**** Iron Man (Hulkbuster) ****

GrumpySmurf1002

sinnerjfl wrote:

It's a bit silly when they could just BALANCE THE FREAKING CHARACTERS. There are clearly 4 characters right now that are top-tier (IMHB, JG, Iceman, Red Hulk) and you can't counter them for another 6 months. Where is the fun in that?

There are closer to 6 top tier, and the two you omitted (4Cyc, XDP) are both good counters for HB/Jean. They can clear the board of red, penalize gathering strongest color, and punish AoE damage.

As others pointed out, HB is still everywhere because he's one of the oldest and most covered (because of the double release) around. Not to say he isn't potent, he is obviously, but teams that are transitioning to 5* land or getting other characters leveled are pushing out the IMHB half of JeanBuster to do so.

With a R/Y/B character now coming in (perfect mirror to the P/U/G characters), it's possible IMHB gets pushed even further back as time goes on.

Yeah, it's a snail process, but what isn't in this game?

Quebbster

Hulkbuster ain't that bad to fight IMO. The AI can't do the Overdrive -> Repulsor punch combo, so you'll always have a turn to react before the Repulsor punch comes. If you are lucky you can down Hulkbuster in that turn, if not you can at least decide who gets hit. I'm much more concerned about the Green/Purple fourstars than I am about the Red/Blue ones - Hulkbuster and Cyclops can mess up one of your guys real good, but Rulk, Iceman and Jean Grey can mess up your entire team if you are not careful.
I can definitely understand that it's frustrating to have to fight Hulkbuster over and over, but once you get the hang of it he's fairly easy to deal with. And let's face it, if you are going to do well you are going to have to learn how to deal with four- and fivestars.

Unknown

sinnerjfl wrote:

PorkBelly wrote:

First, the X-Force & Thoress nerf didn't make PvP better (or at best, that is a highly debatable assertion).

Second, the reason you see lots of JeanBusters out there is because they are relatively old top tier 4*s. There are other 4*s that are just as good as those two. I'd skip a Thing/4pool or an Iceman/4clops or a RedHulk team before I skip JeanBuster.

You just have to wait for people to level those characters, which, given the dearth of ISO-8, might take a while.

Nerfing is never a good idea, in my opinion. It's an extremely lazy way to deal with character balance. It also creates ill will amongst the player base who took the time to develop those characters.

Far better to develop interesting characters who work as counters to existing characters (which seemed to be the point of Iceman in regards to Hulkbuster).

I'd agree with you that making more characters that counter is totally ideal, but do you realize how long it takes the average player to build a counter to a max 4*? It's quite ridiculous, it's around 6 months if not more. That's not exactly balancing the game, maybe in 3* land that made sense but regarding 4* it does not. By the time you build your counter, there's gonna be a new OP 4* and you're gonna have to build another counter etc etc.

It's a bit silly when they could just BALANCE THE FREAKING CHARACTERS. There are clearly 4 characters right now that are top-tier (IMHB, JG, Iceman, Red Hulk) and you can't counter them for another 6 months. Where is the fun in that?

Nerfing is not lazy, it's fixing mistakes because they keep releasing characters who are unbalanced out of the gate to get whales to spend more money. If you don't understand this basic concept that's in the game, then you won't understand anything I'm trying to convey here.

They have been doing this since the start. Release OP characters, get people to spend, nerf 6 months/1 year later. It's normal because the meta is evolving and this is a multiplayer game. Problem is, they haven't balanced anyone in months and it's not getting better.

Out of interest - do you have HB or JB maxed?

lukewin

IMHB and JG will still dominate the 4* land, b/c lots of people have covered and maxed them. Tweaking him isn't going to mean less people will use him. They'll just play with a weaker version, which isn't good for anyone. The AI won't be able to fire a punch after an overdrive, but neither would you.

sinnerjfl

fickle wrote:

Out of interest - do you have HB or JB maxed?

Not maxed but both missing 1 or 2 covers. My opinion won't change either as Ive used HB and quite frankly he is OP. I frankly do not care when my favorites get nerfed and they have been. I care about balance and power creep.

Honestly the tweak I'm suggesting is not a big deal but look how people react, this is why you can never balance characters. You know he's OP and you want to keep profiting from it despite him being unbalanced, whatever. People actually argued Sentry was balanced for a while

Vhailorx

sinnerjfl wrote:

fickle wrote:

Out of interest - do you have HB or JB maxed?

Not maxed but both missing 1 or 2 covers. My opinion won't change either as Ive used HB and quite frankly he is OP. I frankly do not care when my favorites get nerfed and they have been. I care about balance and power creep.

Honestly the tweak I'm suggesting is not a big deal but look how people react, this is why you can never balance characters. You know he's OP and you want to keep profiting from it despite him being unbalanced, whatever. People actually argued Sentry was balanced for a while

Sorry sinner, but I just don't think imhb is overpowered right now (and it appears that my opinion is the majority opinion).

When he was released last spring, and all the way through late august, your argument might have had a point. But since then he has been surpassed. So rather than being an outlier, he was just the first 4* to define a new tier of power (the top 4* tier). As others have noted, that tier now has 4-6 members, there of which are straight up more threatening than IMHB because they combine strong aoe attacks with powerful defensive abilities like stun and ap destruction (and self-acceleration to boot).

Even if I (and demiurge) conceded that the best 4*s were OP (and ignoring the 80000lb. Gorilla that is 5* land) you are still griping about a character that is 4 or 5 on the list. There's just no way that demiurge is going to spend dev resources on tweaking imhb in particular anytime soon.

And nothing in current 4* tier comes close to the,dominance of sentry in fall 2014, or even Thorverine from nov2014-march2015. In both cases there was a single team that provided a massively overwhelming advantage. In the case of sentry, the top team allowed for 100% certain victory in less than 30 sseconds (full boost, match green, world rupture, match yellow, sacrifice, win in round 3). And in the case of Thorverine they took longer to win, but basically couldn't be beat by any team without at least 1 of the two 4*s. And the only thing separating any player from utter dominance was the first cover of each color and about $100 -300of HP/Iso.

A maxed 5* team of OML/Phoenix is arguably even more dominant right now, but it would take thousands of dollars (10s of thousands?) to get such a team from scratch, so the effects on game balance are somehat curtailed.

Quebbster

sinnerjfl wrote:

fickle wrote:

Out of interest - do you have HB or JB maxed?

Not maxed but both missing 1 or 2 covers. My opinion won't change either as Ive used HB and quite frankly he is OP. I frankly do not care when my favorites get nerfed and they have been. I care about balance and power creep.

Honestly the tweak I'm suggesting is not a big deal but look how people react, this is why you can never balance characters. You know he's OP and you want to keep profiting from it despite him being unbalanced, whatever. People actually argued Sentry was balanced for a while

I Think the Point people are trying to make is that he's not that OP anymore, he's just more common than other 4*. For a while he was head and shoulders above other 4* - you'll notice that all the other mentioned 4* are later releases. Later 4* have been at a similar Power level though, so it evens out.

Ruinate

sinnerjfl wrote:

fickle wrote:

Out of interest - do you have HB or JB maxed?

Not maxed but both missing 1 or 2 covers. My opinion won't change either as Ive used HB and quite frankly he is OP. I frankly do not care when my favorites get nerfed and they have been. I care about balance and power creep.

Honestly the tweak I'm suggesting is not a big deal but look how people react, this is why you can never balance characters. You know he's OP and you want to keep profiting from it despite him being unbalanced, whatever. People actually argued Sentry was balanced for a while

I'm surprised you think HB is the stronger of the pair. I've used nothing but Jeanbuster for months because it's the strongest team I can field. Jean does all the lifting and HB cleans up. I think you need to spend more time playing them first before you start assuming **** about the way people are reacting to your posts.

sinnerjfl

Vhailorx wrote:

Sorry sinner, but I just don't think imhb is overpowered right now (and it appears that my opinion is the majority opinion).

When he was released last spring, and all the way through late august, your argument might have had a point. But since then he has been surpassed. So rather than being an outlier, he was just the first 4* to define a new tier of power (the top 4* tier). As others have noted, that tier now has 4-6 members, there of which are straight up more threatening than IMHB because they combine strong aoe attacks with powerful defensive abilities like stun and ap destruction (and self-acceleration to boot).

Even if I conceded that the best 4*s were OP (and ignoring the 80000lb. Gorilla that is 5* land) you are still griping about a character that is 4 or 5 on the list. There's just no way that demiurge is going to spend dev resources on tweaking imhb in particular anytime soon.

Popular ≠ right, especially not when people have a vested interest in keeping things the way they are.

And once again, increasing minimum cast is not even a nerf, it does the same exact damage as before. But at least he won't be able to fire it several times when you face him. On offense, that would not even matter to you.

Quebbster

sinnerjfl wrote:

Vhailorx wrote:

Sorry sinner, but I just don't think imhb is overpowered right now (and it appears that my opinion is the majority opinion).

When he was released last spring, and all the way through late august, your argument might have had a point. But since then he has been surpassed. So rather than being an outlier, he was just the first 4* to define a new tier of power (the top 4* tier). As others have noted, that tier now has 4-6 members, there of which are straight up more threatening than IMHB because they combine strong aoe attacks with powerful defensive abilities like stun and ap destruction (and self-acceleration to boot).

Even if I conceded that the best 4*s were OP (and ignoring the 80000lb. Gorilla that is 5* land) you are still griping about a character that is 4 or 5 on the list. There's just no way that demiurge is going to spend dev resources on tweaking imhb in particular anytime soon.

Popular ≠ right, especially not when people have a vested interest in keeping things the way they are.

And once again, increasing minimum cast is not even a nerf, it does the same exact damage as before. But at least he won't be able to fire it several times when you face him. On offense, that would not even matter to you.

But that's the point: When you know what you are doing against a Hulkbuster, he usually won't fire Repulsor Punch even once.

sinnerjfl

Ruinate wrote:

I'm surprised you think HB is the stronger of the pair. I've used nothing but Jeanbuster for months because it's the strongest team I can field. Jean does all the lifting and HB cleans up. I think you need to spend more time playing them first before you start assuming tinykitty about the way people are reacting to your posts.

Just gonna reply to the two above. I don't think HB is the stronger actually, which is why I'd rather see a tweak to HB and downright nerf JG (purple is too cheap, too much utility & damage).

DAMAGE WOULD STAY THE SAME ON HB. <_< Christ, don't touch my toys!!!!!

Regarding the other even stronger 4*'s (JG, Iceman, Rulk), they're relatively new so I don't mind that they're more powerful, that's fine. But you need to balance them down the line when people start maxing them. JG is also everywhere now and it's also a problem to see how much damage she outputs.

And there was also a bunch of 4*'s released who quite frankly don't even matter (Venom, TA Hulk, Mr F). The tiers are so clear, maybe we should strive for more balance at some point. The counter thing is silly considering how long it takes to do anything in this game.

sinnerjfl

Quebbster wrote:

But that's the point: When you know what you are doing against a Hulkbuster, he usually won't fire Repulsor Punch even once.

Yeaaaaaaahhhhhh... and sometimes the AI cascades into 12 with it's first move. A 9 AP move is very hard to stop especially when he has that godlike health (even with an AP steal/drain)

Vhailorx

sinnerjfl wrote:

Popular ≠ right, especially not when people have a vested interest in keeping things the way they are.

And once again, increasing minimum cast is not even a nerf, it does the same exact damage as before. But at least he won't be able to fire it several times when you face him. On offense, that would not even matter to you.

Increasing the cost of an ability is a nerf, even if it is a minor one. But I think the point that we are trying get to across for you is that IMHB is a fair way down the list of most powerful characters. He is also an older (i.e. better covered) character, so he shows up frequently. But nerfing him now is pointless. It will hurt people who use him, and everyone will still be fighting the other, more powerful 4*s anyway. In a few months, people will see more rhulk/Jean/iceman teams anyway (and more 5* teams too) and IMHB will be as relevant as black panther after iron fist/cyclops/cage/khan came out (i.e. still ok if he was all you had, but not worth using unboosted if you had a full roster).

TxMoose

like I've said elsewhere, if hb and jean deserve nerfs, then so do rulk and iceman. cyke is strong, but the lower hp balances him some. with the general power creep in the game, I don't see hb or jean as op at all. they are top tier, but not op. they are the 4* versions of fist and cylops and cage in the 3*s, and nobody wants those nerfed.

Cousin Simpson

I have a 5/4/3 IMHB at 70. Should I put all available ISO into him, or just enough to beat DDQ? To provide some context: my ISO priorities were Starlord (yes) and then XFDP, but then I pulled a red IMHB to make suddenly more enticing.

SnowcaTT

TxMoose wrote:

like I've said elsewhere, if hb and jean deserve nerfs, then so do rulk and iceman. cyke is strong, but the lower hp balances him some. with the general power creep in the game, I don't see hb or jean as op at all. they are top tier, but not op. they are the 4* versions of fist and cylops and cage in the 3*s, and nobody wants those nerfed.

The two characters I paid for the HP to finish off the last two covers were HB (the first top-tier 4*) and Jean (the 2nd). I think this is one reason that lots play it together - it is an older character set. Another reason is detailed below: better AI play.

I agree with TxMoose here - there is a definite tier that is good in 4*, and Cyc/Ice/Rulk all are in there. Certainly when I maxed Rulk and stared running him with HB I took -way- less hits than JeanBuster - simply because it is a higher health team that will take longer to churn through. I think that is the only downfall of Jeanbuster - Jean is really easy to take down quickly.

I still prefer HB in the top-tier range...but that's because the AI can't mess him up. Sure, it will fire blue/black/red immediately when there could be -better- times, but it will always hurt the opponent.

Cyc getting a optimal red off, Iceman getting an optimal (double) blue off, Rhulk getting an optimal green off...all of those don't happen on the AI side.

I don't think any of them deserve a nerf, and some of the top players (that already have the other 4*'s maxed) have said some of the newer characters are near-equivalents in this tier (Quake and Punisher to name two). I avoided Jean like the plague when I didn't have her - always seemed to get bad cascades and bad luck. But part of it was just not knowing how to play against her - once you play -with- these characters a bit more, you know how to play against them. Now I look forward to taking on unboosted Jeanbuster teams with boosted 4*'s, it is an easy matchup to take down with very little damage against yourself.

Quebbster

Cousin Simpson wrote:

I have a 5/4/3 IMHB at 70. Should I put all available ISO into him, or just enough to beat DDQ? To provide some context: my ISO priorities were Starlord (yes) and then XFDP, but then I pulled a red IMHB to make suddenly more enticing.

Hulkbuster is an excellent start to the 4* transition - you can start out with Fistbuster and then progress to a 4* duo when the time is right. In short, leveling him up should be an immediate priority. He's not the absolute top of the heap anymore, but he's still dang good and easy to use. 5 red is important to max his damage output, but there's not much difference between level 250 and level 270.

Cousin Simpson

I've championed IMHB and used him a bit in my PVP Simulator climb, but I'm not sure I'm using him anywhere close to optimally, since I had to use a health pack on him after almost every match. How do I shot Fistbuster more efficiently, or is the self-damage one of the reasons why he's not exactly #1 anymore?

TxMoose

Cousin Simpson wrote:

I've championed IMHB and used him a bit in my PVP Simulator climb, but I'm not sure I'm using him anywhere close to optimally, since I had to use a health pack on him after almost every match. How do I shot Fistbuster more efficiently, or is the self-damage one of the reasons why he's not exactly #1 anymore?

fistbuster is heavy on healthpack usage. because not only is he tanking and taking hits, his best acceleration is self damaging. for a single fight, its great. for long, extended play sessions, its tough. that's why jeanbuster quickly replaced fistbuster in the meta. plus her aoe can really take advantage for the strikes hb black leaves. all the better if her green provides an attack tile. but, yeah, its healthpack central.

spectator

short term pain, long term gain. Think about how much more health packs you may have to use if the match drags on. Overdrive is well worth the small amount of damage you take.