Stop giving 20 ISO rewards first, discussion and musings

Bryan Lambert

Listening of the tales of people who will pursue a single command point no matter what the cost, I have to wonder how much this hardcore style of play affects how the devs view our feedback.

We saw something similar with Galactus Round 1. Everyone said they hated it. Nearly everyone kept playing it. Everyone hates grinding for Command Points, but a lot of people are doing it anyway.

So what does that look like from the standpoint of people involved in the game, looking at the metrics, and seeing the numbers come in at or above their expectations? Can D3 create a game feature so arduous that people won't grind for it? And if not, what incentive do they have for not building stuff like this? Or is the segment of the player base that's over-represented here so small that it doesn't throw things off at all?

Crowl

Bryan Lambert wrote:

Listening of the tales of people who will pursue a single command point no matter what the cost, I have to wonder how much this hardcore style of play affects how the devs view our feedback.

The main thing to consider is that while potentially arduous, these CP on the nodes are some of the most achievable CP rewards besides the (sadly temporary) one for a full DDQ clear as most cannot readily get them from daily sub or pvp placements, so a 50% increase in the amount of LT's from a 7 day event is nothing to sneeze at even with the abusive RNG in action.

simonsez

Bryan Lambert wrote:

Listening of the tales of people who will pursue a single command point no matter what the cost, I have to wonder how much this hardcore style of play affects how the devs view our feedback.

We saw something similar with Galactus Round 1. Everyone said they hated it. Nearly everyone kept playing it. Everyone hates grinding for Command Points, but a lot of people are doing it anyway.

So what does that look like from the standpoint of people involved in the game, looking at the metrics, and seeing the numbers come in at or above their expectations? Can D3 create a game feature so arduous that people won't grind for it? And if not, what incentive do they have for not building stuff like this? Or is the segment of the player base that's over-represented here so small that it doesn't throw things off at all?

Keep in mind, these are the guys who wouldn't repeat the 20-person anniversary lightning rounds, because they said the grind wore people out. So yeah, they're looking at the data, but not in a way that makes complete sense. They're less concerned with how many people participate, than they are about what the participants do going forward. And they're on shaky ground when it comes to accurately drawing conclusions. Assuming the LR data they cited was accurate, I don't think it was the grind that burned people out; I'm more inclined to think it was the discontent over grinding LR and coming away with just 3 purple Dino covers.

theshadeofopal

I feel like this is one of those things that's been "on a burner" so long they must have misplaced the damn stove.

madok

theshadeofopal wrote:

I fee like this is one of those things that's been "on a burner" so long they must have misplaced the damn stove.

Actually, I think they sold it on Craigslist to pay for the anniversary cake.

udonomefoo

Malcrof wrote:

https://d3go.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=1489

well, if we want to get picky, we can always go back to the original thread..

This is nothing new...

Almost 2 years. Wow. Just wow. My recent "working as intended" thread was created not because I was upset about a server outage or galactus difficulty or any glitch that affected me directly, but a general frustration that the devs really don't give a **** about what the players actually consider "fun" as long as their numbers are coming in where they want them to.

Being reminded that all players have universally hated this since pretty much day one, and no response has ever been given beyond that weak "we don't like it either and we'd like to change it, but hurr durr" video post just brings that all back and makes me want to finally kick this addiction.

Malcrof

udonomefoo wrote:

Malcrof wrote:

https://d3go.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=1489

well, if we want to get picky, we can always go back to the original thread..

This is nothing new...

Almost 2 years. Wow. Just wow. My recent "working as intended" thread was created not because I was upset about a server outage or galactus difficulty or any glitch that affected me directly, but a general frustration that the devs really don't give a tinykitty about what the players actually consider "fun" as long as their numbers are coming in where they want them to.

Being reminded that all players have universally hated this since pretty much day one, and no response has ever been given beyond that weak "we don't like it either and we'd like to change it, but hurr durr" video post just brings that all back and makes me want to finally kick this addiction.

Well, every week, go in to your bosses office and ask for a raise. Complain loudly and often about how you think you need to be paid more for doing work over that you had already done prior, and that you had already been paid for...

the first reward is your commission.. at the end, if you work hard, you get a nice finishing reward.. the other 3/4 rewards are just a bonus for more stuff along the way.. the 20 iso, is your normal base pay.

It won't change, and if it does, it won't matter how often you complain about it. There are loads of rewards out there.

Now this actual thread was started for a different reason, and really has nothing to do with the 20 iso at all.. it has to do with not being able to get the other 3 rewards instead of just the base reward.

As anyone who works on commission can tell you, you are not going to sell every customer, and sometimes you have to go through a dozen to get to that one nice bonus.

udonomefoo

Malcrof wrote:

udonomefoo wrote:

Malcrof wrote:

https://d3go.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=1489

well, if we want to get picky, we can always go back to the original thread..

This is nothing new...

Almost 2 years. Wow. Just wow. My recent "working as intended" thread was created not because I was upset about a server outage or galactus difficulty or any glitch that affected me directly, but a general frustration that the devs really don't give a tinykitty about what the players actually consider "fun" as long as their numbers are coming in where they want them to.

Being reminded that all players have universally hated this since pretty much day one, and no response has ever been given beyond that weak "we don't like it either and we'd like to change it, but hurr durr" video post just brings that all back and makes me want to finally kick this addiction.

Well, every week, go in to your bosses office and ask for a raise. Complain loudly and often about how you think you need to be paid more for doing work over that you had already done prior, and that you had already been paid for...

the first reward is your commission.. at the end, if you work hard, you get a nice finishing reward.. the other 3/4 rewards are just a bonus for more stuff along the way.. the 20 iso, is your normal base pay.

It won't change, and if it does, it won't matter how often you complain about it. There are loads of rewards out there.

Now this actual thread was started for a different reason, and really has nothing to do with the 20 iso at all.. it has to do with not being able to get the other 3 rewards instead of just the base reward.

As anyone who works on commission can tell you, you are not going to sell every customer, and sometimes you have to go through a dozen to get to that one nice bonus.

I can't even imagine how much yoga I'd have to do to be able to stretch far enough for that analogy for work for me.

If my base pay is a crit boost, then you can... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cdYL6Ntty54

GurlBYE

Malcrof wrote:

udonomefoo wrote:

Malcrof wrote:

https://d3go.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=1489

well, if we want to get picky, we can always go back to the original thread..

This is nothing new...

Almost 2 years. Wow. Just wow. My recent "working as intended" thread was created not because I was upset about a server outage or galactus difficulty or any glitch that affected me directly, but a general frustration that the devs really don't give a tinykitty about what the players actually consider "fun" as long as their numbers are coming in where they want them to.

Being reminded that all players have universally hated this since pretty much day one, and no response has ever been given beyond that weak "we don't like it either and we'd like to change it, but hurr durr" video post just brings that all back and makes me want to finally kick this addiction.

Well, every week, go in to your bosses office and ask for a raise. Complain loudly and often about how you think you need to be paid more for doing work over that you had already done prior, and that you had already been paid for...

the first reward is your commission.. at the end, if you work hard, you get a nice finishing reward.. the other 3/4 rewards are just a bonus for more stuff along the way.. the 20 iso, is your normal base pay.

It won't change, and if it does, it won't matter how often you complain about it. There are loads of rewards out there.

Now this actual thread was started for a different reason, and really has nothing to do with the 20 iso at all.. it has to do with not being able to get the other 3 rewards instead of just the base reward.

As anyone who works on commission can tell you, you are not going to sell every customer, and sometimes you have to go through a dozen to get to that one nice bonus.

The argument falls into shambles the very same point in which you equate it to a job.

it's a game, meant to be fun, meant to engage players enough to entice them to spend.
If my odds at getting higher then 20iso are slim, why on earth would I throw money at covers, even worse, why subject myself to more 'work' when this isn't for a living.

simonsez

Malcrof wrote:

the first reward is your commission.. at the end, if you work hard, you get a nice finishing reward.. the other 3/4 rewards are just a bonus for more stuff along the way.. the 20 iso, is your normal base pay.

What is this, a Nike factory?

I'm pretty sure most people see 20 iso as a booby prize, not "normal base pay"

cyineedsn

Oh man this seems fun I think I can roll with this analogy!

If I kept asking my boss for a raise because I felt I was underpaid, and he told me my base pay is 20 iso, and 1 guaranteed reward payout of varying value, and then a random chance at 3 more rewards of varying value if I work longer hours and put in overtime, then I would smile and nod and then go change jobs.

Malcrof

cyineedsn wrote:

Oh man this seems fun I think I can roll with this analogy!

If I kept asking my boss for a raise because I felt I was underpaid, and he told me my base pay is 20 iso, and 1 guaranteed reward payout of varying value, and then a random chance at 3 more rewards of varying value if I work longer hours and put in overtime, then I would smile and nod and then go change jobs.

exactly.. the fact that it is ridiculous is the point i was making..

This is a game not a job.. so why every week do new threads demanding a raise show up? people want more free stuff in less time, or the highest rewards for the least time spent.. doesn't happen in real life, won't happen in a free game either... feel free to tilt at windmills though.

BlackSheep101

Malcrof wrote:

This is a game not a job.. so why every week do new threads demanding a raise show up? people want more free stuff in less time, or the highest rewards for the least time spent.. doesn't happen in real life, won't happen in a free game either... feel free to tilt at windmills though.

On the other hand, they created the current system, the current system generates lots of complaints, they can deal with the complaints or change the system.

cyineedsn

Malcrof wrote:

exactly.. the fact that it is ridiculous is the point i was making..

This is a game not a job.. so why every week do new threads demanding a raise show up? people want more free stuff in less time, or the highest rewards for the least time spent.. doesn't happen in real life, won't happen in a free game either... feel free to tilt at windmills though.

Didn't the community just recently collectively demand for a raise during the Anniversary event and get it in Galactus round 2... (note: this issue is nowhere near as bad as Galactus round 1 was and I am not saying that it should be treated as such)

sc0ville

The complaint that I and most of the people in this thread have is the annoyance of randomness on top of randomness.

I would be 100% happy with the same average of rewards if it meant the quirkiness was lessened. I'm not asking for a raise, I'm asking for consistency in my reward structure, and not being at the mercy of the fates to get something, to once again be at the mercy of the fates to get something else.

We already have a reward situation that requires luck to receive a usable cover from the token, now I need additional luck to earn the points to earn the token in the first place.

I understand the need for randomness, but I just don't need quite so much of it.

simonsez

sc0ville wrote:

The complaint that I and most of the people in this thread have is the annoyance of randomness on top of randomness.

And you didn't even mention the randomness inherent in trying to win a match vs. lv395 opponents, to maybe get the points to get a token to maybe get a cover you need...

udonomefoo

sc0's post came up before mine, and makes basically the same point, but I'll post it anyway:

I guess my issue with your "wanting a raise" analogy is that I'm not necessarily asking for more. I just don't want the mental cheese grater run across my brain that is the rng 20 iso reward.

Don't want to give more? Only ever intended for two rewards or even one to be earned? Fine. Give each node one reward and give 1 iso every time after that. I don't care. Just stop taunting me with things I can see but can't get, purely because of chance. Or even just come out and make a statement that "we don't intend for everyone to get all 4 rewards" so we can stop asking for a fix.

firethorne

GurlBYE wrote:

Malcrof wrote:

udonomefoo wrote:

Malcrof wrote:

https://d3go.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=1489

well, if we want to get picky, we can always go back to the original thread..

This is nothing new...

Almost 2 years. Wow. Just wow. My recent "working as intended" thread was created not because I was upset about a server outage or galactus difficulty or any glitch that affected me directly, but a general frustration that the devs really don't give a tinykitty about what the players actually consider "fun" as long as their numbers are coming in where they want them to.

Being reminded that all players have universally hated this since pretty much day one, and no response has ever been given beyond that weak "we don't like it either and we'd like to change it, but hurr durr" video post just brings that all back and makes me want to finally kick this addiction.

Well, every week, go in to your bosses office and ask for a raise. Complain loudly and often about how you think you need to be paid more for doing work over that you had already done prior, and that you had already been paid for...

the first reward is your commission.. at the end, if you work hard, you get a nice finishing reward.. the other 3/4 rewards are just a bonus for more stuff along the way.. the 20 iso, is your normal base pay.

It won't change, and if it does, it won't matter how often you complain about it. There are loads of rewards out there.

Now this actual thread was started for a different reason, and really has nothing to do with the 20 iso at all.. it has to do with not being able to get the other 3 rewards instead of just the base reward.

As anyone who works on commission can tell you, you are not going to sell every customer, and sometimes you have to go through a dozen to get to that one nice bonus.

The argument falls into shambles the very same point in which you equate it to a job.

it's a game, meant to be fun, meant to engage players enough to entice them to spend.
If my odds at getting higher then 20iso are slim, why on earth would I throw money at covers, even worse, why subject myself to more 'work' when this isn't for a living.

Not to mention we're the ones paying real money. If anything, were the employer, not the employee.

Here's a better adage: The customer is always right.

GritsNGravy

Yes, especially with CP now on nodes, it's just the most insulting thing. I hit a node 8 times once and still couldn't get the CP... Please fix.

CaptainFreaky

I just had to grind the Kingpin essential down to less than 30 points just for one CP. I don't see myself doing that in the future.

I get it that the dev's have to be cautious about their precious economy, but it's just silly (and/or lazy) to design a reward like that.