4* DDQ, a debate

BlackSheep101

Quebbster wrote:

Keep slugging it out. Once you get a few more maxed 3* (and can play around with the weekly boosted characters!) 1000 points should be within reach. Heck, it doesn't even take that long to reach it any more when 60+ point matches are available...

This has not been my experience lately. By the time I reach 800, 60+ point matches disappear. I spend minutes skipping just to find a 40+ match, and by the time I get to 900 I start to get hit for more than I bring in. The advice is to shield at that point to let the retaliations dry up, then hop to 1000, but by then I'm out of play time. It's also not feasible for me to join the Line dance to queue up high value targets when they hop and wait politely for them to finish so that I can finish my climb.

So I'm left with PVE, which I generally find achievable, shield sim once a season, and the season progression. These are nice additions that will accelerate my transition. I think what rankles people is that folks with established 4* rosters have all these things too, plus a much easier time getting to 1000 in PVP, plus the 4* DDQ. My transition is sped up, but the people I'm chasing are pulling away even faster.

I haven't even gotten to the point where it's time to level up my 4* roster. It's already taking months to level up my fully covered 3*s with DDQ every day and many lightning rounds each week. I'm seeing similar complaints around the forum about the amount of iso needed to keep a roster growing. Hopefully that issue is addressed soon.

All in all, I feel like I'm better off than I was before legendaries were released, and I still have fun playing the game. I just understand why many people take issue with the way the 4* transition works in general and 4* ddq specifically.

Unknown

The problem is the 4 star node of DDQ is not meant for people transitioning to 4 star territory. It's for those with healthy 4 star rosters that need a chance to earn a 5 star, or strengthen their other 4 stars. People felt like it would be like the DDP 3 star node, which is for strengthening your 3 star characters you already have.

I think a special DDQ only token, or a new token altogether for other progressions, that is 90% 3 star, 10% 4 star, would be really useful, but I doubt that will happen because we already have DDQ giving a guaranteed 3 star.

firethorne

djpt05 wrote:

I'm in a similar boat as the OP. I usually play 2-3 hours a day, on day ~680 and have almost all 3*s maxed. I'm in a casual alliance as I don't have the time to put in the numbers for a top 100 alliance.

I decided to make a run for 1000 pts for the first time in the Black Vortex PvP. I shielded once I got around 980 pts, broke shield when I thought I found a target I could quickly beat (b/c all those 3*s have such quickly activating powers...) and immediately lost 40 pts to a team of maxed 4*s.

PvP Legendary "only" requires 3 clears a day for 3.5 - 7 days straight which is pretty tough for me with a job and child.

While I understand everyone's argument about entitlement I wish the 4* community would at least agree that a 3* - 4* transition is not as simple as they are making it out to be. It's practically stalled at this point.

Pretty much exactly where I am too. I think it is shades of the Galactus design philosophy. More than 100 alliances being able to win is more than expected. Unless you can treat the game as full time job, you're going to hit a wall.

mutimloh

djpt05 wrote:

While I understand everyone's argument about entitlement I wish the 4* community would at least agree that a 3* - 4* transition is not as simple as they are making it out to be. It's practically stalled at this point.

The main thing with the 3*-4* transition is that it will take time. However, my 2*-3* transition took a long time too. As a completely F2P player, I don't see why my 3*-4* transition should be any faster.

Having said that, I am getting burned out with the game and getting a 4* roster sooner rather than later would go a long way to getting me excited about the game again. From a developer perspective though, there's no real reason for them to cater to me since I haven't given them a single dollar.

Unknown

Jamie Madrox wrote:

I think OP and like minded posters are missing the point.

DDQ is NOT for you. It's for players with established, but still lacking, 4* rosters to help them fill out their 4* characters and progress to 5*.

I'd hate to see how much whining you would come up with if you actually had to progress at the rate that the veteran players have. When I made the transition to there was so many fewer ways to do so. Be thankful for what you have.

Thanks for the condescending insult, but you ought to check my forum join date. I'm fully aware of what the 2-3* transition was like (as well as the old 1-2* transition TYVM), and that's what the 3-4* transition now is like, but worse because you need more points for progression or placement.

PeterGibbons316

firethorne wrote:

djpt05 wrote:

I'm in a similar boat as the OP. I usually play 2-3 hours a day, on day ~680 and have almost all 3*s maxed. I'm in a casual alliance as I don't have the time to put in the numbers for a top 100 alliance.

I decided to make a run for 1000 pts for the first time in the Black Vortex PvP. I shielded once I got around 980 pts, broke shield when I thought I found a target I could quickly beat (b/c all those 3*s have such quickly activating powers...) and immediately lost 40 pts to a team of maxed 4*s.

PvP Legendary "only" requires 3 clears a day for 3.5 - 7 days straight which is pretty tough for me with a job and child.

While I understand everyone's argument about entitlement I wish the 4* community would at least agree that a 3* - 4* transition is not as simple as they are making it out to be. It's practically stalled at this point.

Pretty much exactly where I am too. I think it is shades of the Galactus design philosophy. More than 100 alliances being able to win is more than expected. Unless you can treat the game as full time job, you're going to hit a wall.

Sounds like you (and several others in this thread) are trying to FINISH at 1k. Stop doing that. Most events I can hit 1k without a shield with about a day left in the event, using only 3* characters. I've done it with a loaner, a 166 and a boosted 240 before.

From there I can shield and attempt to hop higher in the next day to get to 1300, or keep shielding to finish high and keep that 1k for the season score, or if it's off-season I usually just stay unshielded and let people knock me back down.

Talking to people on LINE I'm sure can help (I've never done it successfully, but I understand how it works), but you can find your own targets by periodically checking the leaderboard. Always try to have an idea of some of the players in the top 10. As you are cycling through nodes, if you see a name you recognize - leave it, don't attack, wait for them to climb and then hit it later when it is worth more points.

I hit 1300 for the first time this past event because very early on I found the top 2 guys and saved those nodes for over a day. I was able to climb to 1090 and then shielded with about 38h left in the event. Next morning I broke shield early when no one was on and hit both of them for nearly 150 points then shielded again. A little later I noticed the top guy was hopping so I started skipping until I had him in queue. Hit him later for another 75 and finished with 1310. Obviously this is absolutely best case scenario, and those targets aren't always going to end up being with 75 points. But you get the idea.

To be really successful in PvP requires a bit more than just blindly attacking the highest pt nodes as soon as you come to them.

stowaway

What I'd like to see them do is run an event along the lines of "Growth Industry" for 5 days, leading up to the 4* DDQ node, and awarding one cover for the 4* character that's featured that rotation. You're one cover stronger, and even if you still can't beat the grudge match, you're not going to have as much bitterness about it.

I think the 4* DDQ node itself is fine. I've beaten it every time but one, twice with characters that only had four covers (though I was lucky that they were the right covers, like Deadpool's red). The one time I didn't beat it was Nick Fury. But I've pulled two of his covers from Legendaries since then, and he's coming up for me in Resupply before long, so the next time his node comes around, I know I'll be able to beat it. That feels like progress to me.

PeterGibbons316

CybrGamr wrote:

It has nothing to do with "entitlement" - it has to do with progressing - and having a realistic way to progress...

I'm going to stop you right here. A very short time ago there were no legendary tokens, and there were still people with developed 4* rosters. All of the ways to progress to that point are still currently available. So the people who have developed 4* characters and can earn legendary tokens with them are doing so. Because they progressed using the same "unrealistic" methods that everyone else can use.

THIS is why people complaining come off as being entitled. The people who are earning the tokens are doing so because they took all of the old avenues to get to that point. All of these avenues are still available to people trying to progress into 4* land, and instead of pursuing them, they are complaining about their inability to skip the step that other vets with 4* rosters had to take to get to where they are now.

TheWerebison

I am in the 4* transition, and I do not feel I need to win every 4*DDQ.

So far I've only won 3 of the...7?: Nick Fury, IW, and Hulkbuster. All 3 of them are between 166 and 180. My XF only has 2 in surgical strike. He put up a good fight, but couldn't quite cut it. My 0/0/1 Deadpool wasn't gonna beat his opponent. My 115 Thoress had the best shot at, at 3/1/1. I had a NEAR perfect board, charged tiles everywhere, threw 3 underpowered reds at Rag and came soooooo close, but to no avail. And I did not feel cheated.

I'll say it again: the reason it is so hard is because it is for a token that has a chance at a 5*. This gives it tremendous value.

I have a few maxed 3*. Everyone else is waiting on iso. But I can still hit 1k in pvp a lot of the time. Not every time, but a lot.

Don't worry about the 4*DDQ. They've said they're coming up with ways to help the 3-4* transition. But this. Node. Is. Not. It.

Unknown

PeterGibbons316 wrote:

CybrGamr wrote:

It has nothing to do with "entitlement" - it has to do with progressing - and having a realistic way to progress...

I'm going to stop you right here. A very short time ago there were no legendary tokens, and there were still people with developed 4* rosters. All of the ways to progress to that point are still currently available. So the people who have developed 4* characters and can earn legendary tokens with them are doing so. Because they progressed using the same "unrealistic" methods that everyone else can use.

THIS is why people complaining come off as being entitled. The people who are earning the tokens are doing so because they took all of the old avenues to get to that point. All of these avenues are still available to people trying to progress into 4* land, and instead of pursuing them, they are complaining about their inability to skip the step that other vets with 4* rosters had to take to get to where they are now.

I was here at the beginning (day 660) - a year ago we were competing with other 3* rosters to climb the PvP trees - now I am competing with full 4* rosters to try to climb the PvP tree... not the same.

3* DDQ was a great idea that brought a lot of fun to the game - I know I enjoyed it a great deal. I will not enjoy the 4* transition the same way...

Unknown

PeterGibbons316 wrote:

CybrGamr wrote:

It has nothing to do with "entitlement" - it has to do with progressing - and having a realistic way to progress...

I'm going to stop you right here. A very short time ago there were no legendary tokens, and there were still people with developed 4* rosters. All of the ways to progress to that point are still currently available. So the people who have developed 4* characters and can earn legendary tokens with them are doing so. Because they progressed using the same "unrealistic" methods that everyone else can use.

THIS is why people complaining come off as being entitled. The people who are earning the tokens are doing so because they took all of the old avenues to get to that point. All of these avenues are still available to people trying to progress into 4* land, and instead of pursuing them, they are complaining about their inability to skip the step that other vets with 4* rosters had to take to get to where they are now.

And when DPD first came out, there were likewise fine fellows who lurked under bridges and complained incessantly that DPD needed to be made tougher to prevent people (other than them) from actually progressing. The point of DPD is that it's to ease transitions. This implies that people are having trouble earning a given reward to begin with and need some new method to maintain interest and keep playing.

I'll be 100% honest here. I'm playing through anniversary week for double ISO and more reasonable token odds, but after that I'm probably done with this game because there aren't methods to transition to 4* that match with the amount of effort I can put into this game and still enjoy it / have time for more important things. I'm okay with progressing at a slower pace than those who grind every single event to the max (which is more a test of ability to spend time and / or money than skill), but the reality is that there basically is no progression to 4* right now. It's akin to the old 1-2 or 2-3 star progressions. I never enjoyed shield hopping or grinding PvE's down to the bone for a single cover, and I'm not going to play the game in a manner I don't enjoy.

simonsez

theHappyDance wrote:

I'll be 100% honest here. I'm playing through anniversary week for double ISO and more reasonable token odds, but after that I'm probably done with this game

I wish you'd stop Favre-ing around already...

cyineedsn

Guys guys guys, didn't we learn anything from what happened to Wildstar? You never go full hardcore lol

PeterGibbons316

CybrGamr wrote:

PeterGibbons316 wrote:

CybrGamr wrote:

It has nothing to do with "entitlement" - it has to do with progressing - and having a realistic way to progress...

I'm going to stop you right here. A very short time ago there were no legendary tokens, and there were still people with developed 4* rosters. All of the ways to progress to that point are still currently available. So the people who have developed 4* characters and can earn legendary tokens with them are doing so. Because they progressed using the same "unrealistic" methods that everyone else can use.

THIS is why people complaining come off as being entitled. The people who are earning the tokens are doing so because they took all of the old avenues to get to that point. All of these avenues are still available to people trying to progress into 4* land, and instead of pursuing them, they are complaining about their inability to skip the step that other vets with 4* rosters had to take to get to where they are now.

I was here at the beginning (day 660) - a year ago we were competing with other 3* rosters to climb the PvP trees - now I am competing with full 4* rosters to try to climb the PvP tree... not the same.

3* DDQ was a great idea that brought a lot of fun to the game - I know I enjoyed it a great deal. I will not enjoy the 4* transition the same way...

This is simply not the case. You don't see NOTHING but teams of fully maxed 4*s until you get over 1000 points. There are always 3* teams out there that you can skip to up until you hit that 4* progression.

It does get harder at the end of the event, but we are talking about a 1000 point progression, not finish.

philosorapt0r

Jamie Madrox wrote:

I think OP and like minded posters are missing the point.

DDQ is NOT for you. It's for players with established, but still lacking, 4* rosters to help them fill out their 4* characters and progress to 5*.

I'd hate to see how much whining you would come up with if you actually had to progress at the rate that the veteran players have. When I made the transition to there was so many fewer ways to do so. Be thankful for what you have.

The game used to be so bad that progression was worse/more frustrating than it is now. Therefore, we shouldn't complain about the fact that early 4* transition is currently bad (dedicated-grind-only, or hope-your-shield-hops-work). Gotcha. I'll be playing Demiurge's other games unless/until the promised on-ramp to 4*s/new game mode is introduced, because adding 5* transition to a game without a fun 4* transition is indeed NOT FOR ME.

BlackSheep101

How many points are those 3* teams worth? Because I struggle to find teams worth more than 38 points when I get to the 900 point range that don't have at least one fully covered 4*.

Punisher5784

I agree with both sides of the fence. I understand that as a 3* player, it's difficult for us to transition to 4* while on the other side I understand that this is meant for the 4*-5* transitioners. This only makes me work harder in PVE to earn those Legendary tokens. It's still much faster than the previous model to gain 4*'s. Sure the "rich get richer" but we're not completely left behind.

My only big complaint with 4* DDQ is that it's only for one day. It really should be open for the entire 5-days DDQ cycle.

TheWerebison

Punisher5784 wrote:

My only big complaint with 4* DDQ is that it's only for one day. It really should be open for the entire 5-days DDQ cycle.

That's really not a bad idea, from all angles. Give people more chances to beat the node, and having it out there longer may convince people to buy covers or iso to boost the required character until they can beat it.

OneLastGambit

PeterGibbons316 wrote:

CybrGamr wrote:

PeterGibbons316 wrote:

CybrGamr wrote:

It has nothing to do with "entitlement" - it has to do with progressing - and having a realistic way to progress...

I'm going to stop you right here. A very short time ago there were no legendary tokens, and there were still people with developed 4* rosters. All of the ways to progress to that point are still currently available. So the people who have developed 4* characters and can earn legendary tokens with them are doing so. Because they progressed using the same "unrealistic" methods that everyone else can use.

THIS is why people complaining come off as being entitled. The people who are earning the tokens are doing so because they took all of the old avenues to get to that point. All of these avenues are still available to people trying to progress into 4* land, and instead of pursuing them, they are complaining about their inability to skip the step that other vets with 4* rosters had to take to get to where they are now.

I was here at the beginning (day 660) - a year ago we were competing with other 3* rosters to climb the PvP trees - now I am competing with full 4* rosters to try to climb the PvP tree... not the same.

3* DDQ was a great idea that brought a lot of fun to the game - I know I enjoyed it a great deal. I will not enjoy the 4* transition the same way...

This is simply not the case. You don't see NOTHING but teams of fully maxed 4*s until you get over 1000 points. There are always 3* teams out there that you can skip to up until you hit that 4* progression.

It does get harder at the end of the event, but we are talking about a 1000 point progression, not finish.

Just thought I'd point out your double negative here. Saying you don't see nothing actually means that you see something, can't illustrate your point while simultaneously arguing against it.

AtlasAxe

PeterGibbons316 wrote:

CybrGamr wrote:

It has nothing to do with "entitlement" - it has to do with progressing - and having a realistic way to progress...

I'm going to stop you right here. A very short time ago there were no legendary tokens, and there were still people with developed 4* rosters. All of the ways to progress to that point are still currently available. So the people who have developed 4* characters and can earn legendary tokens with them are doing so. Because they progressed using the same "unrealistic" methods that everyone else can use.

THIS is why people complaining come off as being entitled. The people who are earning the tokens are doing so because they took all of the old avenues to get to that point. All of these avenues are still available to people trying to progress into 4* land, and instead of pursuing them, they are complaining about their inability to skip the step that other vets with 4* rosters had to take to get to where they are now.

No, what you are describing is the first mover effect. if you are near your second anniversary, when you started, things were fairly level. What you faced throughout your time playing here were opponents who were roughly your equal. When you were achieving your first fully-maxed 3*, your opponents weren't teams of fully-maxed 4*s in PVP, they were roughly like what you had. Saying "do it like me" is pretending there is no history and that big hitters were always there.

While I enjoy DDQ immensely, I think it was a poor solution to what is really needed: proper balance and scaling throughout the game. Right now for PVP, there are basically 2 brackets - a beginner bracket and a vet bracket. We have people in the beginner brackets in my alliance. It's hard to hear someone reaching 650 getting 1st. Here's the thing: I don't begrudge them that because that's why the beginner bracket exists. I think DDQ was a hack to rush people to 3* rosters when there were beginning to be a lot of vets with fully developed 3* rosters and a couple of good 4*s. If you didn't have a decent number of developed 3*, you didn't bother with PVP because you got smacked. If you played just PVE, you develop very slowly.

I do agree if the purpose of DDQ was to improve the 2*-3* path, it completely makes sense to have a 3*-4* path as well as the 4*-5* path that is currently there. However, I don't necessarily agree that hacking the hack that is DDQ is optimal. What is needed is a robust scaling model that makes competitive PVP brackets. Competitive means you are facing like opponents. Robust scaling means that getting 1 fully-leveled 166 doesn't blow your scaling in PVP out of the water (yes I made that mistake and acknowledge it, and it has been costly). This doesn't have to be an infinite number of brackets - it could be 3-4 total to achieve better parity.

The thing to remember is that every time D3 upscales something to keep you as a vet happy, the experience of those below you who started later and are still climbing changes, and changes significantly. Just saying "do what I did" doesn't reflect reality.