Highest PVP scores being promoted by D3

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  • IceIX
    IceIX ADMINISTRATORS Posts: 4,328 Site Admin
    sagapo wrote:
    Why not make players be discover-able while they are shielded, but the shield still protects their points. For those of us that don't communicate outside of the game, we can still queue them and get points off of them. This would be fair for players that just want to be competitive and play the game rather than be at a disadvantage.
    That would be great for the communicative types, but would actually actively hurt the "casual" shielders that have figured out how to more effectively shield to not lose points. Right now, a perfectly valid strategy is to climb higher than your equilibrium (say 800 points when your unshielded equilibrium is 600) then shield. Wait a few hours (maybe even the full 8 or the next day?) for people to beat against your high point shield that still had you queued. Then unshield, fight some more, put it back up to end out the Event (or start another longer hop). It's kind of like the hard core shield hopping, but without the massive coordination.

    By allowing people to queue you while shielded, those players would never have a time that they could unshield without immediately being pounded by attacks. It'd pretty much mean that if you aren't hopping directly from shield to shield post equilibrium, you're not going to keep that score, ever. Sure, currently the unshielded bubble is only a few minutes, but this would drop it to zero. That hurts *everyone* who shields, not just the high end or casual shielders.
  • Dauthi
    Dauthi Posts: 995 Critical Contributor
    lukewin wrote:
    BillyBobJoe wrote:
    1) Could someone explain what the "problem", is with shield hopping?
    2) Why is out of game communication so bad?

    Some people believe that because the 1300 pt reward is there that it should be obtainable by everyone. I am not one of those people. I grab my 1k, and call it a day.

    A lot of people have figured out how to get it via shield hopping. Some people use the method, some don't want to use those methods. Some that don't want anyone to use those methods, crusade to try to get it removed for everyone. It's not fair to them, if there are methods out there that people use but they choose not to, so instead of sucking it up and moving on, they want the game to cater to their style of play.

    The truth of the matter is for those not using out of game communication, obtaining 1300 is extremely difficult when you get lucky, and unobtainable without it. If using this communication makes it easier to get 1300, D3 is seeing the wrong numbers because that many people shouldn't be hitting 1300. Because of this, I also grab my 1k and move on.

    On a side note, is it really a part of the game? For some reason, I just don't see it anywhere when I open MPQ! icon_e_wink.gif
  • lukewin
    lukewin Posts: 1,356 Chairperson of the Boards
    Dauthi wrote:
    The truth of the matter is for those not using out of game communication, obtaining 1300 is extremely difficult when you get lucky, and unobtainable without it. If using this communication makes it easier to get 1300, D3 is seeing the wrong numbers because that many people shouldn't be hitting 1300. Because of this, I also grab my 1k and move on.

    According to you, that many people shouldn't be hitting 1300.
    Dauthi wrote:
    On a side note, is it really a part of the game? For some reason, I just don't see it anywhere when I open MPQ! icon_e_wink.gif

    Does it matter that it's not part of the game? Should people that use outside sources (video game guides, YouTube, or forums, etc) to find hints/tips be punished because they're advancing in a game with resources that exist outside of that game? The job of the developer/publisher should be to handle the development/publishing of the game, not hold your hand and walk you thru how to play it.
  • scottee
    scottee Posts: 1,610 Chairperson of the Boards
    Dauthi wrote:

    The truth of the matter is for those not using out of game communication, obtaining 1300 is extremely difficult when you get lucky, and unobtainable without it. If using this communication makes it easier to get 1300, D3 is seeing the wrong numbers because that many people shouldn't be hitting 1300. Because of this, I also grab my 1k and move on.

    On a side note, is it really a part of the game? For some reason, I just don't see it anywhere when I open MPQ! icon_e_wink.gif

    I wouldn't say it's that hard. I didn't want to install Line and am F2P, but can reach pretty much any 1300 I want. (except for this weekend's Thing when I was booked solid) It just takes a little more iso than if you were coordinated, but anyone that is fully in the 4* realm should have no problem reaching 1300. It's usually about 450 hp (of which you win 200-300 back).
  • Dauthi
    Dauthi Posts: 995 Critical Contributor
    lukewin wrote:
    Dauthi wrote:
    The truth of the matter is for those not using out of game communication, obtaining 1300 is extremely difficult when you get lucky, and unobtainable without it. If using this communication makes it easier to get 1300, D3 is seeing the wrong numbers because that many people shouldn't be hitting 1300. Because of this, I also grab my 1k and move on.

    On a side note, is it really a part of the game? For some reason, I just don't see it anywhere when I open MPQ! icon_e_wink.gif

    Does it matter that it's not part of the game? Should people that use outside sources (video game guides, YouTube, or forums, etc) to find hints/tips be punished because they're advancing in a game with resources that exist outside of that game? The job of the developer/publisher should be to handle the development/publishing of the game, not hold your hand and walk you thru how to play it.

    You could learn anything from a guide by playing the game yourself and gaining experience/learning. I imagine many out there who are not of the forums can't figure out how players are hitting such incredible scores consistently. You can't learn that you need to join the forums and get on Line to coordinate hops.

    These things are not really comparable.
  • lukewin
    lukewin Posts: 1,356 Chairperson of the Boards
    Dauthi wrote:
    You could learn anything from a guide by playing the game yourself and gaining experience/learning. I imagine many out there who are not of the forums can't figure out how players are hitting such incredible scores consistently. You can't learn that you need to join the forums and get on Line to coordinate hops.

    These things are not really comparable.

    There's nothing stopping anyone from joining the forums and getting on LINE to coordinate hops, other than a personal choice not to do so. Links to the forums are in the game.
  • Dauthi
    Dauthi Posts: 995 Critical Contributor
    lukewin wrote:
    Dauthi wrote:
    You could learn anything from a guide by playing the game yourself and gaining experience/learning. I imagine many out there who are not of the forums can't figure out how players are hitting such incredible scores consistently. You can't learn that you need to join the forums and get on Line to coordinate hops.

    These things are not really comparable.

    There's nothing stopping anyone from joining the forums and getting on LINE to coordinate hops, other than a personal choice not to do so. Links to the forums are in the game.

    I'll correct my last piece. There is no way to know you need to join the forums and stumble upon mention of said Line group. Maybe you should get D3 to sticky/pin it somewhere icon_e_wink.gif
    lukewin wrote:
    According to you, that many people shouldn't be hitting 1300.

    Unless we take into account out of game communication, which I can only assume is not intended by the devs. If you can get them to sticky it somewhere though, I will accept that I am wrong in this.

    ICE referred to the act as exploiting with his last sentence, so I don't know icon_question.gif Regardless there wouldn't be any way to catch/stop this act.
    IceIX wrote:
    Also, not saying that any of those Alliances are "exploiting" or anything, just that those Alliances in particular are well known, so good for naming illustration. icon_e_smile.gif
  • IceIX
    IceIX ADMINISTRATORS Posts: 4,328 Site Admin
    Dauthi wrote:
    ICE referred to the act as exploiting with his last sentence, so I don't know icon_question.gif Regardless there wouldn't be any way to catch/stop this act.
    Not exploiting as in breaking game rules/we're going to ban you, but exploiting as in the true definition; Taking advantage of flaws in a system for full benefit.
  • lukewin
    lukewin Posts: 1,356 Chairperson of the Boards
    Dauthi wrote:
    I'll correct my last piece. There is no way to know you need to join the forums and stumble upon mention of said Line group. Maybe you should get D3 to sticky/pin it somewhere icon_e_wink.gif
    Dauthi wrote:
    Unless we take into account out of game communication, which I can only assume is not intended by the devs. If you can get them to sticky it somewhere though, I will accept that I am wrong in this.

    I'll repeat something I said earlier.
    lukewin wrote:
    The job of the developer/publisher should be to handle the development/publishing of the game, not hold your hand and walk you thru how to play it.
  • Buret0
    Buret0 Posts: 1,591
    IceIX wrote:
    By allowing people to queue you while shielded, those players would never have a time that they could unshield without immediately being pounded by attacks. It'd pretty much mean that if you aren't hopping directly from shield to shield post equilibrium, you're not going to keep that score, ever. Sure, currently the unshielded bubble is only a few minutes, but this would drop it to zero. That hurts *everyone* who shields, not just the high end or casual shielders.

    Wouldn't it also create more high value targets, meaning that you might not actually see as many hits?
  • Dauthi
    Dauthi Posts: 995 Critical Contributor
    IceIX wrote:
    Dauthi wrote:
    ICE referred to the act as exploiting with his last sentence, so I don't know icon_question.gif Regardless there wouldn't be any way to catch/stop this act.
    Not exploiting as in breaking game rules/we're going to ban you, but exploiting as in the true definition; Taking advantage of flaws in a system for full benefit.

    Would it be safe to say you discourage it but it is not punishable then ?
  • scottee
    scottee Posts: 1,610 Chairperson of the Boards
    It's like card counting in a casino. They have programmer bruisers waiting in the back room.
  • IceIX
    IceIX ADMINISTRATORS Posts: 4,328 Site Admin
    Dauthi wrote:
    Would it be safe to say you discourage it but it is not punishable then ?
    Pretty much exactly this, yes. Now, if you somehow figured out how to *stay* shielded and still hop, that'd be a different matter. icon_e_smile.gif
  • IceIX
    IceIX ADMINISTRATORS Posts: 4,328 Site Admin
    Buret0 wrote:
    IceIX wrote:
    By allowing people to queue you while shielded, those players would never have a time that they could unshield without immediately being pounded by attacks. It'd pretty much mean that if you aren't hopping directly from shield to shield post equilibrium, you're not going to keep that score, ever. Sure, currently the unshielded bubble is only a few minutes, but this would drop it to zero. That hurts *everyone* who shields, not just the high end or casual shielders.

    Wouldn't it also create more high value targets, meaning that you might not actually see as many hits?
    You'd think that, but what would more likely happen is that more people would be running matches since it feels more lucrative, so the overall hits against high value targets would remain roughly the same. The same thing happened for the Versus Tournies following the +50% points increase until people reacted to the new status quo. In this case though, the new status quo would be to maintain the higher pace since that would naturally be the way to gain more points for the majority of players.

    It also has a very nasty knock on effect: You could queue #1, 2, 3, etc. while they're shielded and time their shields to pop them off very easily. You can kinda sorta do this now if you're lucky to catch them unshielded to queue, but if they were always in the pool, you could have an entire Alliance secure a T10 finish by coordinating hits on a given bracket set.
  • Beast1970
    Beast1970 Posts: 421 Mover and Shaker
    Dauthi wrote:

    Unless we take into account out of game communication, which I can only assume is not intended by the devs. If you can get them to sticky it somewhere though, I will accept that I am wrong in this.
    Out of game communication just makes it a tiny bit easier. Any alliance can do the same coordination internally using in game chat, so I'd have to assume that some level of coordination was expected and encouraged. Many single alliance groups just shifted to out of game communication since there are better products out there. I agree there are multi-alliance groups (such as X-Men, to borrow IceIX's example), that would HAVE to use out of game comms to be able to include everyone, but the way some alliances score, it wouldn't be strictly necessary.
  • nonnel
    nonnel Posts: 128 Tile Toppler
    Dauthi wrote:

    I'll correct my last piece. There is no way to know you need to join the forums and stumble upon mention of said Line group. Maybe you should get D3 to sticky/pin it somewhere icon_e_wink.gif

    The average gamer who is smart enough to search the app should also be able to search google.

    Can we please stop now with the offline communication stuff.
  • bdksni1
    bdksni1 Posts: 103
    I really don't get this whole discussion about out of game comunication.. Will you use a Nokia 3310 when you can have a brand new Galaxy? (Sorry for the brands, metaphorically speaking)
    In an era with smartphones, apps such as facebook, instagram, line, whatever are a part of every day utilities. If you can have a more effective way of reaching out to your mates why won't you do it?
    Plus it's free, it only drains your data plan and the phone's battery lol
    Edit: even with line app you still have to win the battles and time your jumps, nothing is given in this game..
  • mjh
    mjh Posts: 708 Critical Contributor
    nonnel wrote:
    Can we please stop now with the offline communication stuff.
    I'd say this is directly related to the topic at hand. D3 is promoting the overall top scorers. Top scorers can only get there through out-of-game communication. Therefore they are indirectly promoting out-of-game communication.
  • franckynight
    franckynight Posts: 582 Critical Contributor
    mjh wrote:
    nonnel wrote:
    Can we please stop now with the offline communication stuff.
    I'd say this is directly related to the topic at hand. D3 is promoting the overall top scorers. Top scorers can only get there through out-of-game communication. Therefore they are indirectly promoting out-of-game communication.
    I can guarantee you that i will cross 2k+ score only using in-game chat.. and if shields are to be removed the ones that will really suffer are not high end players it will be transitionners and 3* players..
  • Dauthi
    Dauthi Posts: 995 Critical Contributor
    Beast1970 wrote:
    Dauthi wrote:

    Unless we take into account out of game communication, which I can only assume is not intended by the devs. If you can get them to sticky it somewhere though, I will accept that I am wrong in this.
    Out of game communication just makes it a tiny bit easier. Any alliance can do the same coordination internally using in game chat, so I'd have to assume that some level of coordination was expected and encouraged.

    It's just the opposite, it was unexpected and is discouraged. There are very few (if any) developers who would encourage the use of an exploit (as identified by ICE). They are pretty consistent with avoiding punishment for smaller exploits, as it would do more harm than good in the end, and this one in particular would be nigh impossible to identify.

    Since it is an exploit, it would be something they would like to fix if they could find a practical solution. I imagine this is part of the reason ICE has been responding to our solutions, they may have been tossed around at D3 already icon_e_biggrin.gif
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