't increased, the iso cost to max your character is the same as before. they haven't suddenly added to the iso cost (apart from the one time fee). What you mean is YOUR iso cost has increased because YOU decided to stunt your growth on purpose. The devs didn't do anything to your game, you did it by not playing the game as it was intended to be played. Also this shouldn't really be an issue for a soft-capper because if you are not spending your iso on levelling to the max like the rest of us then you had to have been saving it right? Where else could it be going?
You must be sitting on a mountain of iso anyway.[/quote]


This is not true for all soft cappers. If you play a lot you can progress so fast that you acquire all the covers but not enough iso. My 3* are parked at 145 and lower because I have 4*'s that I need to feed. Now I need to play catchup and it's going to suck.[/quote]

you cannot claim that you are both playing a lot and then have no ISO? Those two statements contradict each other.
Are you playing Pve? Are you playing LR? ddq gives 5k a day. That's way better than what us vets had to go through.[/quote]


^^^ This is true - last week I had nothing to do and played 2 LR finishing t250 in both I farmed 12K iso from doing that and it did not take long, add in the 5K from DDQ plus what you could earn from low level PVP/PVE play and you're probably looking at about20k per day that can be earned. There is Iso available with minimal play, is there 300k to max your roster per day? No but there is some available. It's not as bottlenecked as people think they are just not willing to do what I did that day to get it.

People seem to want to earn 20-50k Iso per day from one game mode (and that game mode has to be their preferred game mode too I might add), this seems unrealistic to me. To play DDQ, 2x LR and PVP to 300 points does not take a lot of time or even many health packs and can be done by anyone in 3* land and above.

GrumpySmurf1002

aesthetocyst wrote:

And there there's 5*s...

While this is a throw away line, it's part of the problem too. They added a tier of characters, with increased costs, without increasing the Iso outflow in any way. (not to mention the onslaught of 4* characters with the same problem).

Now, much like when they lowered iso costs on the 3* tier and added 3700/4200 worth of DDQ, I expect some (partial) solution to the Iso problem amongst the changes they're making to reward structures. That will not mean that everyone can suddenly max everyone when they feel like it. The game will never have that kind of flow. Restriction of resources is how they make money. But it should still be enough to get moving a little faster through the tiers.

JVReal

I feel a little bad for the guys that jumped from 2* to 4* and tried skipping the 3* transition. They will be the ones kicking themselves and seeing the advantage they thought they had disappear. They will "feel" forced to stop leveling their premature 4* characters in order to collect the 3* characters, AND max them, AND champion them. What once felt like a smart move, now feels like a mistake... but instead of feeling regret and calling it regret, they will feel regret and display it as anger and unfair disparity from the developer and resent the vets that progressed the way you were supposed to and are able to immediately make us of (not take advantage of) the new feature.

I don't understand the people complaining that this feature will only benefit the wealthy and the vets... it's added to the game to extend the life of the game... to give more stuff to those that are at that point in the game... specifically the vets. When you reach vet status, you will make use of it too.

This is what happens when you find yourself in a population that has been raised with instant gratification and a sense of entitlement.

pheregas

GrumpySmurf1002 wrote:

aesthetocyst wrote:

And there there's 5*s...

While this is a throw away line, it's part of the problem too. They added a tier of characters, with increased costs, without increasing the Iso outflow in any way. (not to mention the onslaught of 4* characters with the same problem).

Now, much like when they lowered iso costs on the 3* tier and added 3700/4200 worth of DDQ, I expect some (partial) solution to the Iso problem amongst the changes they're making to reward structures. That will not mean that everyone can suddenly max everyone when they feel like it. The game will never have that kind of flow. Restriction of resources is how they make money. But it should still be enough to get moving a little faster through the tiers.

I think you've touched on something in the game mechanic. There are two freemium bottlenecks for players.

1) Covers
2) Iso

Since Iso is fairly limiting, you're forced to level up the covers you have. Or... You can save the Iso until you happen upon whichever covers you want to level. This helped create the softcap system (and was exacerbated by scaling).

What I like about the idea of the new Champion system is that it takes the bottleneck system a step further. Since Iso is so limiting, you need to pick and choose which characters get Champion status. This leads to only a few characters like this instead of everybody on your lineup.

Ultimately, you'll be able to pay forward the 2* Champ rewards into 3* rewards. And eventually turn those into 4* rewards, all for leveling up the characters you are actually using. On paper, to me anyway, it seems like a great way to force people to level their characters and throw their Iso behind a specific team and will ultimately aid 2/3 and 3/4 transitions.

The downside to this is that a diverse character inventory will be very difficult to maintain... But that's always been part of the bottleneck for those of us that leveled their characters to max.

Thoughts? Did I get this wrong, or not take it far enough?

MPQ_Daywalker

JVReal wrote:

I feel a little bad for the guys that jumped from 2* to 4* and tried skipping the 3* transition. They will be the ones kicking themselves and seeing the advantage they thought they had disappear. They will "feel" forced to stop leveling their premature 4* characters in order to collect the 3* characters, AND max them, AND champion them. What once felt like a smart move, now feels like a mistake... but instead of feeling regret and calling it regret, they will feel regret and display it as anger and unfair disparity from the developer and resent the vets that progressed the way you were supposed to and are able to immediately make us of (not take advantage of) the new feature.

I don't understand the people complaining that this feature will only benefit the wealthy and the vets... it's added to the game to extend the life of the game... to give more stuff to those that are at that point in the game... specifically the vets. When you reach vet status, you will make use of it too.

This is what happens when you find yourself in a population that has been raised with instant gratification and a sense of entitlement.

Agreed on all points. Those guys who tried skipping the 3* transition are often the ones you see with a couple 250 or 270 lvl 4*s and a barely leveled 3* in PVP... they're likely making a nice and easy climb but without maxed 3*s this change is going to really frustrate them.

I think if you've been playing the game as Demiurge intended -- maxing out characters when you can -- this change is very positive. Everything about the game pushes you to level up your characters -- blinking Train buttons, the text at the end of a lost battle, etc.

Many people have chosen to not max a lot of characters and instead level evenly. I understand that, since before now there weren't many incentives to do so, other than having the strongest possible characters in that * rating (which really only becomes important if you're regularly playing PVP). Now there are 100 levels of incentives for 3* and 4* characters, plus the ability to make those characters even stronger each time. That's a big incentive IMO, and I understand the frustration people will have if they're not ready to have Champions. But as others on this forum have said: if you want all those cool rewards and the extra levels, start maxing your characters.

I'm on Day 504 and according to my spreadsheet I've spent a total of 4.3M ISO to level my characters, which doesn't count a few 2*s that I maxed and sold for roster space. ISO exists in this game, but you do have to work for it. DDQ, LRs, farming PVE, 300 in PVPs. And if you've never maxed out a 3*, you'll be pleasantly surprised how powerful they end up being, especially the high tier characters like Cyclops, LC and IF. Their power makes up for the fact that your scaling increases in PVE -- and as long as you can bring up 2 or 3 high tiers to max level, your PVP experience will still be enjoyable as well.

antreas1911

It is a question that i wanted to do long before.

Why do i see rosters equally leveled in a lower price? or soft capped, forgive my english.

I mean from day 1, i lvl up at max lvl every character i can.
And this way now, i manage to hit easily 1k in every single pvp unshielded. I even hit 1.3 at half pvps unshielded.

And i almost always hit top10 in every new character pve.

I say, in no place in the world, one has the power and locks it in a drawer. Don't do it. Use it.

simonsez

antreas1911 wrote:

It is a question that i wanted to do long before.

Why do i see rosters equally leveled in a lower price? or soft capped, forgive my english.

It makes PvE easier

jobob

Reading back over my posts, I came off snippy and I apologize. Some other folks did too, but I kinda started it coming in guns blazing.

Ultimately, I am excited for the new system, and looking forward to using it. I wish parts of it had been implemented differently, but I harped on what I didn't like waaay too harshly.

I do want to say this- I don't regret leveling everyone across the board evenly instead of taking characters to max 1 by 1, or moving to 3*s before I maxed out all the 2*s, or 4*s before maxed 3*s. I don't think it's a "wrong" way to play, and while I can understand why the system isn't designed around players like me, I do wish the system were a little more friendly to people of all playstyles.

jobob

antreas1911 wrote:

Why do i see rosters equally leveled in a lower price? or soft capped, forgive my english.

simonsez wrote:

It makes PvE easier

The PVE thing may be a reason for some, but not all (and maybe not most?).

Another reason is because there's a point where the ISO/level jumps up significantly... so you can bring multiple 3*s up to level 120 for the same price to take one from 120 -> 166. Some people want a full roster of very usable characters before they start maxing, rather than a few powerhouses surrounded by weaker characters.

DFiPL

antreas1911 wrote:

It is a question that i wanted to do long before.

Why do i see rosters equally leveled in a lower price? or soft capped, forgive my english.

I mean from day 1, i lvl up at max lvl every character i can.
And this way now, i manage to hit easily 1k in every single pvp unshielded. I even hit 1.3 at half pvps unshielded.

And i almost always hit top10 in every new character pve.

I say, in no place in the world, one has the power and locks it in a drawer. Don't do it. Use it.

Top of my head, three reasons:

1) scaling. Because it's based on the average level of just a few of your characters rather than your roster as a whole, if you take three characters to 166 and leave everybody else languishing, you wind up with PVE fights that those three can handle, but that the rest of your roster is completely outclassed for. If you see a roster where everybody is equally leveled, it MAY be for this reason. Most of my 3* are at 125 because I wait until I can bring everybody along 5 levels or so before I level anybody. I have a couple 3* I pushed into the 130/140 ranges before I understood about scaling, but since learning more or less how that worked, I've tried to level everybody approximately equally.

2) PVE placement. If your roster is lower level, not only do you not deal with the scaling issues described above, but your fights are shorter because your enemies are lower level. Shorter fights = faster clears = more clears = ability to place higher on the leaderboards for PVE rewards.

3) ISO costs to level. Up to a point, it's pretty cheap with 3*. After that point, the costs jump, and you're better off bringing the rest of the team up to that point while you can still do so quickly. As jobob points out, you can level a bunch of 3* to 120 for what it would cost to max a level 120 3*.

Soft-capping is a term that gets used as an insult, but when it is, it's usually with the assumption that the user is chasing option #2. It can also mean options #1 and #3, though, which are more about quality of life maintenance and resource allocation than anything else.

DFiPL

jobob wrote:

Reading back over my posts, I came off snippy and I apologize. Some other folks did too, but I kinda started it coming in guns blazing.

Ultimately, I am excited for the new system, and looking forward to using it. I wish parts of it had been implemented differently, but I harped on what I didn't like waaay too harshly.

I do want to say this- I don't regret leveling everyone across the board evenly instead of taking characters to max 1 by 1, or moving to 3*s before I maxed out all the 2*s, or 4*s before maxed 3*s. I don't think it's a "wrong" way to play, and while I can understand why the system isn't designed around players like me, I do wish the system were a little more friendly to people of all playstyles.

It's all good, dude. I think we both spoke out of frustration more than anything else. I didn't take anything you said personally, and I hope the same is true across the aisle.

And, y'know, I agree with you on both counts here. I don't regret leveling everybody equally (which is what I've been doing for the last several months), and I wish there had been a way to use excess 3* covers to continue the push towards championining. I would love if I could have fed an excess cover to a 13-cover 3* for an extra level, since I'd had about two dozen in my queue. I was a little disappointed that championing requires the character to be at 166 already, but the ability to champion 2* and get the ball rolling that way was at least a panacea for me - I'm not being left out of playing with the new toy. I just don't get to let my big boys play with that toy for a while.

jobob

DFiPL wrote:

jobob wrote:

Reading back over my posts, I came off snippy and I apologize. Some other folks did too, but I kinda started it coming in guns blazing.

Ultimately, I am excited for the new system, and looking forward to using it. I wish parts of it had been implemented differently, but I harped on what I didn't like waaay too harshly.

I do want to say this- I don't regret leveling everyone across the board evenly instead of taking characters to max 1 by 1, or moving to 3*s before I maxed out all the 2*s, or 4*s before maxed 3*s. I don't think it's a "wrong" way to play, and while I can understand why the system isn't designed around players like me, I do wish the system were a little more friendly to people of all playstyles.

It's all good, dude. I think we both spoke out of frustration more than anything else. I didn't take anything you said personally, and I hope the same is true across the aisle.

And, y'know, I agree with you on both counts here. I don't regret leveling everybody equally (which is what I've been doing for the last several months), and I wish there had been a way to use excess 3* covers to continue the push towards championining. I would love if I could have fed an excess cover to a 13-cover 3* for an extra level, since I'd had about two dozen in my queue. I was a little disappointed that championing requires the character to be at 166 already, but the ability to champion 2* and get the ball rolling that way was at least a panacea for me - I'm not being left out of playing with the new toy. I just don't get to let my big boys play with that toy for a while.

Yup... it's all good, no worries. And, while it's not perfect... it is better than what we had and definitely has some cool features.

ZootSax

DFiPL wrote:

antreas1911 wrote:

It is a question that i wanted to do long before.

Why do i see rosters equally leveled in a lower price? or soft capped, forgive my english.

Top of my head, three reasons:

1) scaling. Because it's based on the average level of just a few of your characters rather than your roster as a whole, if you take three characters to 166 and leave everybody else languishing, you wind up with PVE fights that those three can handle, but that the rest of your roster is completely outclassed for. If you see a roster where everybody is equally leveled, it MAY be for this reason. Most of my 3* are at 125 because I wait until I can bring everybody along 5 levels or so before I level anybody. I have a couple 3* I pushed into the 130/140 ranges before I understood about scaling, but since learning more or less how that worked, I've tried to level everybody approximately equally.

2) PVE placement. If your roster is lower level, not only do you not deal with the scaling issues described above, but your fights are shorter because your enemies are lower level. Shorter fights = faster clears = more clears = ability to place higher on the leaderboards for PVE rewards.

3) ISO costs to level. Up to a point, it's pretty cheap with 3*. After that point, the costs jump, and you're better off bringing the rest of the team up to that point while you can still do so quickly. As jobob points out, you can level a bunch of 3* to 120 for what it would cost to max a level 120 3*.

Soft-capping is a term that gets used as an insult, but when it is, it's usually with the assumption that the user is chasing option #2. It can also mean options #1 and #3, though, which are more about quality of life maintenance and resource allocation than anything else.

In addition to what DFiPL said, there's also the ability to use more combinations of characters. I don't really have the time or money commitment to place well in PVE or take PVP all too seriously. If I leveled all my 3* characters to maximum, it would effectively make my 2*'s & 4*'s (other than Devil Dinosaur, none of my 4*'s have more than 6 covers) useless. By keeping them all the same approximate level, I can use all of my non-1* characters competitively. For a casual phone game, it doesn't seem worth it to me to voluntarily render a good percentage of my characters obsolete just for the sake of maximizing levels--I only get placement awards if I'm in easy brackets anyway.

That being said, raising the 2* cap by 50 levels with Championing, will raise where I soft-cap by ~50 levels, so in the end I'll probably end up with maximizing all my available (non-Devil Dinosaur) characters anyway. Although we'll have to see how the implementation goes, I like how the Champion system does address soft-capping, in theory.

TLCstormz

Punisher5784 wrote:

They made this feature to force you to level your characters!

lol. Clearly.

simonsez

TLCstormz wrote:

Punisher5784 wrote:

They made this feature to force you to level your characters!

lol. Clearly.

It doesn't force you to do anything. Someone can stay exactly as they are and continue to steamroll PvE with their lv120 roster if that's they want. If they ever fixed scaling to look at #covers and not level, that WOULD force people to level their characters.

madok

simonsez wrote:

It doesn't force you to do anything. Someone can stay exactly as they are and continue to steamroll PvE with their lv120 roster if that's they want. If they ever fixed scaling to look at #covers and not level, that WOULD force people to level their characters.

I was actually expecting them to announce something like that for the very next patch. It would be the perfect stick to go with the carrot of Championing.

Of course, just because they haven't announced it doesn't mean it isn't going live next week.