Highest PVP scores being promoted by D3

rbdragon

Why is this "issue" of using out-of-game chats a thing? Why does anyone care so passionately if someone is scoring 2000+ points and how they do it?

I don't have the best roster since my 4*'s are quite underdeveloped. I do have a strong 3* roster however, and hitting 1000 is definitely doable. Could I hit 1300? Probably - but I've never tried. Not because I think I am at a disadvantage because I don't use Line - but simply because I'm too damn lazy to try.

Players finding one another and communicating to co-ordinate shield hops is a good thing. To me, the way I see it - anything that brings people together in a fun environment with the purpose of helping their fellow human being in any respect can't be considered bad.

Just because you don't do it doesn't mean it's wrong. Just because new players might not know about it doesn't make it wrong either.

As other's have said - there's more than one way to play. If you're goal is to score 1300 - do it! The only thing stopping you is you. Stop blaming exploits or whatever...

You can say you can or you can say you can't. Either way, you're correct.

simonsez

Dauthi wrote:

Whine

Here's some free PvP advice: Join S1 or S4. Push to 1000 and shield. Then, every time you get the urge to make one of these posts, go into the game and refresh your queues instead. You'll line up three 60+ point targets pretty easily. Then you can come back tomorrow and tell us, "Wow, I never realized how simple and straight-forward it was to get 1300 without Line, once you pick the right shard and stop wasting time with nonsense"

TheOncomingStorm

Dauthi wrote:

acescracked wrote:

Omega Red wrote:

I can hit 1000 and 1300 progression. I don't use line and I'm not even a member of any alliance. Everything you need to know on how to hit top progression rewards is -and always has been- widely available in this message board. Whiners seem to refuse to get it and they greatly misunderstand and overestimate the role of offline communication in the metagame.

Best. Post. Ever!

Thank you. Too bad dauthi and his sidekick sagpro will ignore it.

Ironic you say that when the post completely ignores all the points being made against the exploit, and further cements this by calling the opposing side "whiners."

The facts are that using out of game communication to coordinate shield hops is an exploit as noted by Ice. Ice also stated they would like it if players didn't use the exploit, but they will not punish them.

The exploit gives a few players an advantage. Now I have seen the opposing side claim the advantage is big, and the players who score tons of points need it so they can trickle it down to everyone. I have also seen it said that the advantage is small, downplaying it. The consensus however is that there is an advantage given through using it. Even the devs can see this, which is why it is discouraged.

I personally feel that players should all have an even playing ground, and even if this exploit is minor, it would be nice if a practical solution was found to render it useless.

I still don't understand why others feel they should keep this advantage over other players in the first place.

scottee wrote:

This thread is like watching two people who speak different languages have an argument that devolves into a knife fight that devolves into a chainsaw fight that turns into looking for translators because no one can read the instructions for the chainsaws. Everyone gets bloodied and nobody wins.

I can agree with this

I'll take things that are total **** for a 1000 Alex.

All players should be on an equal playing field? Thank you for bringing up the point that will finally bring this discussion to a close.

I would argue (and I know of no one that would disagree) that players that read the forums, especially the sections other than General Discussion, have a significant advantage over players that do not use it.

It's not part of the game, just like Line.

It can be accessed by anyone playing the game, just like line.

It is used to give information (including bracket counts and alliance scores) that other players who only use the game can't obtain, just like Line.

Alliances can find mercs to boost their scores (not sure how this also doesn't make your exploit lost), just like Line.

It has people that find anything and everything to complain about, oops....Line doesn't have that.

TL; DR: There are lots of exploits the way you use that term; however, the truth is you personally don't seem to like Line, so you're willing to ignore all other forms, including the forum. How convenient for you and the clock?

Malcrof

TheOncomingStorm wrote:

Dauthi wrote:

acescracked wrote:

Omega Red wrote:

I can hit 1000 and 1300 progression. I don't use line and I'm not even a member of any alliance. Everything you need to know on how to hit top progression rewards is -and always has been- widely available in this message board. Whiners seem to refuse to get it and they greatly misunderstand and overestimate the role of offline communication in the metagame.

Best. Post. Ever!

Thank you. Too bad dauthi and his sidekick sagpro will ignore it.

Ironic you say that when the post completely ignores all the points being made against the exploit, and further cements this by calling the opposing side "whiners."

The facts are that using out of game communication to coordinate shield hops is an exploit as noted by Ice. Ice also stated they would like it if players didn't use the exploit, but they will not punish them.

The exploit gives a few players an advantage. Now I have seen the opposing side claim the advantage is big, and the players who score tons of points need it so they can trickle it down to everyone. I have also seen it said that the advantage is small, downplaying it. The consensus however is that there is an advantage given through using it. Even the devs can see this, which is why it is discouraged.

I personally feel that players should all have an even playing ground, and even if this exploit is minor, it would be nice if a practical solution was found to render it useless.

I still don't understand why others feel they should keep this advantage over other players in the first place.

scottee wrote:

This thread is like watching two people who speak different languages have an argument that devolves into a knife fight that devolves into a chainsaw fight that turns into looking for translators because no one can read the instructions for the chainsaws. Everyone gets bloodied and nobody wins.

I can agree with this

I'll take things that are total **** for a 1000 Alex.

All players should be on an equal playing field? Thank you for bringing up the point that will finally bring this discussion to a close.

I would argue (and I know of no one that would disagree) that players that read the forums, especially the sections other than General Discussion, have a significant advantage over players that do not use it.

It's not part of the game, just like Line.

It can be accessed by anyone playing the game, just like line.

It is used to give information (including bracket counts and alliance scores) that other players who only use the game can't obtain, just like Line.

Alliances can find mercs to boost their scores (not sure how this also doesn't make your exploit lost), just like Line.

It has people that find anything and everything to complain about, oops....Line doesn't have that.

TL; DR: There are lots of exploits the way you use that term; however, the truth is you personally don't seem to like Line, so you're willing to ignore all other forms, including the forum. How convenient for you and the clock?

Drop mic, lock thread.. discussion over. NEXT!

Unknown

Tannen wrote:

sigh. Why is this still an argument?

I use Line. I chat with alliance members on Line. It's fun. What I don't do on Line though, is use it for anything other than chatting. I don't join any of the BCs on Line. I don't shield check / announce on Line. I do, however, wait for ~10ish minutes or more for high point targets to re-shield (so that I don't hit someone unshielded). I do skip while I'm shielded looking for high point targets.

I hit 1k points pretty much every pvp. I hit 1.3k points when I want to. You know what stops me hitting 1.3k points? Generally it's my own apathy for the 4* cover at that score or occasionally out of game dramas. As a far more general note, dry slices can also cause issues hitting 1.3k.

Do I care that other people are using a chat program to "get more/easier points"? No. Do I think that the chat program is an "exploit"? No. Do I think that this whole thing is overblown and needs to end? Yes.

I've seen your roster. I literally just looked it up to see what you were working with. It's better than mine (seriously, look mine up). Even if it wasn't, you have a 250 5/5/3 HB and a 166 3/5/5 IF. Those two alone will get you to 1.3k. So when you come onto the forums complaining about not being able to hit 1.3k and blaming Line the only thing that I can assume is that you're doing this for attention. You've found yourself a cause, and you're going to ride it for all it's worth. There have been actual, helpful, point by point posts on how to make 1.3k, and you've dismissed them because they don't agree that Line is the root of the problem.

So, let me say it plainly. There is nothing about your roster stopping you from hitting all the 1.3k's that you want. Hitting 1.3k has literally nothing to do with Line. You can (I do) hit 1.3k without using Line to coordinate at all. All Line (potentially) does is help you find higher point targets. If you can't hit 1.3k without Line, you're not going to hit 1.3k with Line. The problem is not Line, and it never was. Using Line does not mean that you make an automatic 1.3k points. Line isn't some sort of super club or exploit, it's simply an application that people use to chat to each other (and sometimes send tasteless nudes, but that's another story).

Let the crusade against it go. Please.

- T

I hit 1k every PvP as well, it's easy. 1.3k is kind of easy depending on your bracket (yes I know this is because of these players who score high). The problem isn't really about LINE users, the problem is that the current system doesn't let you climb without using things like LINE. If you go above 1300, even 1500, good luck getting any points, or ranking high w/o the use of LINE (of course this factors in several things like how many high scorers are in the bracket, which will increase your chance of finding targets unshielded, again this is like going in blindfolded, communication removes this blockade, thus granting a signficant advantage on gaining points, and ranking high).

If placement rewards were better, I'm sure more people would go for it and eventually complain about it, I don't play for rewards, as much as I play to be the best when I want, right now I cannot be the best, simply by choosing not to soft exploit.

No one is trying to get your precious LINE removed, you can still chat every 5 minutes with your BFF's on there if you'd like, we just want to gain equal points or at least close to it w/o the need of using LINE. Right now it's a game of luck.

Just because you guys are most vocal, and I am not surprised by that since you post on the forums frequently to discuss about the game, sometimes insulting others, but some of us read the forums to get info, we have NO interest in posting unless we have to, this does not mean it isn't an issue. I've stayed silent for a while, I just wanted the devs to be made aware of what some of their players are going through, and they are, which is great. Mission accomplished.

People keep reading the same posts over and over, yet still fail to understand what the problem really is, and yet keep asking to stop the crusade?

BTW an unfair advantage, whether big or small is enough to get you one step further than someone else that is competing equally as you are. If we were playing baseball, and one group uses steroids, while the other group chooses to play it right, do we have to all use steroids just to compete effectively? The fact that it is available to you, doesn't mean it is fair play when that method isn't in the rules. In this case, even though it isn't consider a true exploit, it still should get fixed, just no resolution is best for all yet.

I am done with this thread. Hopefully this gets resolved sooner than later.

Enjoy.

simonsez

sagapo wrote:

If we were playing baseball, and one group uses steroids, while the other group chooses to play it right, do we have to all use steroids just to compete effectively?

You think this is a valid analogy, comparing Line to something that is SPECIFICALLY against the rules of baseball? A better analogy would be a hitter who whines about other guys who use statistical data on pitchers' tendencies in order to improve their hitting performance. "Babe Ruth never used computers... wah, wah, wah"

atomzed

Sagapo, Lets use your logic which you have posted (just one single post)

sagapo wrote:

Just because you guys are most vocal, and I am not surprised by that since you post on the forums frequently to discuss about the game, sometimes insulting others, but some of us read the forums to get info, we have NO interest in posting unless we have to, this does not mean it isn't an issue.

So you confirmed that some players (including you and me) read the forum to get info.

sagapo wrote:

BTW an unfair advantage, whether big or small is enough to get you one step further than someone else that is competing equally as you are.

You and me have use the forum to gain info about the game. Info like the best builds, most efficient combo, etc.

The number of people who uses the forums are way less than the people who plays the game.

Which means that those who uses the forum, which includes you and me, have gained an unfair advantage over those players who don't use forum. By your definition, any unfair advantage, big or small, is enough to put you one step ahead of others.

sagapo wrote:

If we were playing baseball, and one group uses steroids, while the other group chooses to play it right, do we have to all use steroids just to compete effectively?

So going by your definition, the fact that you and me are using the forum, means that we are using steroids.

The fact that it is available to you, doesn't mean it is fair play when that method isn't in the rules. In this case, even though it isn't consider a true exploit, it still should get fixed, just no resolution is best for all yet.

And though the forum is available to us, doesn't mean that it is fair play (against those who don't uses the forum),since there is nothing in the games rules that a MPQ player must use the forum to compete.

I am done with this thread. Hopefully this gets resolved sooner than later.

Oh, are you going to be done with the forum too? Since going by your definition and logic, we all are using steroids in the game, and we should all delete our forum accounts?/sarcasm

Unknown

I'm going to try and be civil, but frankly there are tons of ironically IGNORANT and arrogant comments being spewed about what's reasonable.

Do you have a max 4*? If so, then most likely you are NOT THE AVERAGE PLAYER. There is a good chance (though not impossible) that you are part of a top 100 Alliance. Do you post on these forums? Then most likely you are NOT the average player. Does this make you stupid or unable to discuss matters, not at all, BUT your point of view can easily be distorted.

There is a HUGE problem with scores that high. It makes placement rewards IMPOSSIBLE for most folks. I'm not even talking top 1 or 2 or 5 or 10. What's worse is these people who are sitting on those placement rewards are doing nothing but selling the covers for ISO. It's REAL easy to say "oh its easy to get to 1k" when you have a developed roster with competent covers, but when you can't place to get those covers, the process of getting to that point takes WWWAAAYYYY longer. Multiply that by an ever changing meta game, and by the time someone gets Sentry leveled, he's been nerfed. By the time I got Black Panther leveled, the health bump made him "meh". I'm in a super casual alliance and we have players who are STILL working on Laken. We've got players still struggling through the 2-3* transition while the game has shifted high gear into 4*.

I'm NOT saying a player with Stormneto + Hawkeye should get a top 10 finish, not at all, but it creates a HUGE separation. Hell, I'm not trying to complain about 'me', but I do feel I'm good example. My roster is pretty healthy...
lvl 200 XF
166 - BP, Blade, Cyclops, Laken, CMags, Falcon, Sentry, Steve Rogers, Hood, Hulk, Punisher, Lhor, Patch
130+ - Cage, IF,Fury, Doom, KK, GSBW, HT, DD, Psy, She-Hulk
120+ - RnG, MStorm, Loki, Beast,Cap M, Colossus, Daredevil, DP, IM40, Mystique, Spiderman

Notice something missing? 4*s! PX - 5 covers, GThor - 4 covers, Carnage, 4P, KP - 3 Covers, IMHB - 2 Covers, Ant-man - 1 cover. For me I struggle past 1k due to losing points quicker than I can get them, even with boost. Too juicy for some lower level to not just boost against, and too squishy for some Fistbuster team to just NOT punch through. I'm fine with that - 1k is my consistency level, but being frank, once I hit 1k I don't bother shielding, it won't be enough for a placement worth the HP spent on a shield - and THAT is a problem.

Do I dislike the out of game communication, hell yeah. I understand it and its not out right cheating, but its an advantage that only those in the higher alliances have (so what if my alliance tried it, no one is boosting themselves off my scores). And it does NOT FEED THE COMMUNITY. It only feeds those already at the top! That's what it feels like is missing in all these discussions, you folks (not meant derogatory) are under some illusion that everyone is on your level when they obviously AREN'T. It's fine that you're creme de la creme - if you work for it you deserve it, and I'm not trying to stand in the way of that...

But for the love of God can we PLEASE stop pretending that the rich aren't getting richer while the poor stay poor? The poor get by from inflation. I'm not asking to double minimum wage or anything like that, I just want the rich to understand that they ARE RICH and not middle class. The middle class (where I consider myself) strive for 1k, so when we see 2k? We lose interest.

I play fighting games, like tournament level (well retired from tournaments but that's how serious I took them). There are several ways to 'not win'.

You can fight competitively, and lose due to an error of your own or something they did. From that you take a lesson and strengthen your resolve.

You fight, get beat because there is an obvious difference in skill level, but you can look at the match and understand 'some' of why they beat you, whether its spacing or execution, knowing the engine, whatever. You eventually come back after some training, but you know you arne't ready yet.

Then there is fighting and getting your behind kicked so bad, you can't tell what happened. You don't pick up anything from the match, your whole world is turned upside down as to WHY this person won by such a large margin. Its demoralizing and makes you feel as though you don't understand the game at all, and questions of doubt creep into your mind. I watched a REAL good player get destroyed by ONE BUTTON in CvS2 and subsequently RETIRE from that game after that (Cammy s.FP if I remmeber correctly).

When the middle class are only sniffing 1k and the upper class is DOUBLING that, you start to wonder, will I ever be able to place? Will I ever actually be competitive? How can I beat those scores? By the time I get a team strong enough or get my alliance strong enough, those players will be even BETTER with newer shinier characters built to counter the team I FINALLY put together. What's the point? Always playing catch-up isn't fun. Not being competitive isn't fun either.

Sorry for the long post, but I'm trying to word it out and explain WHY so many people have retorted against the position a lot of people here are taking. I'm in the middle, I don't like it, but I do understand, its no different than my supergroup in City of Heroes using a chat client during PvP matches. But when you so thoroughly out play a large sect of the population because of that, you have to be ready for the 'backlash' from the players who for whatever reason, resources, time, roster, whatever - can't do the same.
- Unreall

Unknown

atomzed wrote:

Oh, are you going to be done with the forum too? Since going by your definition and logic, we all are using steroids in the game, and we should all delete our forum accounts?/sarcasm

Trying to find flaws in what I say doesn't change the fact that it is a problem.

Not sure if you just fail to understand, or too stubborn to admit that there is an issue.

I’ll respond to you anyway since I like helping people, except in PvP, that’s meant to be a battle. The difference between LINE, and forums is that forums is part of the game. You can get info from the game that leads to the forum (not from players in chat, but the game has a friendly UI that assist you in this matter), it is created by the same company which means that it is part of the rules, why are you saying it’s not? Therefore it is widely accessible by all players, since it is supported by the company that developed the game. However this is irrelevant because you basically tried to cherry pick every word I say to find an argument rather than discussing the problem itself.

This point can easily be argued back and forth – info from the forums does assist you in the game, info from LINE directly impacts your scores and ranking, this is such a biased topic that we shouldn’t go there.

Now back to the problem… can’t find targets to climb for high rankings, you won’t start to see this until you reach the 1300-1500, at that point you need LINE to climb or get real lucky and catch someone unshielded. But some of these guys can totally by pass this by allowing others to queue them (in addition to letting someone gain points, not attack them, ruins the gameplay and inflates scores greatly, while everyone else is stuck at 1300 and wondering how those people can get 2000-2500 when all they get are 8-10 point targets.






Billy: But but but… placement rewards are bad, who cares? These people help me get my 1k, or 1.3k easy and I like it!

Sagapo: I’m glad you like it Billy, but if you ever want to overachieve and try to get Rank 1, you will –not- be able to unless you use LINE or form a group that use this tactic by finding a flaw in a system and soft exploiting. Either that or you get real lucky and join a bracket where Rank 1 is only 500-800 points, which is usually at the last minute.
Billy: aww, that’s no fun… I want to actually earn my Rank 1 and beat the game consistently… I don’t want to cheese my way to 800 and call it a win.

Billy: But but but… LINE is free and you can join too! It’s fair! Besides… how am I gonna get Rank 1 without it? I have to do it, everyone else is…




Sagapo: Billy billy billy, *facepalm*, you can join it if you want, but then again, you are just joining the groups of players that are abusing the current system. I will try and get it addressed for all of us so that it is fair for all. The fact is Billy, the current system is good, but not great, we are trying to find a real solution that’s best for all, but it’s tough! Billy, the creators of the game admit that it is an issue, it’s just that they don’t have a solution for it yet that would be best for all players, yet some of these exploiters keep trying to think it’s a personal attack to their LINE app, they must really love their BFF’s and can’t stop texting each other. Little do they know that LINE isn’t the issue, it’s the system that allows them to do this, and should be fixed.

Billy: aww man, I see now, there’s no point to compete right now, I guess I will just sit back and relax in the meantime until the issue is resolved. I’ll just try to get my 1k or 1.3k and go get some sherbet, or at least until I get bored. Mmm, delicious. Mmm so so so good. Thanks Sagapo, I understand now. When this is fixed, everyone is happy, LINE users can still text each other their breakfast, lunch, dessert, while people that don’t use it can still compete in the game fairly. That should make more people happy, just like how I am right now enjoying this delicious ice cream!

Sagapo: Oh billy, you amuse me. Make sure you bring enough sherbet to share next time. Have a great day.






Okay seriously, now I’m really done with this thread – it isn’t going anywhere. Also I'm not quitting the forums yet, but when I do, I'll let you know so you can celebrate.

Enjoy!

Der_Lex

Unreallystic, I do understand your points, and agree that for many of us our perspective is vastly different from that of the average player. But for me your post highlights that it's not so much the high scores that are the problem, but rather the reward system in the game, especially where placement rewards are concerned.

The game has reached a point where the top tier of players, the ones that can hit top 25 in any PvP they choose, rarely if ever need the 3* covers that are offered as placement rewards. They do usually need the ISO, and if not they play for bragging rights/scoring (what good is a good roster if you don't use it anyway?), but it does mean that neither they nor those middle class players that you mention get the covers they need (and I agree that I wouldn't want to be a 2-3* transitioner right about now).

But even if outside communication and the like were completely banned, the same players would most likely dominate those top 25 spots. Nothing would change. Personally I'm hoping that the current rate of 4* releases will lead to a new reward tiering system (like the alterations to shield sim) that will help each level of player get more of the rewards they need, whether's that's 3*s or 4*s. But I think that's what's needed to help out the player base as a whole, whereas changes to outside communication and the like would only help out a handful of disgruntled players that feel that anything that doesn't suit their personal playstyle is a huge unfair advantage.

IceIX

Alright. This thread has about had its time. For one, it has been massively derailed from its original purpose. For two, it's obvious that this discussion has no where to go. There are a couple different camps, each of which are not going to be argued with in any meaningful manner. Time for this little guy to go pining for the fjords.