**** Iron Man (Hulkbuster) ****

simonsez

Phaserhawk wrote:

So I have really been wanting to take this guy to 5/3/5 as it allows me to pair him with other 4*'s, like X-Force, King Pin, and PX but after running the numbers, I just can't justify doing it

If you're using him with KP, you're almost always going to want to use black AP for KP, no?

Phaserhawk

simonsez wrote:

Phaserhawk wrote:

So I have really been wanting to take this guy to 5/3/5 as it allows me to pair him with other 4*'s, like X-Force, King Pin, and PX but after running the numbers, I just can't justify doing it

If you're using him with KP, you're almost always going to want to use black AP for KP, no?

Correct. But I'm wondering even if I do, the extra 2 tiles converted just don't seem to be worth it even if you only use KP, having HB black as a backup might be better. Because I'm thinking very soon that any 3* not buffed in PvP is a liability, so I see myself pairing HB/exclusively with KP currently, hence my reasoning to go 5:3/5

Phaserhawk

simonsez wrote:

Phaserhawk wrote:

So I have really been wanting to take this guy to 5/3/5 as it allows me to pair him with other 4*'s, like X-Force, King Pin, and PX but after running the numbers, I just can't justify doing it

If you're using him with KP, you're almost always going to want to use black AP for KP, no?

Correct. But I'm wondering even if I do, the extra 2 tiles converted just don't seem to be worth it even if you only use KP, having HB black as a backup might be better. Because I'm thinking very soon that any 3* not buffed in PvP is a liability, so I see myself pairing HB/exclusively with KP currently, hence my reasoning to go 5:3/5

mjh

In the PvP meta, 5/5/3 is the only build with no question, no matter the partner from what I've seen / battled.

Here is a little saving grace for all those still trying to put together a Buster of Hulks.

5/5/3 build as it should be

level 250
HP - 16,489
81
72
63

622dmg/AP (622 x 9 = 5,598)
1,518 self dmg + 2 x 348

********************
level 270 (Max)
HP - 17,759
82
73
64

630dmg/AP (9 x 630 = 5,670)
1,538 self dmg + 2 x 354

**********************************
cost from 250 -> MAX: 79k
gain 1, 1, 1
+8dmg/AP (+72dmg if 9 AP fired)
+20 self dmg + 2 x 6
HP +1,270

I'm not as convinced as I was for who had almost 3k hp bump between these 2 levels. I may split the difference and go to 260 but no more than that while there are still other guys to level.

simonsez

Phaserhawk wrote:

Because I'm thinking very soon that any 3* not buffed in PvP is a liability, so I see myself pairing HB/exclusively with KP currently, hence my reasoning to go 5:3/5

If that's the plan, I would agree with that.

On the other hand, after getting beat down in Psy PvP from 1103 to 767 with carnage/antman up, I'm not sure "PvP liability" is even a thing anymore. Would I have been any lower if I'd just left up HB and unbuffed Fist? Thinking not...

GrumpySmurf1002

Phaserhawk wrote:

So I have really been wanting to take this guy to 5/3/5 as it allows me to pair him with other 4*'s, like X-Force, King Pin, and PX but after running the numbers, I just can't justify doing it, even though if you run him with those guys, it makes more sense to go 5/3/5 it's just the loss of 2 tiles being overwritten is a total loss of about 1 red AP and maybe 1-2 other colored AP from a cascade, vs. getting 3 more AP and massive strike tiles at 3-5 in black.

Can anyone come up with a statistically better reason to go 5/3/5 over 5/5/3. Take strike tiles and def tiles out of it. Does 11 black AP into 9 Red AP a better option over creating 7 green into red for a cascade. I'm sure blue has a better payoff if it goes off? Thoughts, comments?

Not statistically so no. Even if you used his black strictly as part of a finishing move, you're giving up 2232 damage.

To the bigger point, there's a couple alliance mates running Carnage-HB right now, and using HB as the red feeder for Carnage. I'd never suggest running 3/5/5 just because that's how they're using him.

My philosophy: If a combo doesn't work, don't change a strong character to try to make the combo work, find a different combo. If IMHB at 5/5/3 doesn't work great with KP because of the black overlap, then swap one of them out, but don't change their builds.

Phaserhawk

simonsez wrote:

Phaserhawk wrote:

Because I'm thinking very soon that any 3* not buffed in PvP is a liability, so I see myself pairing HB/exclusively with KP currently, hence my reasoning to go 5:3/5

If that's the plan, I would agree with that.

On the other hand, after getting beat down in Psy PvP from 1103 to 767 with carnage/antman up, I'm not sure "PvP liability" is even a thing anymore. Would I have been any lower if I'd just left up HB and unbuffed Fist? Thinking not...

I should have clarified, I wasn't talking defensively, I meant offensively. As good as Fistbuster is, when they run up against full maxed and buffed 4* and 3* and they are not, IF is a liability, it's not as bad if HB/KP are there as you have double the hitpoints with KP

GrumpySmurf1002 wrote:

Phaserhawk wrote:

So I have really been wanting to take this guy to 5/3/5 as it allows me to pair him with other 4*'s, like X-Force, King Pin, and PX but after running the numbers, I just can't justify doing it, even though if you run him with those guys, it makes more sense to go 5/3/5 it's just the loss of 2 tiles being overwritten is a total loss of about 1 red AP and maybe 1-2 other colored AP from a cascade, vs. getting 3 more AP and massive strike tiles at 3-5 in black.

Can anyone come up with a statistically better reason to go 5/3/5 over 5/5/3. Take strike tiles and def tiles out of it. Does 11 black AP into 9 Red AP a better option over creating 7 green into red for a cascade. I'm sure blue has a better payoff if it goes off? Thoughts, comments?

Not statistically so no. Even if you used his black strictly as part of a finishing move, you're giving up 2232 damage.

To the bigger point, there's a couple alliance mates running Carnage-HB right now, and using HB as the red feeder for Carnage. I'd never suggest running 3/5/5 just because that's how they're using him.

My philosophy: If a combo doesn't work, don't change a strong character to try to make the combo work, find a different combo. If IMHB at 5/5/3 doesn't work great with KP because of the black overlap, then swap one of them out, but don't change their builds.

I agree with that logic, the thing is HB/KP work very well together, my wondering, is, is it worth it to try to make them work even better together? In addition the combo of HB if you go black into red is 6370 assuming no red plus the strike tiles but it costs you 20AP and 1538 life.

KP Assuming you had to go yellow into black is only 5268 for 16, but if you add a second black, for 22 AP you do 10536 that's 478 per AP vs. 318.

Polares

Phaserhawk wrote:

I agree with that logic, the thing is HB/KP work very well together, my wondering, is, is it worth it to try to make them work even better together? In addition the combo of HB if you go black into red is 6370 assuming no red plus the strike tiles but it costs you 20AP and 1538 life.

KP Assuming you had to go yellow into black is only 5268 for 16, but if you add a second black, for 22 AP you do 10536 that's 478 per AP vs. 318.

????????

I think you made a mistake there. This is just for 11AP, the 9 red are free, you dont need to collect them so the ratio for IMHB is 579 (you cant add them like that to the cost when they are free), and 2 strikes on the board. And you dont need to wait for anything, you get 11 black, you fire both abilitites.

For 22 black AP IMHB does 13000+ damage, so the ratio is even better (around 590), and you have 4 deadly strike tiles in the board.

Phaserhawk

Polares wrote:

Phaserhawk wrote:

I agree with that logic, the thing is HB/KP work very well together, my wondering, is, is it worth it to try to make them work even better together? In addition the combo of HB if you go black into red is 6370 assuming no red plus the strike tiles but it costs you 20AP and 1538 life.

KP Assuming you had to go yellow into black is only 5268 for 16, but if you add a second black, for 22 AP you do 10536 that's 478 per AP vs. 318.

????????

I think you made a mistake there. This is just for 11AP, the 9 red are free, you dont need to collect them so the ratio for IMHB is 579 (you cant add them like that to the cost when they are free), and 2 strikes on the board. And you dont need to wait for anything, you get 11 black, you fire both abilitites.

For 22 black AP IMHB does 13000+ damage, so the ratio is even better (around 590), and you have 4 deadly strike tiles in the board.

Red is by no means free. It's like when we just were at the fair, all rides were 1 ticket, but tickets were $1.25. So I'm paying $5 for 4 tickets. You are paying 11 AP for 9AP. That is why despite naysayers, HB is unto himself, balanced. He really only has 1 skill, the rest just make that skill go faster.

Vhailorx

Phaserhawk, that doesn't change the fact that 11 black ap gets you the 9 red ap necessary to use the red skill and do 6.3k damage (with strikes). When talking about opportunity costs, it's fair to consider those red ap. But When calculating the damage/per ap, those 9 red don't count; the effect would be the same if the skill description was deal self damage, produce strike tiles, and then deal 5.8k damage to target.

Also, compared to kingpin the value is a little higher because 600+ in strike tiles has some future value (we could argue over the exact value added).

Unknown

Is HB a good first **** to have? Thinking about purchasing the last couple covers I need for him and pumping him with ISO.


(I mainly PvP and sometimes PvE until progression depending on the event)

TxMoose

hb is a great 1st 4*. he was my first about 8 weeks ago and there have been many that have done exactly what you're considering. he's a perfect partner for fist too and most people have a maxed fist. with fist you should be able to start hitting 1K and start filling out your other 4*s. I added the 5th red on mine with hp but have held out on black and will get my pay-off in hood's pvp to finish spec'ing him.

edit - to be optimal with fist you want 5 red and 5 black FYI. blue helps but isn't nearly as critical as black and red. when I ran fistbuster having 4 black slowed mine down a bit.

Quebbster

I have little issue hitting 1000 Points in every PvP with Fistbuster, and in the right slice 1300 is fairly easy (as long as you are willing to shield). So yes, he is definitely a good first fourstar to have. You'll get plenty of others with his help.

sinnerjfl

What are everyone's thoughts on raising the cost of his red to 10 or 11 AP?

Not changing the damage, only the cost of the ability. That would slow him down a little (which is the point because he is insanely fast at dealing damage), and one cast of his wouldn't guarantee a punch in the face right away if he was at 0

Facing him is just really annoying because it's guaranteed the AI will get 9 red, its not exactly hard even for the shackled AI. IMHB is everywhere in PVP, there's a reason for it. He is just slightly too good.

If anything, it wouldnt change much for players because as long as you have a few reds, you'll always be able to Overdrive + Punch. When facing him, it would give you a chance to avoid the damage or slow it down a little.

Vhailorx

Does he need to be slowed down? I feel like the meta has mostly passed him by (4*s like jean, iceman, rhulk, plus 5*s are all more important in the endgame). Tweaking him seems like a low priority.

notamutant

sinnerjfl wrote:

What are everyone's thoughts on raising the cost of his red to 10 or 11 AP?

Not changing the damage, only the cost of the ability. That would slow him down a little (which is the point because he is insanely fast at dealing damage), and one cast of his wouldn't guarantee a punch in the face right away if he was at 0

Facing him is just really annoying because it's guaranteed the AI will get 9 red, its not exactly hard even for the shackled AI. IMHB is everywhere in PVP, there's a reason for it. He is just slightly too good.

If anything, it wouldnt change much for players because as long as you have a few reds, you'll always be able to Overdrive + Punch. When facing him, it would give you a chance to avoid the damage or slow it down a little.

Actually, I often avoid him getting off a red when I play against him using my own HB/JG team. He maybe gets it off 1/3 of the matches. And when you have your own HB, tanking one punch isn't the end of the world. And you can get rid of the strike tiles created with a JG purple next turn.

sinnerjfl

notamutant wrote:

Actually, I often avoid him getting off a red when I play against him using my own HB/JG team. He maybe gets it off 1/3 of the matches. And when you have your own HB, tanking one punch isn't the end of the world. And you can get rid of the strike tiles created with a JG purple next turn.

That's great and all but don't you see that it's becoming a problem, HB & JG are the solution to pretty much any team out there. It's pretty much the 2 characters you see constantly because they are too good. HB doesnt need a nerf but maybe some tweaks.

Also, not everyone has max HB & JG nor should it be the goal of the game to max those 2 characters to be remotely competitive. We had this before and the problematic characters were nerfed (X-Force Wolv, Thoress) and the game was better off.

Might be the time to do the same to HB/JG. I know it's not a popular opinion but when all you see in PVP are those two, there might be a problem here.

PorkBelly

sinnerjfl wrote:

notamutant wrote:

Actually, I often avoid him getting off a red when I play against him using my own HB/JG team. He maybe gets it off 1/3 of the matches. And when you have your own HB, tanking one punch isn't the end of the world. And you can get rid of the strike tiles created with a JG purple next turn.

That's great and all but don't you see that it's becoming a problem, HB & JG are the solution to pretty much any team out there. It's pretty much the 2 characters you see constantly because they are too good. HB doesnt need a nerf but maybe some tweaks.

Also, not everyone has max HB & JG nor should it be the goal of the game to max those 2 characters to be remotely competitive. We had this before and the problematic characters were nerfed (X-Force Wolv, Thoress) and the game was better off.

Might be the time to do the same to HB/JG. I know it's not a popular opinion but when all you see in PVP are those two, there might be a problem here.

First, the X-Force & Thoress nerf didn't make PvP better (or at best, that is a highly debatable assertion).

Second, the reason you see lots of JeanBusters out there is because they are relatively old top tier 4*s. There are other 4*s that are just as good as those two. I'd skip a Thing/4pool or an Iceman/4clops or a RedHulk team before I skip JeanBuster.

You just have to wait for people to level those characters, which, given the dearth of ISO-8, might take a while.

Nerfing is never a good idea, in my opinion. It's an extremely lazy way to deal with character balance. It also creates ill will amongst the player base who took the time to develop those characters.

Far better to develop interesting characters who work as counters to existing characters (which seemed to be the point of Iceman in regards to Hulkbuster).

TxMoose

I see plenty of rulks, icemans, xpools, etc. out there compared the xf/thor days where you saw NOTHING but xf/thor. they are effective, but so are Cyclops/rulk and iceman/nearly any red or black or yellow damage dealer. I did not run jean in KK or gsbw pvps (still made 1300 in each, even with the nerfed 3*s) and might not run hb in a cmags or a 3cyke event - might depend on boosteds and color combos.

sinnerjfl

PorkBelly wrote:

First, the X-Force & Thoress nerf didn't make PvP better (or at best, that is a highly debatable assertion).

Second, the reason you see lots of JeanBusters out there is because they are relatively old top tier 4*s. There are other 4*s that are just as good as those two. I'd skip a Thing/4pool or an Iceman/4clops or a RedHulk team before I skip JeanBuster.

You just have to wait for people to level those characters, which, given the dearth of ISO-8, might take a while.

Nerfing is never a good idea, in my opinion. It's an extremely lazy way to deal with character balance. It also creates ill will amongst the player base who took the time to develop those characters.

Far better to develop interesting characters who work as counters to existing characters (which seemed to be the point of Iceman in regards to Hulkbuster).

I'd agree with you that making more characters that counter is totally ideal, but do you realize how long it takes the average player to build a counter to a max 4*? It's quite ridiculous, it's around 6 months if not more. That's not exactly balancing the game, maybe in 3* land that made sense but regarding 4* it does not. By the time you build your counter, there's gonna be a new OP 4* and you're gonna have to build another counter etc etc.

It's a bit silly when they could just BALANCE THE FREAKING CHARACTERS. There are clearly 4 characters right now that are top-tier (IMHB, JG, Iceman, Red Hulk) and you can't counter them for another 6 months. Where is the fun in that?

Nerfing is not lazy, it's fixing mistakes because they keep releasing characters who are unbalanced out of the gate to get whales to spend more money. If you don't understand this basic concept that's in the game, then you won't understand anything I'm trying to convey here.

They have been doing this since the start. Release OP characters, get people to spend, nerf 6 months/1 year later. It's normal because the meta is evolving and this is a multiplayer game. Problem is, they haven't balanced anyone in months and it's not getting better.