**** X-23 (All New Wolverine) ****

Unknown

Buret0 wrote:

vinicius18 wrote:

I hate slow characters. They formulated a contradictory character than it is because it has always been quite fast. She can do a lot of damage in 5-5-3 with Ant-Man and Elektra. About Hulkbuster and OML, it has no level to play next to them because I consider it a 3 *. If it were an Age of Apocalypse or X-Force would make sense she fight alongside the two. In the All New Wolverines ideal for she is fighting alongside Patch and Daken, which are the same level as her, 3 *. About Elektra, beyond disarm traps she will steal their high Strikes tiles. With Elektra and Ant-Man can choose which best shot during the match.

1) You don't see a lot of Electras in the game.
2) She will steal and gift strike tiles, giving you a cheaper purple.
3) She needs purple to steal your tiles, which means matching your trap tile.

This isn't a slow character. 8/P/6 or 8/P/12 isn't slow. And with 14,000 health and a bit of true healing, she's going to stick around through AoE attacks. She's much stronger than you give credit.

Elektra is excellent in pve. Make easy the node Bullseye 2* and 2 Muscles 298 with her. Precisely because she steal and take three Strikes is your advantage. These three Strikes tiles will disarm the trap. Also, no problem if I match the trap because it has the shadow step to reverse it and causing further damage to the Strikes stolen. There is no Strikes on the table, no problem. I use Pym Particles it will disarm the trap.

dkffiv

Buret0 wrote:

vinicius18 wrote:

I hate slow characters. They formulated a contradictory character than it is because it has always been quite fast. She can do a lot of damage in 5-5-3 with Ant-Man and Elektra. About Hulkbuster and OML, it has no level to play next to them because I consider it a 3 *. If it were an Age of Apocalypse or X-Force would make sense she fight alongside the two. In the All New Wolverines ideal for she is fighting alongside Patch and Daken, which are the same level as her, 3 *. About Elektra, beyond disarm traps she will steal their high Strikes tiles. With Elektra and Ant-Man can choose which best shot during the match.

1) You don't see a lot of Electras in the game.
2) She will steal and gift strike tiles, giving you a cheaper purple.
3) She needs purple to steal your tiles, which means matching your trap tile.

This isn't a slow character. 8/P/6 or 8/P/12 isn't slow. And with 14,000 health and a bit of true healing, she's going to stick around through AoE attacks. She's much stronger than you give credit.

She's incredibly slow. Even if you get enough ap to purple there is a very low chance you'll even be able to proc it in the next few turns. Green is decent but you feel compelled to use it with 9 red. A passive, an active that requires 25 ap to get the full value out of and a trap based attack that is frequently either out of reach or disabled is slow.

Unknown

Meh, all this talk about slow and wait until...but to "me" - MOST of the new 4* characters are like that, requiring either an obscene amount of AP to do heavy dmg or some condition that requires a while, whether it be strike tiles, protect tiles, etc. How is this any different? Falcap wants to fire off yellow, Antman has to call his move twice, Iceman has to go twice, RH needs to half double the AP, Cyclops needs the TU, IMHB needs high amount of red, Kingpin has to get out countdown tiles, etc.

The only difference I see here? She has two different colors, so a single battery like Fist or SWitch won't do it, and unlike Cyclops, she doesn't feed herself, but that's still in line with most of the 4*. So is she slow, or are some of us just used to really fast? Seems to me she'll just fall in line with the 'gut' of the 4*...effective, strong, but not necessarily an 'iWin in ten moves' character.
- Unreall

eaise

Unreallystic wrote:

Meh, all this talk about slow and wait until...but to "me" - MOST of the new 4* characters are like that, requiring either an obscene amount of AP to do heavy dmg or some condition that requires a while, whether it be strike tiles, protect tiles, etc. How is this any different? Falcap wants to fire off yellow, Antman has to call his move twice, Iceman has to go twice, RH needs to half double the AP, Cyclops needs the TU, IMHB needs high amount of red, Kingpin has to get out countdown tiles, etc.

The only difference I see here? She has two different colors, so a single battery like Fist or SWitch won't do it, and unlike Cyclops, she doesn't feed herself, but that's still in line with most of the 4*. So is she slow, or are some of us just used to really fast? Seems to me she'll just fall in line with the 'gut' of the 4*...effective, strong, but not necessarily an 'iWin in ten moves' character.
- Unreall

She is good like many of the other 4*s you mentioned. But she's not meta game changing like HB or Jean. And those are the characters people want to see. Characters that mean we would see some team other than Jeanbuster once we get passed 1K in PvP.

dkffiv

Unreallystic wrote:

Meh, all this talk about slow and wait until...but to "me" - MOST of the new 4* characters are like that, requiring either an obscene amount of AP to do heavy dmg or some condition that requires a while, whether it be strike tiles, protect tiles, etc. How is this any different? Falcap wants to fire off yellow, Antman has to call his move twice, Iceman has to go twice, RH needs to half double the AP, Cyclops needs the TU, IMHB needs high amount of red, Kingpin has to get out countdown tiles, etc.

Falcap is bad, Antman is decent but at least he's fast. For the super nuke he needs 18 of a specific AP (which is so slow it almost never happens) but his individual moves are 9/9/7 and are all good on their own (assuming blue has something to steal).

Iceman is fast as hell, 6 blue AP to knock one char out of a fight feels like prenerf Spider-Man broken. Fire off an 8 AP purple and you more than likely have enough blue to cast it again - if the CD is destroyed you can stun another target for 4 turns and if it wasn't you get an 8k nuke. Green is on the border of being slow but if it goes off it does a ton of damage.

Red Hulk has a 7 AP move that destroys all of an opponent's green and basically gives you enough to cast your own. The "bad" version of H&A does 930 damage per AP if 3 targets are up / 620 for 2. X23 caps out at 570 for a single target with the bad version and doesn't have an accelerator.

Cyclops is tricky because when he gets yellow off, TU tiles become a source of (usually red) for him and most of the time its a waste of a turn for the player to deny TU. His damage isn't off the charts but his moves are quick and you usually get hit by multiple ones before he goes down.

IMHB red is similar to X23 green (though it has a higher damage ratio) but his blue has the potential to cascade into enough red to cause trouble. If his black goes off its almost game over from the strike tiles. Take that into consideration - 11 black and 1 target is almost certainly dead from his red next turn and you're going to be taking 1k+ match damage unless you can neutralize the strike tiles. 10-12 purple AP with X23 and one target may get killed if you ever trigger the trap and who knows when that will be.

Kingpin isn't broken but I feel he's a very solid character (and for the most part only used in PvP if boosted). 6 black can deal 3 or 5k damage which sometimes is enough to knock out a pesky target. Purple isn't fantastic but it drains some of the enemy AP and accelerates your own yellow. Yellow is slow to ramp up (fast to cast but you have to wait for the resolution timer) but once you start getting them off its a pretty consistent source of damage.

Unreallystic wrote:

The only difference I see here? She has two different colors, so a single battery like Fist or SWitch won't do it, and unlike Cyclops, she doesn't feed herself, but that's still in line with most of the 4*. So is she slow, or are some of us just used to really fast? Seems to me she'll just fall in line with the 'gut' of the 4*...effective, strong, but not necessarily an 'iWin in ten moves' character.

Her green is similar to prenerf Xforce and his green wasn't the strongest piece of his kit. His green was good when it could knock out most 3* in a single hit (and you could boost +3/+6 AP to get it off really fast). Her red is okay and her purple is garbage considering the cost. Tie this into the fact that the AI will never play her properly (which remember is far far worse than for most other characters) means if you use her in PvP you will most likely be one of the easiest targets available.

TLCstormz

From now on, can you all please please please please PLEASE think to also mention how these newly released characters would stack up to a 2 star or 3 star player's roster, please? Every single thread of every single one of these new characters within the last year, at the very least, is all about what YOU think is best for YOUR OWN tier of players, but think of how valuable your knowledge would be to everyone that is groveling beneath you.

Think about it, and please share which characters would be beneficial for 2* and 3* players, please.

Thank you.

dkffiv

TLCstormz wrote:

From now on, can you all please please please please PLEASE think to also mention how these newly released characters would stack up to a 2 star or 3 star player's roster, please? Every single thread of every single one of these new characters within the last year, at the very least, is all about what YOU think is best for YOUR OWN tier of players, but think of how valuable your knowledge would be to everyone that is groveling beneath you.

Think about it, and please share which characters would be beneficial for 2* and 3* players, please.

Thank you.

4*s are largely unusable unless you have near maximum covers. If you've obtained 9+ covers you aren't a 2* player. If you're a 3* player with that many covers we're going to assume you have the best ones maxed out and check their synergy.

I'm fairly certain a maxed out 3* Cyclops functions a lot better than say a 4/3/3 Hulkbuster but someone with more experience can chime in. Similarly a 5/5/3 Patch is probably better than a 2/3/2 X23. I personally didn't touch my Jean Grey until I had 11 covers for her, then bought the last 2.

stryke

dkffiv wrote:

4*s are largely unusable unless you have near maximum covers. If you've obtained 9+ covers you aren't a 2* player. If you're a 3* player with that many covers we're going to assume you have the best ones maxed out and check their synergy.

You say that but as I got two covers in the pve I figured I'd have a laugh and try her in the pvp... and to my great surprise it's actually kinda working. Paired her with a boosted to 220 Spider-man and 166 Daken which means I can reliably get off her Tracking thanks to all the strike tiles and they're steam rolling over solid 3* teams with boosted to max character like Gamora. Going to be absolutely terribad in defence but even with the only the one cover in Savage Healing combined with Daken's regen and Spidey's defence tiles they can cruise along for ages without having to think about medpacks.

Sure it is no way optimal, and yet it works despite that.

Polares

dkffiv wrote:

...

IMHB red is similar to X23 green (though it has a higher damage ratio) but his blue has the potential to cascade into enough red to cause trouble. If his black goes off its almost game over from the strike tiles. Take that into consideration - 11 black and 1 target is almost certainly dead from his red next turn and you're going to be taking 1k+ match damage unless you can neutralize the strike tiles. 10-12 purple AP with X23 and one target may get killed if you ever trigger the trap and who knows when that will be.

...

But you forget that you can match the trap yourself and then you do like 7500+ damage and create a 500 strike tile, so it is quite similar to Overdrive. And then the next cast will be 11. I think almost 90% of the time the user will match purple himself, the next cast is cheaper and with the strike tile on the board you do some serious damage, and 7500 damage is still good.

She is above average for me, green is still quite fast and she can heal, which is always good, and if you team her with somebody like Ant man or any other cheap strike tiles producer purple can be really good. What It is really a pitty is that green is not something like "3500 damage + strike tile" always, that small change would help her a lot, A LOT.

Howzat

Because of the announcement on Marvel.com comparing Tracking Prey to Ambush i had assumed matching the trap yourself would result in it regenerating on another tile (even though it was never specified in the power description). I think a little bit of damage reduction on self match with trap regen would be a fair balance to allow her to be more self sufficient.

But the biggest design misstep is Holding Back. Absolutely no reason to have this require 1 cast with 9 to convert to Berserker Fury. We get you guys just came up with a new "cool" feature with OML, but it wasn't needed here. Needed to be more in line with Feral Claws from 2* Wolvie where the strikes are generated based on AP condition as base, not use once with none generated. If she could generate faster herself she would (again) be more self sufficient, and thats what every good (and better) character is. She shouldn't have to bring Daken and Switch to be viable.

eaise

Howzat wrote:

Because of the announcement on Marvel.com comparing Tracking Prey to Ambush i had assumed matching the trap yourself would result in it regenerating on another tile (even though it was never specified in the power description). I think a little bit of damage reduction on self match with trap regen would be a fair balance to allow her to be more self sufficient.

But the biggest design misstep is Holding Back. Absolutely no reason to have this require 1 cast with 9 to convert to Berserker Fury. We get you guys just came up with a new "cool" feature with OML, but it wasn't needed here. Needed to be more in line with Feral Claws from 2* Wolvie where the strikes are generated based on AP condition as base, not use once with none generated. If she could generate faster herself she would (again) be more self sufficient, and thats what every good (and better) character is. She shouldn't have to bring Daken and Switch to be viable.

Purple trap should definitely regenerate itself. It even makes sense with the name. Tracking Prey. You match it yourself is equivalent to finding a footprint. I think they should completely take away the damage when you match it. But have it regenerate and add the strike tile. Just makes more sense that way.

I also think they should've done something better with the green. Fist has a similar move. With X amount of AP ability does this instead. They should've just used that with X23

dkffiv

Polares wrote:

dkffiv wrote:

...

IMHB red is similar to X23 green (though it has a higher damage ratio) but his blue has the potential to cascade into enough red to cause trouble. If his black goes off its almost game over from the strike tiles. Take that into consideration - 11 black and 1 target is almost certainly dead from his red next turn and you're going to be taking 1k+ match damage unless you can neutralize the strike tiles. 10-12 purple AP with X23 and one target may get killed if you ever trigger the trap and who knows when that will be.

...

But you forget that you can match the trap yourself and then you do like 7500+ damage and create a 500 strike tile, so it is quite similar to Overdrive. And then the next cast will be 11. I think almost 90% of the time the user will match purple himself, the next cast is cheaper and with the strike tile on the board you do some serious damage, and 7500 damage is still good.

She is above average for me, green is still quite fast and she can heal, which is always good, and if you team her with somebody like Ant man or any other cheap strike tiles producer purple can be really good. What It is really a pitty is that green is not something like "3500 damage + strike tile" always, that small change would help her a lot, A LOT.

That's taking into account self matching, self matching doesn't cause the trap to respawn like Ambush. Even when the player casts it on an optimal board (2 purple matches available) there is still at least a 33% chance the tile will be unmatchable. Tie this into the fact that the cost is variable and I would usually cast it when only 1 match was available (before my strike tiles started to disappear). I agree that its similar to Overdrive except that it has a high chance to whiff with a low probability that it will cause immediate damage or even come into play at all.

Think about all the PvE nodes with DD and another red user (like Punisher) - aren't you relieved when he casts Ambush instead of Retribution? The only thing that sucks about Ambush is when the enemy matches it and it gets shuffled around for him to use again, at least X23 won't double tap you.

stryke wrote:

dkffiv wrote:

4*s are largely unusable unless you have near maximum covers. If you've obtained 9+ covers you aren't a 2* player. If you're a 3* player with that many covers we're going to assume you have the best ones maxed out and check their synergy.

You say that but as I got two covers in the pve I figured I'd have a laugh and try her in the pvp... and to my great surprise it's actually kinda working. Paired her with a boosted to 220 Spider-man and 166 Daken which means I can reliably get off her Tracking thanks to all the strike tiles and they're steam rolling over solid 3* teams with boosted to max character like Gamora. Going to be absolutely terribad in defence but even with the only the one cover in Savage Healing combined with Daken's regen and Spidey's defence tiles they can cruise along for ages without having to think about medpacks.

Sure it is no way optimal, and yet it works despite that.

I obtained 5 covers from PvE /soft capped her and while boosted in PvP her stats are: 9648 life, green does 1365 damage, red heals 325 a match, purple does 3413 or 2275 + 134 strike tile. Those numbers are very similar to a maxed out Patch, with 2 covers she would be significantly worse.

Gagutz

Using for PVE only....

What would you say is the best build?

aergia

Gagutz wrote:

Using for PVE only....

What would you say is the best build?

Probably 5/5/3. Her healing at 5 is pretty awesome, and I think green at 5 is pretty much agreed on for best build on any mode (unless your team comp specifically doesn't use her green).

simonsez

I don't think you need 5 in healing for PvE. Just take her to prologue if you come out of a battle where she didn't heal fast enough. I can't see giving up all that purple damage vs. overscaled opponents.

dkffiv

Gagutz wrote:

Using for PVE only....

What would you say is the best build?

535 regardless. PVE wise you can build around her and pvp you still hope for the random game winning purple.

BP was actually decent with her, although you would need a red and preferably decent blue user. Cmag 4hor are probably most viable. 4clops if you manage to get covers, Vision is okay but he won't be able to tank tu unless he's boosted.

Blade doesn't really work due to conflict with purple, I don't think sw is great due to terrible color coverage. Daken + Colossus or 3clops is rainbow but Daken usually isn't viable for hard nodes due to his low health.

Gagutz

(This is for PVE purposes only)

After testing her with 4 star .... they work so well together.

I have Cyclops under leveled so his yellow move produces green ap upon matching team up tiles.

His blue move generates the red needed to get into strike tile version of her green move..

Plenty of board movement and opportunity for cascades + self heal matches...


Just not sure about her trap tile move...

I had X23, Prof X, and Witch set off three abilities at once (very cool.. but not gonna work as a team)


Then... Scarlet Witch makes the matches go even longer banking on her pink to give you trap tiles and pinks on the board to trigger it... Waste of a good combo..

I'm loving the heal ability at 5... Still need to test it more.. Take a big hit and recover right back...

Feeling like her pink is such a gamble and the traps are like a lottery ticket out there... the only ones to make them go off/ you casting them more often hurt your overall team...

5/5/3???

notamutant

https://youtu.be/KC_hqanbFZg

My video is finally up.

vudu3

dkffiv wrote:

535 regardless. PVE wise you can build around her and pvp you still hope for the random game winning purple.

I'm not sold on 5/3/5 quite yet. Because her healing requires X-23 to tank green/red/purple you're only going to heal on one or two colors in most fights. For example, you mention pairing her with 4* Thor or 4* Cyclops but both will tank red. At 3 covers X-23 will only heal for 652 per match whereas at 5 covers she'll heal for 1,520 health per match. It's going to take twice as long to heal after getting hit with a nuke so in many cases she's unlikely to survive a second one.

Sure, purple is really strong at 5 covers but it's too expensive in most cases and way to unreliable to count on. I'm leaning towards 5/5/3 because while a random game-winning purple is nice, I think you're going to win more fights by letting X-23 absorb the heavy blows and then healing back up within a few turns.

Polares

vudu3 wrote:

dkffiv wrote:

535 regardless. PVE wise you can build around her and pvp you still hope for the random game winning purple.

I'm not sold on 5/3/5 quite yet. Because her healing requires X-23 to tank green/red/purple you're only going to heal on one or two colors in most fights. For example, you mention pairing her with 4* Thor or 4* Cyclops but both will tank red. At 3 covers X-23 will only heal for 652 per match whereas at 5 covers she'll heal for 1,520 health per match. It's going to take twice as long to heal after getting hit with a nuke so in many cases she's unlikely to survive a second one.

Sure, purple is really strong at 5 covers but it's too expensive in most cases and way to unreliable to count on. I'm leaning towards 5/5/3 because while a random game-winning purple is nice, I think you're going to win more fights by letting X-23 absorb the heavy blows and then healing back up within a few turns.

This one is hard, I like purple but it is a pitty it is a trap tile. It would be better if it was a countdown that if matched/destroyed before time it would do half damage+strike tile and full reaching 0. Traps are so easy to dismantle, I never remember that other purple traps can dismantle yours (Doom disarmed mine in the last PvP a couple of times).

I think you need to pair her with someone like IMHB or BP (buffed). If you use before battleplan or overdrive purple becomes so much cheaper. And you need to cast it when there are a lot of purple matches possible. I still think that 95% of the time I am going to be the one matching the trap.

But yeah, 1500 heal every match is nice too...