*** Quicksilver (Pietro Maximoff) ***

Unknown

Phaserhawk wrote:

And I can agree with the double crit and swap removal but the AP costs are just terrible, the only way this guy is any good is if they go 9 black--Blue going off on 4th match not 5th and green also at 9. Then you esstially could have a 6 cc guy, but when he removes all of the locked tiles he just spent getting.

The other option is not to have the tiles get destroyed, just keep building like how Doom's purple is, for every blue with 4 on the board the damage is dealt, but don't remove the tiles!!!!

So much potential and so wasted, very sad he had the makings of a cool character until all of this.

The new AP cost would make sense if it still did double swap/double crit. The old cost would be fine if it only did a single swap/crit, possibly limit it to min 6 AP instead of 5 AP as a precaution. In practical terms it's not like you'll hit 4 bubbles very often anyway given the AI's affinity to blow up TU tiles. The problem with the original design was that they made him overpowered on a very unlikely condition but the two does not cancel themselves out. Let's say you make Blade's passive create triple strength strike tiles, but creates them for the enemy if there aren't enough red tiles. This is almost certainly a strictly weaker character but there will be games where you run into Blade with 12 red on the board and you just lose, and that's a very bad design even if Blade is a much weaker character in this incarnation. I think they gut his abilities because -4 AP is potentially a huge boost, but they should've just reduce the maximum possible AP reduction, which was never very likely to achieve in the first place.

Unknown

Phantron wrote:

Phaserhawk wrote:

Phantron wrote:

Eh, he was randomly broken with his old stats, so I can see why they nerfed him. He'd be pretty weak most of the time but if you randomly have 4 bubbles locked in the right place he'd pump out absolutely insane moves. Now I guess these moves are meant to be used after the board has stablized for a while where you can collect enough AP and then wait for 4 tiles to be locked. I'm not sure if that's a good design but creating 2 crit is worth at least 4 random AP in even the worst cases and swap 4 tiles is strictly better than being able to place 2 tiles of any color so that couldn't have stayed at a potential cost of 5 AP.

Except one match blue and all the lock tiles are destroyed and you have to start over again, so sure you could of had some fun swapping here and there but it still would have been a 5AP costed black, even if he was going crazy he would have been unrelyable. I say bring black and green back to what they were and make blue single target but only destroying one locked tile

I said he's going to be pretty weak most of the time even under the old system. It'd be like how Blade just isn't very good if you can't get red tiles to stick but in a much more extreme form. If you remember the days where you can rack up crazy environmental points in high-tech environment you'll know that being able to put 4 crit tiles (2 uses of green at 10 AP at the lowest possible cost) almost always leads to a massive clearing of the board and even at 2 there are very good potentials. A black that swaps 2 pairs of tiles is going to usually create 2 match 5s (being able to swap 4 is as good as placing 2 of any color over basic) and maybe even a bit more since you might be able to get a match 3 from swapping back whatever you needed to make the match 5. Yes a massive board shaking move will probably clear your bubbles in some way but you'd already have a game deciding edge at that point. His green/black did too much board control that they'd never be allowed to even situationally be used at 5 AP. I don't think weakening their effect and increase the cost is the right way to go, but one of the two had to happen. I think taking away the double crit/swap should've been enough.

I think you over estimate the number of times you get a match 4. To create 2 match 5s with swaps you need 2 clusters of single colors either match 4s you can make match 5s or groups of 4 you can make into crits or match 5s. I'd be willing to give you 2 swaps probably guarentees 1 crit tile, but not 2. And the random crit tiles are random. Means his 4x crit might not even come into play, or it could be placed in a corner with no good move available, or it could crit 2 TU tiles and kill one of your locks.

I'm not even convinced that his old setup was that great, outside the one synergy with Prof X. These discount abilities seem to get balanced around "min cost" instead of "average cost". Like if it was balanced (before) to be a cost 7 ability then it's bad when you have 2 or less locks, ok at 3, and good at 4. Now tho, they are all pretty terrible except at 4 locks and even then not super good. All his damage output basically relies on crit tiles, which are too random.

Punisher5784

Punisher5784 wrote:

Now that we have a character who can easily swap two tiles, can we fix Moonstone so her tile swapping isn't random? She would be a 100x better if I could choose the two tiles I want swapped.

Attention Arondite (who decided to negative vote me):

My suggestion was not a 'buff' but a quick fix. It would not make the CPU opponent any more difficult. It would only help us if she had the ability to swap two tiles of our choice. That is how the mechanic should had been to begin with, not the randomness. This would help the 2* transitioners as there aren't many decent Pink options outside of OBW. There is nothing more annoying than having 2 different color CDs on the board, and the one that swaps is the wrong CD color.

So instead of negative voting people, how about asking for clarification. Thanks.

Unknown

Lerysh wrote:

I think you over estimate the number of times you get a match 4. To create 2 match 5s with swaps you need 2 clusters of single colors either match 4s you can make match 5s or groups of 4 you can make into crits or match 5s. I'd be willing to give you 2 swaps probably guarentees 1 crit tile, but not 2. And the random crit tiles are random. Means his 4x crit might not even come into play, or it could be placed in a corner with no good move available, or it could crit 2 TU tiles and kill one of your locks.

I'm not even convinced that his old setup was that great, outside the one synergy with Prof X. These discount abilities seem to get balanced around "min cost" instead of "average cost". Like if it was balanced (before) to be a cost 7 ability then it's bad when you have 2 or less locks, ok at 3, and good at 4. Now tho, they are all pretty terrible except at 4 locks and even then not super good. All his damage output basically relies on crit tiles, which are too random.

Swap 2 pairs of tiles is at least as good as being able to place 2 tiles of any color over any basic tile. Obviously that should be more than enough to create at least 1 match 5 of practically any color (including green/black to fuel itself), and even if you can't do 2 match 4/5s you should be able to go for something like a match 5 + 2 match 3s. Random crits are, well, random, but once you have 4 of them up (possibly as low as 10 green AP) there's nothing random anymore. You're right that it's not likely to have 4 locked tiles on the board but the game has to be balanced to ensure that the game is not randomly broken whenever there are 4 locked tile on the board, because it sure isn't an impossible situation either. If there was a character who has a passive: 5% chance to automatically win the game at the start of a game (and only the start of the game) and does absolutely nothing else, this character is likely way below the curve in terms of power, but do you really want to fight this guy? Especially in a shield hop situation? The expected power of Quicksilver is probably average at best even under the old incarnation but he dips into the 'low chance to instantly win the game' with his mechanisms which cannot stay as is. I don't know why they didn't just decrease his AP reduction, which is admittedly unlikely, instead of gutting his abilities. I think double swap would still be too strong to stay anywhere under 3 matches because it should at least be able to produce a match 5 of arbitary color + another match 3. The double crit is significantly less likely for abuse and putting min cost at 6 would mean you'll need 12 green to put 4 crits on the board, which is already in the AP range for bomb moves so if that blew up the board, it's probably okay.

Phaserhawk

Phantron wrote:

Phaserhawk wrote:

And I can agree with the double crit and swap removal but the AP costs are just terrible, the only way this guy is any good is if they go 9 black--Blue going off on 4th match not 5th and green also at 9. Then you esstially could have a 6 cc guy, but when he removes all of the locked tiles he just spent getting.

The other option is not to have the tiles get destroyed, just keep building like how Doom's purple is, for every blue with 4 on the board the damage is dealt, but don't remove the tiles!!!!

So much potential and so wasted, very sad he had the makings of a cool character until all of this.

The new AP cost would make sense if it still did double swap/double crit. The old cost would be fine if it only did a single swap/crit, possibly limit it to min 6 AP instead of 5 AP as a precaution. In practical terms it's not like you'll hit 4 bubbles very often anyway given the AI's affinity to blow up TU tiles. The problem with the original design was that they made him overpowered on a very unlikely condition but the two does not cancel themselves out. Let's say you make Blade's passive create triple strength strike tiles, but creates them for the enemy if there aren't enough red tiles. This is almost certainly a strictly weaker character but there will be games where you run into Blade with 12 red on the board and you just lose, and that's a very bad design even if Blade is a much weaker character in this incarnation. I think they gut his abilities because -4 AP is potentially a huge boost, but they should've just reduce the maximum possible AP reduction, which was never very likely to achieve in the first place.

But even in the worst case scenario he still wouldn't have done much. Rember upon the 5th blue match "ALL LOCKED TILES ARE DESTROYED!!!!" So the ability to ever do anything for much was not going to happen. Lets say you got black to make 2 blue matches after 4 were on the board. Well you do 2K Aoe, you would have done 1300 from black and now you only have 2 locked tiles on the board, You have no black AP unless you got lucky from the cascade and now your skills are only reduced by 2 again. Which requires more blue matches which at this point in time the board is probably pretty void of blue. Now assuming you went 5/3/5 just to get crazy black and green, the only hope of constantly feeding the two abilities is to get god awful lucky on cascades which the lock tiles are blocking. Yes black could in theory keep feeding itself but not bloody likely, and as you said, if you only have 1 swap then you fix it so it can't self sustain. BTW D3, that "large damage bump" is an absolute joke.

To nerf a guy based solely on lucky cascades seems completely stupid because that's the only way he even becomes remotely broken. So not only did they royal mess up with pre-nerf, these knee jerk reaction nerfs are completely the wrong way, seriously they Sentry/Rags nerfed him before releasing him. He is a complete an utter waste of a roster slot, I'm talking he's Beast/Doc Ock bad. Apparently this is geriatric Quicksilver because he's running at about that pace.

100% complete an utter trash, and to think as you pointed out he's so simple to tweak yet once again what can be done with a scalpel D3 uses a sledgehammer

Unknown

Phantron wrote:

Lerysh wrote:

I think you over estimate the number of times you get a match 4. To create 2 match 5s with swaps you need 2 clusters of single colors either match 4s you can make match 5s or groups of 4 you can make into crits or match 5s. I'd be willing to give you 2 swaps probably guarentees 1 crit tile, but not 2. And the random crit tiles are random. Means his 4x crit might not even come into play, or it could be placed in a corner with no good move available, or it could crit 2 TU tiles and kill one of your locks.

I'm not even convinced that his old setup was that great, outside the one synergy with Prof X. These discount abilities seem to get balanced around "min cost" instead of "average cost". Like if it was balanced (before) to be a cost 7 ability then it's bad when you have 2 or less locks, ok at 3, and good at 4. Now tho, they are all pretty terrible except at 4 locks and even then not super good. All his damage output basically relies on crit tiles, which are too random.

Swap 2 pairs of tiles is at least as good as being able to place 2 tiles of any color over any basic tile. Obviously that should be more than enough to create at least 1 match 5 of practically any color (including green/black to fuel itself), and even if you can't do 2 match 4/5s you should be able to go for something like a match 5 + 2 match 3s. Random crits are, well, random, but once you have 4 of them up (possibly as low as 10 green AP) there's nothing random anymore. You're right that it's not likely to have 4 locked tiles on the board but the game has to be balanced to ensure that the game is not randomly broken whenever there are 4 locked tile on the board, because it sure isn't an impossible situation either. If there was a character who has a passive: 5% chance to automatically win the game at the start of a game (and only the start of the game) and does absolutely nothing else, this character is likely way below the curve in terms of power, but do you really want to fight this guy? Especially in a shield hop situation? The expected power of Quicksilver is probably average at best even under the old incarnation but he dips into the 'low chance to instantly win the game' with his mechanisms which cannot stay as is. I don't know why they didn't just decrease his AP reduction, which is admittedly unlikely, instead of gutting his abilities. I think double swap would still be too strong to stay anywhere under 3 matches because it should at least be able to produce a match 5 of arbitary color + another match 3. The double crit is significantly less likely for abuse and putting min cost at 6 would mean you'll need 12 green to put 4 crits on the board, which is already in the AP range for bomb moves so if that blew up the board, it's probably okay.

Yea, Ok, but you are not making 2 crits anymore, and not for cost 5 either. If they are worried about board degredation on his green just take the crit out all together and make it do something like 3200 damage. At 6 that would be ~500 per AP, decent for a 3* nuker. At >6 it becomes less worthy. A single random crit tile isn't worth whatever damage he's lost from a direct damage power calculation IMO.

And making his black cost 11-4 to 7, just no. Rework it in some other way, but a move that takes 2-4 blue matches and 3 black matches to function is not a speedster move.

Phaserhawk wrote:

But even in the worst case scenario he still wouldn't have done much. Rember upon the 5th blue match "ALL LOCKED TILES ARE DESTROYED!!!!" So the ability to ever do anything for much was not going to happen. Lets say you got black to make 2 blue matches after 4 were on the board. Well you do 2K Aoe, you would have done 1300 from black and now you only have 2 locked tiles on the board, You have no black AP unless you got lucky from the cascade and now your skills are only reduced by 2 again.

Yea, part of the reason why the upscaling of his costs AND the nerfing of his abilities before he even gets released is just plain stupid. Not to mention his blue "detonate" doesn't actually destroy tiles so no cascades there, only from his black swap which is now too expensive to be useful.

I think the good folk at D3 just over value board shake and control. Storm isn't any good either, and she fits the mold of "board shaker".

Unknown

Punisher5784 wrote:

Punisher5784 wrote:

Now that we have a character who can easily swap two tiles, can we fix Moonstone so her tile swapping isn't random? She would be a 100x better if I could choose the two tiles I want swapped.

Attention Arondite (who decided to negative vote me):

My suggestion was not a 'buff' but a quick fix. It would not make the CPU opponent any more difficult. It would only help us if she had the ability to swap two tiles of our choice. That is how the mechanic should had been to begin with, not the randomness. This would help the 2* transitioners as there aren't many decent Pink options outside of OBW. There is nothing more annoying than having 2 different color CDs on the board, and the one that swaps is the wrong CD color.

So instead of negative voting people, how about asking for clarification. Thanks.

Just ignore Arondite, goes around like an old man/woman nagging people but never doing anything themselves. Backseat driving at its finest.

Edit: he's still stalking me, lol!

stowaway

So, ignoring the part of me who was just underwhelmed by the whole thing, I started to think, "Blue passive. Who has a good blue ability that would have you actively swapping blue? Magneto! Hey, that's Quicksilver's dad! I love it when there's thematic synergy! But wait a minute, he locks teamup tiles? Magneto does the opposite thing to teamup tiles. That's anti-synergy!" That's all. I'm just kind of annoyed at everything right now.

Arondite

raisinbman wrote:

Punisher5784 wrote:

Punisher5784 wrote:

Now that we have a character who can easily swap two tiles, can we fix Moonstone so her tile swapping isn't random? She would be a 100x better if I could choose the two tiles I want swapped.

Attention Arondite (who decided to negative vote me):

My suggestion was not a 'buff' but a quick fix. It would not make the CPU opponent any more difficult. It would only help us if she had the ability to swap two tiles of our choice. That is how the mechanic should had been to begin with, not the randomness. This would help the 2* transitioners as there aren't many decent Pink options outside of OBW. There is nothing more annoying than having 2 different color CDs on the board, and the one that swaps is the wrong CD color.

So instead of negative voting people, how about asking for clarification. Thanks.

Just ignore Arondite, goes around like an old man/woman nagging people but never doing anything themselves. Backseat driving at its finest.

Edit: he's still stalking me, lol!

Happening upon a post you made in a thread I was already following and participating in, then subsequently leaving negative reputation because it was the unsubstantiated complaint of a child is not stalking.

"lol!".

Ludaa

I'm really curious to understand how or why they post these, then nerf the stats mere hours later. What's happening in these few hours that didn't happen while they built the character?? Setting a trend of expected disappointment here, Devs. BagSilver looks really useless now with the changes. Nothing fast about him.

Collect 6+green or 7+black, make sure to match blue 4 times (maybe the A.I. helps...), hope that the A.I. doesn't go for team ups (good luck), and what do you get? Either 1653 dmg and some AP gen, or 1843 dmg and a random crit tile. Blow the passive and you have to start all over again.

Unknown

Maybe this is a spoiler for Avengers 2! Maybe Quicksilver loses his powers in the movie and spends the majority of the time moving really slow!

PuceMoose

I guess it's only fair to reserve judgement until having a chance to play a few rounds with him, but whoa, he looks bad. Maybe not Beast-bad, but close enough to share a zip code (or maybe a sad, empathetic beer in a local pub). I assume by detonate it means destroy the tile completely? Does it generate AP & damage?

dkffiv

stowaway wrote:

So, ignoring the part of me who was just underwhelmed by the whole thing, I started to think, "Blue passive. Who has a good blue ability that would have you actively swapping blue? Magneto! Hey, that's Quicksilver's dad! I love it when there's thematic synergy! But wait a minute, he locks teamup tiles? Magneto does the opposite thing to teamup tiles. That's anti-synergy!" That's all. I'm just kind of annoyed at everything right now.

I'm hoping Mags red destroys the locked tiles and is expected to be the counter to him. He sucks but I could see him being annoying in the gauntlet or simulator. 395 that does like 5k aoe due to blue matches but sucks so bad he isn't worth downing first.

dkffiv

Puce Moose wrote:

I guess it's only fair to reserve judgement until having a chance to play a few rounds with him, but whoa, he looks bad. Maybe not Beast-bad, but close enough to share a zip code (or maybe a sad, empathetic beer in a local pub). I assume by detonate it means destroy the tile completely? Does it generate AP & damage?

According to the video nomutant posted it just unlocks the tiles, no chance for cascades. Beasts green is good and his blue is mediocre (would be better if the tiles didn't suicide), his yellow sucks. Quicksilver doesn't seem to have anything good going for him, he's invis woman / bagman tier.

Kolence

stowaway wrote:

So, ignoring the part of me who was just underwhelmed by the whole thing, I started to think, "Blue passive. Who has a good blue ability that would have you actively swapping blue? Magneto! Hey, that's Quicksilver's dad! I love it when there's thematic synergy! But wait a minute, he locks teamup tiles? Magneto does the opposite thing to teamup tiles. That's anti-synergy!" That's all. I'm just kind of annoyed at everything right now.

I'm pretty much annoyed with everything too right now. Others have already commented on what's lacking in his powers and how to improve them, nothing left to add. He looked interesting and good, even great in certain favorable situations, and definitely much better in skilled human player's hands than in AI's... and then he wasn't anymore. Now, the first impression I get when looking at the powers is "Quicksilver is slow". That's just wrong and sad.

Btw, don't know if it annoys you more or not (or less?), but I checked IW's bubbles on a TU and Polarizing Force just ignored those altogether.

Unknown

So all your moves depend on the amount of locked tiles you have
1ap less per each one, that really doesnt sound quick at all

stowaway

Kolence wrote:

stowaway wrote:

So, ignoring the part of me who was just underwhelmed by the whole thing, I started to think, "Blue passive. Who has a good blue ability that would have you actively swapping blue? Magneto! Hey, that's Quicksilver's dad! I love it when there's thematic synergy! But wait a minute, he locks teamup tiles? Magneto does the opposite thing to teamup tiles. That's anti-synergy!" That's all. I'm just kind of annoyed at everything right now.

I'm pretty much annoyed with everything too right now. Others have already commented on what's lacking in his powers and how to improve them, nothing left to add. He looked interesting and good, even great in certain favorable situations, and definitely much better in skilled human player's hands than in AI's... and then he wasn't anymore. Now, the first impression I get when looking at the powers is "Quicksilver is slow". That's just wrong and sad.

Btw, don't know if it annoys you more or not (or less?), but I checked IW's bubbles on a TU and Polarizing Force just ignored those altogether.

I don't know if it annoys me more or less either. It's bad synergy either way. If Magneto's Red destroys locked tiles, then he's crippling the already crippled Quicksilver. If it doesn't, then he's doing as much as 1000 less damage, and losing out on some potential board shake. They don't have to work well together just because they're related in the comics. But there just aren't all that many reasons to swap blue in the 3* range. And since the best reason is Magneto, and Magneto is Quicksilver's dad, it would make sense for them to do something interesting together instead of work at cross purposes (even if that is often their relationship in the comics).

Unknown

Eh, Bagsilver is super disappointing now. I agree his original swapping abilities were overpowered, but now he's just boring AND slow. Only seems useful with IW to create bubbles with his blue for IW to pop.

His blue ability is still weak. I wish I had read the forums again before hitting the game; he's no longer worth a huge effort.

Nylarx

I now know why Quicksilver is so slow.

As they was releasing him, seeing all the tacos everyone had stockpiled, he decided to eat some for himself. In doing so, he put on so much weight that he can no longer go as fast as he can now. So now we are stuck with Slowsilver, and the devs are ordering more tacos to replace the ones that have been taken from us.

GrimSkald

Der_Lex wrote:

The most glaring omission here would be Peter David's fantastic original run on X-Factor in the 90's, which really fleshed out Quicksilver as a character, and gave us the iconic shrink session where Pietro explains why he has such a huge chip on his shoulder.

That was a great issue - I read it years ago at a friend's and still remember it. It was the best explanation on why Quicksilver is such a jerk. Not evil (usually,) just a jerk.