**** Carnage (Cletus Kasady) ****

Unknown

So, random thoughts:

A)I really don't see the need for immediate nerf. I understand his abilities are pretty solid, but let's taper expectations. Surgical Strike can do 8-9k easy. Smite can do a metric ton of damage, and Ballet of Death unchecked for 2 or 3 turns is way better. The red also hurts everyone on your team, so you're not going to go nuts with it.

B)With that said, he's certainly a desirable character. Having him on defense with Iron Fist and Luke Cage would officially be a bad day at the office for the person who attacks into it. Would probably earn you a lot of skips, and in the current PVP environment, that's worth a LOT. He also creates enemy tiles, which means that characters like Daredevil, Dr. Octopus and Moonstone got a little better.

C)With 4* covers now being far more attainable after the PVP point increase, I'm not mad about the 4* releases. I've seen enough people in the top tier that shell out big bucks for their maxed out 4*'s, and that generates revenue for D3. I'm not one of them, but I can't get mad at them for finding a profit engine that doesn't impact me directly. It's made the 3*-->4* transition way easier, now that I can count on pulling 3 a week.

He's a good addition, I like him. You should too.

Der_Lex

Try imagining him as a L395 PvE node.
Now try imagining him with one or two red feeder goons.

That for me is enough not to like him.

Malcrof

Der_Lex wrote:

Try imagining him as a L395 PvE node.
Now try imagining him with one or two red feeder goons.

That for me is enough not to like him.

he would kill the goons for you, feeding done.

tanis3303

Der_Lex wrote:

Try imagining him as a L395 PvE node.
Now try imagining him with one or two red feeder goons.

That for me is enough not to like him.

This is where my head is as well. If I see an overabundance of this thing in PvP, *shrug* ...the skip button exists. People are saying that Hulkbuster is the end-all be-all of PvP right now, but you know what? I've NEVER fought a maxed Hulkbuster team. If you hit skip a few times, you'll find something else to beat on, I promise.

But oh man...this sounds like a villain character. Whoever it is, we're going to see him in PvE next to mana battery goons that will have him spamming his powers like nobody's business. Know what PvE doesn't have? A "skip" button.

Der_Lex

Malcrof wrote:

Der_Lex wrote:

Try imagining him as a L395 PvE node.
Now try imagining him with one or two red feeder goons.

That for me is enough not to like him.

he would kill the goons for you, feeding done.

Unfortunately, that one red will probably be enough to kill off any character on your team with less than 10k HP as well, and leave the rest pretty close to death.

I get that his 'hurts your own team' properties will not make him viable for sustained play or climbing. But as an AI character, he will cost you about 2-3 health packs per fight if you take him on, regardless of whether it's in pve or pvp. That's not the kind of character design I see as positive for the game in general, even if I were to end up with a maxed version myself at some point.

Malcrof

Odd question, in PVP if you have him and are battling him, think yours is immune to the damage the other casts? Wonder how they wrote that into the mechanics.


Wouldn't that make for a nifty bug.

Der_Lex

I doubt it. His power is probably programmed as a 'deal X damage to opposing team, Y damage to all on own team except for user'.

If such a loophole could be built in, though, I'll hope they'll use it for the Summers brothers if they ever add Havok to the game.

Unknown

daibar wrote:

Overall best pairings I can see are:

Xavier Falcon SquirrelGirl Bullseye Luke Cage (5 in red)

Pairings: Who to match him up with?
Red generators (speed games)
~HB: Maybe? If you have excess red before firing a repulsor punch, you can do AOE damage with it. Not amazing synergy though with overlap on red/black and HB's hulkproof removing greens.
++Cyclops. Sure. He's got decent health. Guy to go to for the quick kill.
-MNMags - No, too weak to withstand the red AOE, and there's no good blue outlet.

shield makers
+++SquirrelGirl - Put out massive shields to protect from red and black. Further her Nuts do massive damage with enemy attack tiles out.
~Magneto - ok?
+++Falcon - neutralize the attack tiles you put out, make shields to protect from self damage, and INSPIRE! Perfect rainbow to boot, with only 3 actives (eg: not too many colors to focus on collecting, you might actually get bird strike out).
++Cage
++Xavier low health hurts, but blind spot can really boost damage quickly, with auto shield creation as well.

Strike generators (capitalize on )
+Blade - Decent, can steal red with Nightstalker.
++Daken - Good: Heals after red AOE, and synergizes with green collection.
--Patch - probably not, since after a berserker rage, you'll be getting hit twice. Even he can't heal fast enough.
++BP - Decent, really weak shield generator.

Other healers?
~R&G - Maybe? Blue takes forever to get out though.

Tile destroyers (reduce self damage from )
++Bullseye - I really like this pairing for quick ability damage. Use Bullseye's Purple to get rid of the strike tiles and add more. If you can get Bullseye's to trigger, you've got a ton of strikes to use with the attack tiles or the Green ability. Cheap abilities means you get the attack tiles out quicker.
~Daredevil - Competition on red.
+~ DocOck - Depending on how ?Carnage's black works (does it create attack tiles on black?), Doc Ock's black passive may work amazingly or poorly. Manipulation could be slightly better or way better.

Other
-- Storm? (Hailstorm to Green) Too flimsy. Overlap on Black/Green.

====================
Counters
Strike generators. Use his attack tiles against him.
Possibly black tile generators like IF.
--todo (incomplete)

====================
Other comments
- Too many 4*s with red as their power colour!
- If it is Carnage, he has way too much health!
- Another character who owns Storm (Buff Storm!)
- The way his black works will make a significant difference in who he works well with/against.
- 5/3/5

not to rain on your parade, but u should wait till he's ingame in case he gets a nerf

Ben Grimm wrote:

Phillipes wrote:

I dont like this character.

But...

When you release him, dont DARE to nerf him, after 3 months, after people pay 400 - 500 € to max him.

He'll be nerfed. Everyone contemplating spending money on him: he will be nerfed. Might be pre-release, might be at three months, might even take six, but he will be nerfed.

This is ridiculously fast for another 4*. Kingpin came out mid-April; this is the third in 6-7 weeks. That is ludicrously fast for these things.

Accoriding to D3, this is the correct amount of 4*, you're just giving up *kappa*

wingX wrote:

I not sure whether will this character be Carnage, but I don't feel Carnage being a 4* character (he is not really that special enough in the comic universe). I may be bias because I really like Carnage but if he is a 4* character mean there will be extreme low chance for me to obtain him.
Nonetheless I stlll welcome Carnage into MPQ

4* has nothing to do with being 'special' in the comics. 4*Thor was a nobody.

Tatercat wrote:

Yeah, I think it's probably Red Hulk as well. In the comics, when he got angrier, instead of getting stronger, he got radioactive, explaining why this character hurts friend & foe alike. Plus, the destroying of the special titles would fit into a tactical attack, and since Rulk is really life long military man General Thunderbolt Ross, that would make sense too. (He'll be great against Falcon).

But with my luck it will be Carnage and I'll rage quit the game.

Now he goes on fire instead

notamutant wrote:

I always find all this speculation of who the character is so silly, because I regularly read the spoilers thread, and know who it will be. From my perspective, all the people with these Hulk and Juggernaut guesses look stupid, but that is just because I already know who it is, and can't unsee what has been seen. However, I would suggest to the people throwing out random guesses, to just read the spoiler thread rather than listing possible characters that could not be further off from the actual one. It will save space on this thread for later with all the random guesses, and you don't have to wait to find out.

they don't want to read the spoiler thread, trust me, I've tried telling them and got a smart-$$$ response back

Unknown

ShazamFTW wrote:

A)I really don't see the need for immediate nerf. I understand his abilities are pretty solid, but let's taper expectations. Surgical Strike can do 8-9k easy. Smite can do a metric ton of damage, and Ballet of Death unchecked for 2 or 3 turns is way better. The red also hurts everyone on your team, so you're not going to go nuts with it.

I feel this character shifts the game further into P2W territory. Top players are going to go wild with it because it wins games fast. They just can just use health packs to suck it up. While Ballet of Death is a defensive move and probably (?) Elektra's worst ability and unknown's red is Carnage's best, let's compare damage to AP in 4* land anyways.

Ballet of Death: 8 AP 1247 dmg/turn 156 dmg/AP / turn, on a hidden attack tile that procs separately.
Prehistoric Chomp: 7AP straight 359 dmg/AP
Oldest Trick in the Book 8AP: 3525 dmg in a 2 turn countdown => 441 dmg/AP
Smite: 10 AP 4025 dmg + 725 per charged tile, => 402 dmg/AP early game, 765 dmg/AP after power surge.
Repulsor Punch 9AP: 630 dmg / AP, single target, wastes red.
AoE Everyone Damage 8519 dmg / 3616 self dmg => 1217 dmg/AP + 516 self dmg/AP

7 AP is all too easy (+4 boosts +1 red match, or 1 match 4 + 1 match 3 or 2 match 3's + another red AP from a different line clear.) The self damage is nothing if you're avoiding 2 enemy abilities in that time, especially if backed up by a tank.

--edit misread red, corrected by ebolamonkey84

Malcrof

Would be fun if it turned out to be Havoc.. i know it isn't, but still..


Edit: If that red can be sent out as a TU.. would anyone actually use it???

Vhailorx

ShazamFTW wrote:

So, random thoughts:

A)I really don't see the need for immediate nerf. I understand his abilities are pretty solid, but let's taper expectations. Surgical Strike can do 8-9k easy. Smite can do a metric ton of damage, and Ballet of Death unchecked for 2 or 3 turns is way better. The red also hurts everyone on your team, so you're not going to go nuts with it.

B)With that said, he's certainly a desirable character. Having him on defense with Iron Fist and Luke Cage would officially be a bad day at the office for the person who attacks into it. Would probably earn you a lot of skips, and in the current PVP environment, that's worth a LOT. He also creates enemy tiles, which means that characters like Daredevil, Dr. Octopus and Moonstone got a little better.

C)With 4* covers now being far more attainable after the PVP point increase, I'm not mad about the 4* releases. I've seen enough people in the top tier that shell out big bucks for their maxed out 4*'s, and that generates revenue for D3. I'm not one of them, but I can't get mad at them for finding a profit engine that doesn't impact me directly. It's made the 3*-->4* transition way easier, now that I can count on pulling 3 a week.

He's a good addition, I like him. You should too.

I disagree very strongly with your point A. Self damage is by no means a sufficient deterrent if an abilities other uses dominate the meta. This was conclusively proven with sentry. This character makes almost all of the same bad design choices that led to sentry 1.0's dominance. Self damage is a bad design choice. Either the power is bad and does self damage so no one uses it (new rags green), or the power is really good, and the top spenders use it despite the self-dmage, but health packs to makeup the difference, and they upset the meta.

I am not looking forward to this release.

Unknown

Vhailorx wrote:

ShazamFTW wrote:

So, random thoughts:

A)I really don't see the need for immediate nerf. I understand his abilities are pretty solid, but let's taper expectations. Surgical Strike can do 8-9k easy. Smite can do a metric ton of damage, and Ballet of Death unchecked for 2 or 3 turns is way better. The red also hurts everyone on your team, so you're not going to go nuts with it.

B)With that said, he's certainly a desirable character. Having him on defense with Iron Fist and Luke Cage would officially be a bad day at the office for the person who attacks into it. Would probably earn you a lot of skips, and in the current PVP environment, that's worth a LOT. He also creates enemy tiles, which means that characters like Daredevil, Dr. Octopus and Moonstone got a little better.

C)With 4* covers now being far more attainable after the PVP point increase, I'm not mad about the 4* releases. I've seen enough people in the top tier that shell out big bucks for their maxed out 4*'s, and that generates revenue for D3. I'm not one of them, but I can't get mad at them for finding a profit engine that doesn't impact me directly. It's made the 3*-->4* transition way easier, now that I can count on pulling 3 a week.

He's a good addition, I like him. You should too.

I disagree very strongly with your point A. Self damage is by no means a sufficient deterrent if an abilities other uses dominate the meta. This was conclusively proven with sentry. This character makes almost all of the same bad design choices that led to sentry 1.0's dominance. Self damage is a bad design choice. Either the power is bad and does self damage so no one uses it (new rags green), or the power is really good, and the top spenders use it despite the self-dmage, but health packs to makeup the difference, and they upset the meta.

I am not looking forward to this release.

I was going to disagree with you but self-damage, in this game where you can $$$ for health packs can be OP, yeah

fmftint

Godlike Power - Green 14
Ragnarok slams his hammer down, releasing a wave of electricity that scars the battlefield. Deals 203 damage to all enemies and 137 to allies. Destroys a random column. Does not generate AP.
Level 2: Deals 266 damage to enemies and 137 to allies.
Level 3: Deals 331 damage to enemies and 137 to allies.
Level 4: Deals 461 damage to enemies and 137 to allies.
Level 5: Deals 719 damage to enemies and 137 to allies.
MAX Level 5: Deals 2276 damage to all enemies and 435 to allies.

AoE Everyone Damage - 7 AP
Deals 603 damage to the target and 320 damage to everyone else except the user.
Level Upgrades
Level 2: Deals 840 damage to the target and 411 damage to others.
Level 3: Deals 1069 damage to the target and 503 damage to others.
Level 4: Deals 1553 damage to the target and 731 damage to others.
Level 5: Deals 2476 damage to the target and 914 damage to others.
Max Level
Level 3: 2116 / 994 damage.
Level 4: 3075 / 1446 damage.
Level 5: 4903 / 1808 damage.

How much do they value Destroys Random Column?

poomermon

Der_Lex wrote:

Unfortunately, that one red will probably be enough to kill off any character on your team with less than 10k HP as well, and leave the rest pretty close to death.

I get that his 'hurts your own team' properties will not make him viable for sustained play or climbing. But as an AI character, he will cost you about 2-3 health packs per fight if you take him on, regardless of whether it's in pve or pvp. That's not the kind of character design I see as positive for the game in general, even if I were to end up with a maxed version myself at some point.

He is not going to scale that well with levels. Remember he is a 4-star so lvl 395 version of him is not as bad as 3-star would be.

Phaserhawk

Yeah, this guy will be problematic in the long run. Offensively he's not great but defensively he will have no equal, I mean this is a Supernova for 4 less and doesn't end the turn. If this was 11-12 AP then I'm okay, but 7AP for all that damage? If Fury is considered the 4* benchmark of balance, this guy is off the charts.

Warbringa

4* Juggs, as said before powers seem to somewhat parallel the 1* Juggs powers along with high HP. Plus we just had Heroic Juggs event!

Ebolamonkey84

daibar wrote:

ShazamFTW wrote:

A)I really don't see the need for immediate nerf. I understand his abilities are pretty solid, but let's taper expectations. Surgical Strike can do 8-9k easy. Smite can do a metric ton of damage, and Ballet of Death unchecked for 2 or 3 turns is way better. The red also hurts everyone on your team, so you're not going to go nuts with it.

I feel this character shifts the game further into P2W territory. Top players are going to go wild with it because it wins games fast. They just can just use health packs to suck it up. While Ballet of Death is a defensive move and probably (?) Elektra's worst ability and unknown's red is Carnage's best, let's compare damage to AP in 4* land anyways.

Ballet of Death: 8 AP 1247 dmg/turn 156 dmg/AP / turn, on a hidden attack tile that procs separately.
Prehistoric Chomp: 7AP straight 359 dmg/AP
Oldest Trick in the Book 8AP: 3525 dmg in a 2 turn countdown => 441 dmg/AP
Smite: 10 AP 4025 dmg + 725 per charged tile, => 402 dmg/AP early game, 765 dmg/AP after power surge.
Repulsor Punch 9AP: 630 dmg / AP, single target, wastes red.
AoE Everyone Damage 14709 dmg / 3616 self dmg => 2101 dmg/AP + 516 self dmg/AP

It's over 2k dmg/AP for a move you can pull all too easily (+4 boosts +1 red match, or 1 match 4 + 1 match 3 or 2 match 3's + another red AP from a different line clear.) The self damage is nothing if you're avoiding 2 or 3 enemy abilities in that time.

If they toned it down to even 1300 dmg/AP + 350 self dmg/AP , eg 3120 dmg to all enemies, 1225 to allies, it'd be more reasonable. Otherwise, he's a major nerf target. If we were taking bets, I'd say 70% chance of adjustment before release. 30% chance he's left as is and nerfed later after we buy covers.

I think you are misreading his red. It is going to do 4903 + 2(1808) = 8519 dmg / 3616 dmg => 1217 dmg/AP.

This is still pretty darn high, but it isn't ridiculously crazy.

Vhailorx

It's not just the high damage/ap of the skill, it's the low cost and the air damage. There is basically no way to avoid it a least once when you fight this guy. So that's 8.5 guaranteed damage minimum to fight him. And one big red Cascade could lead to multiple castings on multiple turns.

As I have already said, self damage is a bad way to balance otherwise powerful abilities. They should not use this design mechanic.

TheVulture

An interesting character, but from a great distance since I'll never a] have the covers to play it or b] ever not skip a covered one in PvP...

Shocked that 5|5|3 isn't romping the poll; clearly not a character any team combination can utilize repeatedly & a heavily randomized green - I'd have thought 5|5|3 is the obvious build to make it a misery on defense.

Although, I see now just how little difference the black 4th and 5th covers make...

IceIX

Updated OP with actual character information instead of stubs. Also, the damage on levels 4 and 5 of Carnage Rules have been reduced slightly from the initial preview.