The greatest flaw of Legendary Tokens

Born2DieNPvP

You can argue all day that the results aren't weighted but you're lying to yourself. It's a pretty easy pattern to see if you map it out. I mean this as no disrespect to any one personally who disagree with me. But it's there. Oh I'll need Collossus next event? I can't believe I pulled him yay! I'm not talking about event tokens either. That sounds helpful until you realize you need 12 more covers. So better whale him. It's subterfuge marketing and they will NEVER admit it. Cuz it goes against how companies profit. That's just how it is. How many posts have we saw from red letters about "the bean counters" will or want allow something. That's called shifting the blame to an evil corporate body that doesn't really exist. If it did do you really think they'd allow their employees to speak out like that? Could you get away with that at your job?

Pylgrim

OneLastGambit wrote:

I think the issue of token odds (on all levels) can be attributed to player confirmation bias:

My legendary token pulls have yielded -
Nick Fury
Kingpin
Thing
Deadpool
OML
Star Lord
Thor
Prof X
IMHB

That's a fairly reasonable spread really, the thing with RNG is that they can appear patterned (and in fact patterns can develop in RNG's) because everytime you pull something all things have an equal chance of coming out - even if you have pulled 10 IW there is an equal chance that your next pull could be another IW as previous pulls don't affect future pulls.

It's infuriating (I personally have voiced my annoyance with MHawkeye being forced upon me 19 times during anniversary) but ultimately because the odds are per pull it means that a run of **** token pulls is actually random.

I think a better idea would be to have the game reduce the odds of pulling a particular token when you have one or more of it already. This way makes it more likely that you will get something different.

NOTE: should add that 4 of my legendary covers came from either standard tokens or heroics (OML came from an event token)

Dude, you're missing the point. I am not saying that odds are weighed or rigged. I know how chance works and I know that my case is just particular bad luck. The point is that I, nor anyone else with my kind of rotten luck should get to feel like this when opening premium rewards obtainable only from expenditure of lots of effort or resources.

OneLastGambit

Pylgrim wrote:

OneLastGambit wrote:

I think the issue of token odds (on all levels) can be attributed to player confirmation bias:

My legendary token pulls have yielded -
Nick Fury
Kingpin
Thing
Deadpool
OML
Star Lord
Thor
Prof X
IMHB

That's a fairly reasonable spread really, the thing with RNG is that they can appear patterned (and in fact patterns can develop in RNG's) because everytime you pull something all things have an equal chance of coming out - even if you have pulled 10 IW there is an equal chance that your next pull could be another IW as previous pulls don't affect future pulls.

It's infuriating (I personally have voiced my annoyance with MHawkeye being forced upon me 19 times during anniversary) but ultimately because the odds are per pull it means that a run of **** token pulls is actually random.

I think a better idea would be to have the game reduce the odds of pulling a particular token when you have one or more of it already. This way makes it more likely that you will get something different.

NOTE: should add that 4 of my legendary covers came from either standard tokens or heroics (OML came from an event token)

Dude, you're missing the point. I am not saying that odds are weighed or rigged. I know how chance works and I know that my case is just particular bad luck. The point is that I, nor anyone else with my kind of rotten luck should get to feel like this when opening premium rewards obtainable only from expenditure of lots of effort or resources.

I see, well I suppose if they implemented the idea that I suggested whereby token odds for covers which you have already maxed out decrease greatly then it may alleviate this issue.

I can understand people wanting a cover sale or trade feature but I can't see D3 doing that as they might believe it will reduce in-game spending (the entire reason they made the game). I do agree with your complaint it's been a personal frustration of mine I just don't see how they change it without affecting the sales

Heartburn

puppychow wrote:

simonsez wrote:

... or maybe one day they'll issue "blank" tokens. EG, you open a legendary and either get a 5*, or a blank 4* that can be used as any cover.

I would luv to see a choose your cover token idea. However, it would diminish D3 sale of 4* covers, so it is very unlikely to get implemented.

Not so sure New releases might have more ppl whale packs when they get one blank cover included. Or they might hoard there legendary until New release. Need to wait and see they could also add a caviot can only be used on 4 stars 3 weeks after release.

tanis3303

How about this: Legendary Tokens give you either a 5* OR a blank Red, Yellow, Green, Blue, Black or Purple 4* cover, to be applied to whatever hero you want with a relevant power color. Done, solved. 99.8% of all bad feelings from opening the game's highest prize and whiffing are removed (pulling a 5* before you're ready and destroying your MMR/scaling not withstanding, of course)

hex706f726368

tanis3303 wrote:

How about this: Legendary Tokens give you either a 5* OR a blank Red, Yellow, Green, Blue, Black or Purple 4* cover, to be applied to whatever hero you want with a relevant power color. Done, solved. 99.8% of all bad feelings from opening the game's highest prize and whiffing are removed (pulling a 5* before you're ready and destroying your MMR/scaling not withstanding, of course)

i also like the idea of picking between 2-3 covers (4*'s & 5*'s) with one cover guaranteed to not be a 5* (for those who want to avoid them) per leg token redeemed.

I'd take either method (yours or the above) though I think your suggestion may be viewed as too player friendly by the publisher/developer. Something needs to be done though, as progression is going to stall for everyone (other than whales) with the current method as they move further into the 4* tier. D3 has to make money, but they also have to maintain a sizable playerbase, otherwise there's no one for the whales to play their new shiny's with.

Right now, I feel like I have less incentive to play for than I did a few seasons ago. I'm well into the 4* transition and I hit ~33% usability on my legendary tokens. The game is demanding more effort for less reward. I don't think that is healthy for the game. I know it's not healthy/appealing for me.

(I'm not f2p, but I'm also not a whale. I don't mind spending to get 1-3 covers of a "good" character rather than wait 3 more months for them to come around in rotation again. But I'm not so much into buying 7+ covers post release)

(i'm also not sure why i'm posting on here as i've given up hope of these boards having any impact on the game, although i suppose galactus 1 actually did, but that was a pretty overwhelming response)

smkspy

Pylgrim wrote:

smkspy wrote:

Isn't this the same complaint that we have for three stars?

other than 2 stars, th entire draw system revolves are piss poor odds, why should LTS be any different...

Copy pasting what I wrote above...

The huge difference is that there are many other venues to grab covers at all those other stages. Need 1*s? Get some facebook friends and after a few days you'll have all 1*s covered. Need 2*s? They are given away as rewards in the prologue, really easy to get progression rewards in events, and are the minimum thing that you'll get from heroic and similar tokens of which you can easily get a couple or more daily by playing just a bit. Need 3*s? You can get up to 5 from PVP and PVE events, and know exactly ones you'll get to see if it's worth your effort. You can get an additional, assured one every day from DDQ as well, and obviously, from time to time from tokens, but those are definitely not the chief venue to get 3*s. 4*s? The only ways to get 4*s are highly competitive or luck-based ones: high progression achievements, 1-2nd placement in es, and opening them in tokens. Getting a legendary token is one of the most difficult achievements in the game, bar placing first or second among a thousand players in an event. Having all that hard work crapped on by a whim of luck is not a nice feeling.

For many people struggling to get 3s, it's the same thing. 900 for 3 star on a pvp is impossible for some people especially after upscaleing issues of 4 and 5 stars on your rosters. That one 3 star during pve is a bit easier, but you really have to grind to get into the top 150 to get that second reward. DDQ is great, if you have that character, but again a slow grind to make them useful.

Regarding the luck favtor, it's just as disappointing to get a **** 2 star from a special event token. The feeling is the same there. And LTS aren't the only way to get a 4 star, I've got just as many 4 stars from regular tokens as I have from LTs. Getting **** you've already got is just an aspect of how the pull system works. I don't see why LTS should suddenly get better treatment when they won't fix the other token pull rates.

To me, as a transitioning 3 star struggling to keep up with constantly rising top tier players in order to complete, this just sounds like the rich complaining they're not getting richer at every instance. If anything, poor draw rates acts as a buffer for those of us striving to Catch up.

If people want better odds, then they should just back to making a particular 4 star the progression achievement. Then you'll know whether it's worth your time or not to compete for it. As it stands, you're still reaping all the other benefits of playing and then the chance you'll get a cover that you which, which if not then sell.

BlackSheep101

smkspy wrote:

That one 3 star during pve is a bit easier, but you really have to grind to get into the top 150 to get that second reward. DDQ is great, if you have that character, but again a slow grind to make them useful.

I just wanted to address this point. I play pve for the legendary tokens and HP. I go for 3 clears of each sub (more for 48 hour subs) and handily reach the top rewards, and also handily place in the top 150 every time. The only grinding I do is if I get impatient and want to reach the LT a little early on the last day. It does not take a hard grind to make top 150 in pve events. It does require that you do more than 2 clears nowadays. (I used to only do 2 full clears and place t150-100, but more people play pve these days for the token.)

smkspy

BlackSheep101 wrote:

smkspy wrote:

That one 3 star during pve is a bit easier, but you really have to grind to get into the top 150 to get that second reward. DDQ is great, if you have that character, but again a slow grind to make them useful.

I just wanted to address this point. I play pve for the legendary tokens and HP. I go for 3 clears of each sub (more for 48 hour subs) and handily reach the top rewards, and also handily place in the top 150 every time. The only grinding I do is if I get impatient and want to reach the LT a little early on the last day. It does not take a hard grind to make top 150 in pve events. It does require that you do more than 2 clears nowadays. (I used to only do 2 full clears and place t150-100, but more people play pve these days for the token.)

This isn't universal true though. I do the exact same as you. I'm playing three times a day on nodes too, and i struggle with each event to finish in the top 100-150 let alone 50-100.

It really is hard to place even for the one 3 star cover if you don't keep a schedule or grind it out. Personally, I feel they should replace the spots with 2 star character rewards with 3s also, and move down the 2 star reward two spots. Doing pve to place is like having to feed a puppy. 3 times a day. If you miss one they'll piss and shat all over your floor.

BlackSheep101

There's room for improvement there, I'll grant you that. It kind of sucks that folks that don't need any of the placement rewards are knocking out those that do just because they want the progression rewards.

Lboogie

I can remember as my 3* roster was getting better having a pve pop and seeing a character i needed as the prize. Guaranteed 2 covers maybe 3 for my effort. I would like to see old 4* characters put as prizes for pve instead of new 4*s. I for one would happily grind a 4 day event for more jean grey covers or kingpin ( who sits at 3 covers despite getting him in april) if the 4* transition is really upon us we need them to move to where 3*s are now. Plus double iso needs to happen more than once a year.... a lot more. I too have been hit with the IW and XF legendary token plauge. Not a good feeling

rollx

I really think they are onto something here with these vaults. I haven't seen the statistics or anything, but I for one know that if there is something that I want in the vault, I'm going to spend my hp on it. I have never spent money or hp on the event covers (out anniversary). I wish they would do this for many things: a pve vault or a pvp vault or a legendary vault. It would be a big game changer and I'd be willing to spend more money than I have if I knew that I would eventually be guaranteed a necessary cover.

mistical725

I have drawn 3 covers I need from 22 lamendary tokens. The first 2 I received, I was so excited...until XFW and IW. Seriously? Next time, I let them pile up to 10. More XFW and IW with a Thing (I needed!) and XPool thrown in. I waited for 10 again, this time, pulled Mr. Fantastic and KP that I needed and more XFW and IW plus a HB color I have maxed.

I've stopped pve grinding to get the lamendary tokens because I'm tired of getting tinykitty from them. I don't push to 1300 in pvp because the HP cost just isn't worth it for another 1000 iso. It would be nice if you could at least pick the color of the cover you received to make these less annoying. There are plenty 4* covers I need; however, XFW and IW are not them and I'm tired of getting them from lamendary tokens.

ZeroKarma

And here I thought, from the title, this thread was in response to the long string of Korean spam clogging the boards.

I don't mind the legendaries being random, and I'm pretty certain there is a fairly even distribution of covers from these tokens. For every one who has gotten **** every time, there is someone who has been on fire. It will even out over time.

My largest concern with these packs is the 5* luck. I've got 3 surfers on well more than 30 pulls. I know people with more at half the amount. If your ability to compete in the game due to random luck is affected then there is a problem.

Pylgrim

tanis3303 wrote:

How about this: Legendary Tokens give you either a 5* OR a blank Red, Yellow, Green, Blue, Black or Purple 4* cover, to be applied to whatever hero you want with a relevant power color. Done, solved. 99.8% of all bad feelings from opening the game's highest prize and whiffing are removed (pulling a 5* before you're ready and destroying your MMR/scaling not withstanding, of course)

I like this idea best so far.

smkspy wrote:

For many people struggling to get 3s, it's the same thing. 900 for 3 star on a pvp is impossible for some people especially after upscaleing issues of 4 and 5 stars on your rosters. That one 3 star during pve is a bit easier, but you really have to grind to get into the top 150 to get that second reward. DDQ is great, if you have that character, but again a slow grind to make them useful.

You get a 3* at 800 not 900. And placing top 100 in PVP to get another one usually requires only 600-700 points which is perfectly possible with a 2* roster. Nevertheless, you are missing the point. Regardless of difficulty, you /may/ get up to five 3*s per PVP and PVE. You can only get up to two 4* covers per event, and one of those two go only to 2 people out of 1000.

Regarding the luck favtor, it's just as disappointing to get a **** 2 star from a special event token. The feeling is the same there. And LTS aren't the only way to get a 4 star, I've got just as many 4 stars from regular tokens as I have from LTs. Getting **** you've already got is just an aspect of how the pull system works. I don't see why LTS should suddenly get better treatment when they won't fix the other token pull rates.

The difference is that heroic and event tokens are given away by the handful. Between progression rewards at PVE and PVP events, DDQ, LRs, and other random stuff such as daily rewards, it's easy to get 3-5 of those tokens per day! You open a sufficiently large sample of tokens that you get to see the good stuff among the chaff often enough. Hell, let's not forget that you also get 3*s from standard tokens which are given by the dozen. Legendary tokens are not only much scarcer, they are also much harder to get. Each botched draw weighs much more.

To me, as a transitioning 3 star struggling to keep up with constantly rising top tier players in order to complete, this just sounds like the rich complaining they're not getting richer at every instance. If anything, poor draw rates acts as a buffer for those of us striving to Catch up.

To me, as someone who already completed my transition in much more difficult circumstances than you since I didn't have all the modern boosts added to prize amount and ratios this sounds like someone not having idea of how easy they have it, and, enviously, relishing the misfortune on the people perceived to be above.

If people want better odds, then they should just back to making a particular 4 star the progression achievement. Then you'll know whether it's worth your time or not to compete for it. As it stands, you're still reaping all the other benefits of playing and then the chance you'll get a cover that you which, which if not then sell.

If you actually read my initial post carefully, you'd see that I'm not advocating either for increased odds or higher amount of tokens. I only want a way to better control the frustrating (again, because scarcity and difficulty of acquiring) effect of luck.

VA5

I think they should have a trade in program. I cash in about 3 3three star covers a day, and have half the fours maxed.
the IOSO given for covers is ridiculously low.

I suggest 21 points required for an L token. 3 star covers worth one point, 4 star covers worth 7 points and 5 star covers worth 21 (hope no one has doubles of these yet). With this system getting a bad pull from the L token will have less of a sting and give long term players some reason to get the 1000 point 4 cover the already have or even place top in pvp to get more 3's.

mohio

I had planned on hoarding all my tokens until they released the second 5*, but then Iceman turned out to be pretty awesome (and Cyke and RHulk no slouches either), so I decided I'd wait for him to enter tokens before opening. So...yesterday I finally opened all my tokens. I amassed 24 in total, got most of the PvE ones, and probably half or less of the PvP ones. Anyway, I screen recorded it in case people were interested. So here goes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IuXXi3X9g3o

Quick recap of my pulls, and since you guys don't know my roster I'll outline what was useful too.

2 Surfer covers! - Awesome! I was actually hoping once I saw that second 5* it was another Surfer and not OML, so yay for that.
5 4hor covers - have had her maxed for so long, kind of annoying that 20% of my pulls were her. But I get to cover max my dupe so...
3 JG - needed the 2 purple, but not the green, these were the other big highlight (mine is now 4/2/5)
3 Mr. F - He seems pretty lame, and now at 2/4/4 I doubt I actually "needed" all 3 since I think 5 in blue is probably good
3 Ant-Man - I only needed one of these since mine was 5/3/4. Went 5/3/5 but if anyone wants to convince me otherwise I'm all ears.
2 Elektras - Elektra Purple is my personal bugaboo. I think I have pulled over 10 of these, so it is absolutely fitting (and unsurprising) to have opened one. Also at 5/3/5 I only need her black.
Carnage Green - now 5/2/5 so good pull
XFDP Purp - now 5/1/3 so good pull
Cyke Yellow - didn't whale him so that's a good one.
XF Black - Who still needs him at this point? (sorry I know some of you do, but I'm >600 days in)
Prof Purp - Useful, brings him to 5/4/0
Star-Lord Red - I've got mine at 5/4/4 - Kind of want to go 5/3/5 but it makes yellow really bad so haven't quite decided yet. Anyway - might be useful

So final tally - 2/24 5*, pretty much spot on the odds, no complaints. 12 or 13 of 24 "useful" covers. The clumping is sorta strong. All those 4hor, JG, MrF, and Ant-Man covers, nothing for Thing, Iceman, or RHulk which I would have really loved to get more covers for. Although also no IW, Fury, IMHB, KP, or Flaptain covers, which I didn't particularly need/want (really need 2 HB red and one KP black, but that's it for them so unlikely to have gotten those exact ones). I'm more than familiar with math, so I know this is not out of the ordinary, or some kind of anomaly, just wish I had a few more useful covers for the newer chars and fewer 4hors and Elektras.

Also, I'm not sure a vault would have really helped me. Out of the 57 4* covers available in legendary tokens, I didn't need (either already maxed or at 3 and don't want 4/5) something like 26 or 27 of those. Unless I got free rerolls on my vault until i needed almost everything, I would expect ~50% useful covers (little more since all the 5* are useful). This isn't to say it's a bad idea, just that I got right about the statistical average with my pulls, so something that forces that average on us wouldn't yield any better results in my case.

In the end I was pretty happy to have at least gotten average pulls for 5* (and 2 different Surfer covers - my favorite character and I've been waiting on him since I started playing). I guess my 4* pulls were a bit subpar, 10 out of 22 useful (45%), when my odds were closer to 30/57 (53%), but my odds suggest only 1-2 more useful covers than I got, so it's hard to really be upset about that (seems way better than a lot of you guys in this thread). The two much-needed JG covers were so good that it sways things towards the positive side. Had those been other needed covers, but say Flaptain or even RHulk or Iceman (they're so far from useable), I might be singing a much different tune right now.

Pylgrim

I got my 13th LT from Ant-Man vs JG in DDQ. It was the third usable cover I've drawn! Still, no 5*s and the cover I got pushed that colour to 5, while the other two colours of that character (Fisk) remain at 1 and 2, basically setting me up for future disillusionment. I hate being this pessimistic, but It's hard not to based on experience.

SnowcaTT

Opened two legendaries today. Threw them both out. When I opened my legendaries, I threw out 5 or 6 of them. Need more than half of the covers of 4*'s. Incredibly frustrating, to say the least.

Why go for 1300 or PVE progression? No reason to spend anything when you aren't actually rewarded for it.

fmftint

71.1% chance of pulling a cover I can use, yet I continue to pull covers for the few 4*s that I have covered