Season XIII Matchmaking - Discussion

Unknown

fmftint wrote:

Don't forget, started taking hits below 200 points. It became a blood bath as soon as you cleared seed teams

This was the main issue for me, I don't mind fighting hard teams for points but pouring water into a holey bucket is not a great model for having fun.

dr tinykittylove

Not sure what's the system for the Kamala pvp... seems to be back to normal for me so far with mixed 2*/transition/3* teams. I'm just really glad I can use my roster again though. it was hilarious when a mixed 3/2* team pulled a windstorm tu on me before I even had enough ap to fire a skill. My cstorm went HULK SMASH with 3x Raging Tempests and flattened the enemy team including a 153 BP on the spot. And I've missed being able to field my GT/Elektra/Starlord/Dino/Mororo/She-hulk Etc.

famousfoxking

Cryptobrancus wrote:

This was the main issue for me, I don't mind fighting hard teams for points but pouring water into a holey bucket is not a great model for having fun.

Yeah, exactly. The fact that I was facing harder teams, meh, oh well. The fact that I was getting murdered at 300 points or less? I usually don't buy the "sell more health packs/shields/tokens" conspiracy theories, but I was very close to believing the worst during Heavy Metal.

Unknown

I waited until after the event had finished completely to type up my thoughts on this.
Note – I have only played Heavy Metal at this point, and have not touched Kamala's pvp.

My roster – XF/Goddess maxed (ok, 269), 19 maxed 3*

Due to tracking my ISO for the last month, I also kept track of placements in pvp from the Women of Marvel event at the end of the last off season, through Heavy Metal.
Last 14 PVP event solo placements
1 – 0
5 – 9
10 – 1
25 – 3
50 – 1

For 3 out of 4 finishes below top 10 I was unshielded through the entire event. One of those events was Ragnarok's pvp, which with the boosted characters saw me come out to -143 after one fight at around 800 points, to be followed by 50+ more in losses in the next minute. So I decided to call it an event and drift down to wherever I landed. Another was BOP where I was unshielded to the end, was 9th and hit for -36 in the last 30 seconds and dropped to 12th. C'est la vie. But usually if I try, I do quite well.

A typical event would see a climb to 6-700, sitting unshielded, fighting the occasional fight to stay at roughly the same points. Then a push to 900+, often to 1000 before shielding. I would typically use either a 3 hour shield for the event, or an 8-3 combination. Very rarely I'll go 3-8-3. Even with a terrible finish in Ragnarok's event, I averaged over 1000 per PVP in Season XII

In Heavy Metal, I used an 8, a 3, and a 24. I have never used a 24 in 400 days of game play. I attribute some of this to the new MMR, some of it to the rewards, and some of it to me not having play time and joining about 8 hours from the end. I ultimately finished top 5, but it was crazy in my bracket. I climbed to exactly 800 before shielding, then got a +15 defensive victory. Did a hop later winning 2, and wiping on a third, shielding in the 850s. Did a second hop of two quick fights, got to 922, shielded. Minutes later I took a -42 while shielded. That notification came with a bounce, so I know the shield was up in time. A +12 defensive win helped as bounces continued to trickle in, but still had to break at the last minute to keep top 5.

Feelsbadman

Yes, the old MMR was exploitable to a degree. I have certainly tanked in the past. In some instances, to some crazy levels. I left out tank teams a couple of times during season XII and got knocked down to where at one point, I saw a team in SHIELD Sim who had 1 character to fight against. A level 32 IM-35. Last time I saw something like that was Bad Is Good (before it got tweaked and renamed Nefarious Foes), which locked out non Dark Avengers characters, so many people ran just an Ares because that was all they had.

Here is the problem I have with the new MMR. We are all theoretically competing for the same rewards.

So do I think it's fair that 270s can find and crush 1 and 2* players? Yes, I do. If it's supposed to be a free for all PVP, then everyone should be able to attack everyone else.

Do I think it's good for the game? Not entirely. At least not to the level that some (myself definitely included) were able to before. To some degree the game already accounts for that. I believe what we've seen (either directly from devs, or spaded out by the community) is that prior to about 90 days or so, you are kept separate from the big kids. Separate brackets, separate MMR – the big mean 270s can't really find you and take your juice money. After that, you fight it out with everyone else, and whomever can accumulate the most points, wins the new car.

A common argument I have seen in regards to 2* being hit by 3 and 4* rosters goes like this:
High school sports teams don't have to play against NFL/NBA/MLB/NHL/etc teams so 2* teams shouldn't have to compete against 3/4* teams.

That's correct. They also do not get the same rewards for their play.

Your reward if you're an excellent high school athlete? Maybe your coach takes you out for ice cream. Maybe you get some high fives. You might get your face in the local paper.

You probably don't get a multi-million dollar contract for the following season, national news coverage, and big endorsement deals. The competition is harder, but the rewards are greater. That is not the case here.

I think a better way to look at it instead of high school versus professional, is to think of the Olympics.
Each country gets to send their absolute best. The big powerhouse countries aren't competing for different medals from the smaller nations who only sent 4 athletes this year. No one is getting a head start or modifications because they come from a smaller country. They're not getting a gold medal for being 1st place out of countries with under 15 million people.
It's open competition, may the best players/teams win.

As I have said previously, if everyone is competing in the same brackets for the same prizes, then everyone should be able to see and attack each other. The more powerful teams are going to rise to the top, the smaller weaker teams are going to settle near the bottom. That is fair. Again, it may not be best for the game, and for 1-2* player retention, but it's fair.

As for the new MMR itself – quite frankly it's terrible. My experience was the same as most everyone else who would get qualified as a vet. Clear the seed teams, nothing(*) but maxed 3 and 4* teams the rest of the way. I used X-Force for every fight, changing up the pairings with Hood, Fist, Goddess. I guess those 4 characters constitute my roster diversity.

(*) I did see a single 2* team right when I crossed 600, but that was it. I can't imagine that there was only a single 2* player in all of slice 4 and that every other person playing in slice 4 had maxed rosters. Why couldn't I see and fight any of those other players?

So how do we get something that is both fair and good for player retention? Something that encourages players to develop their rosters? I'm not entirely sure, but I don't think this is it.

I'm up in the air about whether to keep playing or not. I'm giving it through the end of Kamala to see if changes are made, but between this and being told no more 2-in-a-row releases and getting Kamala and then Kingpin, the game feels like work instead of fun.

By the by, I'm not opposed to 2 or 3 or 4 in a row releases… I'm at the point where even though the roster slots are expensive, they're not preventing me from playing. I'm opposed to doing it for characters that won't be useful or playable for ages. It irks me feeling like I have to grind just to end up with an unplayable character afterward. I'd love to see something like the first time you recruit a new character, if they are not already on your roster, the initial cover gives 1/1/1. After that any additional covers only give their color, and if the character is already on your roster and you recruit a double, it only gives the single color as well. That would keep the incentive to play for multiple covers in top 1/5/10/20 placements, but not make the people who still grind a lot, just to get a single cover, feel like they've wasted their time. Having the base be a 1/1/1 character where you can at least test out all of the new skills, seems like a very good thing to me.

simonsez

j12601 wrote:

I think a better way to look at it instead of high school versus professional, is to think of the Olympics. Each country gets to send their absolute best. The big powerhouse countries aren't competing for different medals from the smaller nations who only sent 4 athletes this year. No one is getting a head start or modifications because they come from a smaller country. They're not getting a gold medal for being 1st place out of countries with under 15 million people.
It's open competition, may the best players/teams win.

I love this analogy; it's perfect. Transitioners are like the jamaican bobsled team, except without the charm, charisma, and upbeat attitude.

Unknown

If the Olympics allowed countries to use performance enhancing drugs proportional to the amount of medals that country previously won it would lack even more credibility

(1972 basketball never forget)

Arimis_Thorn

I need more data to vote. The Iron Man event seemed tougher, but the Kamala seems easier. So I'm reserving judgment for the time being.

roberts_2

Teenage Riot works as usual for me; Simulator is still hardest.

Unknown

gamar wrote:

If the Olympics allowed countries to use performance enhancing drugs proportional to the amount of medals that country previously won it would lack even more credibility

What? Are you referring to boosts here? Boosts are equally usable by everyone.

Unknown

Lerysh wrote:

gamar wrote:

If the Olympics allowed countries to use performance enhancing drugs proportional to the amount of medals that country previously won it would lack even more credibility

What? Are you referring to boosts here? Boosts are equally usable by everyone.

I'm referring to how awards (covers,HP,iso) directly impact your later performance, making the comparison to sports events absurd

You aren't winning "MPQ little league" because you're a better baseball player. You're winning because MPQ pays you in steroids for the games you win

Dauthi

IGN - Dauthi
Team - 250 Thor/Xforce + maxed IM40.

I don't understand everyone's horror stories, it went great for me:

Started playing the last time slice 12ish hours before the end of the event. My queue of teams was marginally harder, I used that team however and regened enough health packs to play until 880ish, in which I had to buy one. I only seen about 5 attacks from 700 to 900, three for about 15 and 2 for about 30.

Hit 920 points and shielded not wanting to press my luck. Had no retaliations, so wondered if I could have pressed further. A victory an hour later pushed me to 935. Waited about 4 hours (lots of random attacks across that span of time) and shield hopped to 1000ish. Typically its about 50/50 if I get hit during a shield hop, however I had no attacks. Third shield hop to 1070ish no attacks. Fourth shield hop no attacks. Usually I at least get a few attacks right after shielding, but I had nothing. This is the first time I have had 1100+ because I usually get dinged during hops. I would probably attribute this mostly to the nerf to +ap buffs.

Here is how I believe the system works though, I think some people have weird interpretations that low level rosters can get crazy points:

One star rosters are kept in check by 2* rosters, so if any of them get too high they become easy game for any 2*s. These 2*s then are attacked by 3*s, keeping their points in check too. Since 4*s are no longer using 2*s to jump off of, 3*s AND 2*s should see more and for better points. Finally, 3*s are kept in check by 4*s, who are at the top of the food chain. So, unless I am missing something here (if so correct me), how are 2*s getting the same prizes as higher tier players?

If 2*s are getting amazing points, they will be great targets for 3*s, who in turn will be great 4* targets.

Here are some reasons why I believe people are having issues:

Tanking is gone. I think more players tanked still than people realize. This means 4*s and 3*s can no longer bounce off the heads of lowbies. I haven't tanked in about 4 months or so, so may see two or three 2* rosters in my trek from 0 to 300, but I have not seen a 1* since I stopped. Why did I stop? Because not tanking gave me harder opponents (3* transitionals) from the start, which was much more likely to give me better points. As a 4*, beating up those compared to 2* rosters is pretty trivial. That's why I believe this system had little effect on me.

3*s+ are used to being untouched on their way up until 600ish. This just won't be true anymore since the pool of characters that can be attacked has been slimmed down. But who feels this now then? It used to be 2*s and below, but since 4*s can only see 3*s, they are being used for points early on. You can't go to bed at 500 points, you will be attacked unless you are perhaps a 4* at the top of the food chain, but even then it's not guaranteed.

The burden of the 2*/1*s was transferred across us all, but most of it onto 3*/3* transitional rosters. This makes sense as all of the burden should not be put on the blossoming new player base, likely scaring them away, it should also be shared partially by veterans. Any veteran should appreciate attracting new players, else the game dies and we all lose.

Unknown

gamar wrote:

Lerysh wrote:

gamar wrote:

If the Olympics allowed countries to use performance enhancing drugs proportional to the amount of medals that country previously won it would lack even more credibility

What? Are you referring to boosts here? Boosts are equally usable by everyone.

I'm referring to how awards (covers,HP,iso) directly impact your later performance, making the comparison to sports events absurd

You aren't winning "MPQ little league" because you're a better baseball player. You're winning because MPQ pays you in steroids for the games you win

Ah. That makes sense as an analogy, kinda. I don't really see it as "performance enhancing covers" really, especially if having roster strength makes it actually harder to place. It's more like physical training. A college player isn't ready to perform at the MLB level, that's why they have minor leagues in the first place. If your "Roster" is an athlete, then events are like training sessions and rewards are like results from those training sessions. You learn to play well you place well you can place well in the future.

Unknown

Lerysh wrote:

gamar wrote:

Lerysh wrote:

gamar wrote:

If the Olympics allowed countries to use performance enhancing drugs proportional to the amount of medals that country previously won it would lack even more credibility

What? Are you referring to boosts here? Boosts are equally usable by everyone.

I'm referring to how awards (covers,HP,iso) directly impact your later performance, making the comparison to sports events absurd

You aren't winning "MPQ little league" because you're a better baseball player. You're winning because MPQ pays you in steroids for the games you win

Ah. That makes sense as an analogy, kinda. I don't really see it as "performance enhancing covers" really, especially if having roster strength makes it actually harder to place. It's more like physical training. A college player isn't ready to perform at the MLB level, that's why they have minor leagues in the first place. If your "Roster" is an athlete, then events are like training sessions and rewards are like results from those training sessions. You learn to play well you place well you can place well in the future.

Yeah, so now teams get steroids but are only allowed to play other teams on steroids until the finals, also training doesn't give you any muscles unless you're in the top 10% of people training...

If those seem like ridiculous league rules, that's because they are, d3p

fmftint

Only putting in 12 hours kind of invalidates your review of the event

GothicKratos

fmftint wrote:

Only putting in 12 hours kind of invalidates your review of the event

You're kidding, right? I'm not going to even touch the ideal of the twelve hour figure not being enough, but the sentiment that because he plays different than you, his opinion is invaluable? Step off your pedestal. Honestly.

[Edit] Just a little note for simonez; the word in the quote is not "invaluable", it's "invalidates", meaning it is invalidated, meaning it is null and void. Love you cutie!

Raffoon

If high level teams like having low level teams to climb on, but low level teams don't like getting stomped on by the high level teams on their way up, then......

Why not just add in some more seed teams throughout the event so that you can beat up low level teams on the way up without crushing the souls of the low level teams that have players behind them?

Edit: That is, as an alternative to a system that makes you fight equal level teams the whole way up.

mjh

was there seriously no communication from D3 or anybody in red about this fiasco that happened over the long weekend? Look at how many players are upset about this MMR change (I know it seems fixed now but still), the least they can do is comment. Am I missing it somewhere?

tanis3303

My experience in Teenage Riot has been far different and more enjoyable. I didn't see any 2* teams, so I was fighting 3*s of varying levels and a few not quite maxed Xforce's and Thor's all the way up to 800. Not a cakewalk by any means, and some of those teams could easily take me on in their retal nodes if they're willing to try (seriously, if you took a hit from me, go for it. Thor isn't that tough, just kill Xforce first and you'll be fine...I'm probably worth more than the retal node says I am now too!)

Most importantly, I didn't feel like I was treading water in a shark tank in this one. I climbed to 300 this morning, held those points till lunch time, climbed to just over 500 then and only took one attack, then went up to 800 when I got home from work and threw up my first shield. As a 1 year+ vet, this seems about right for me. If I want that 1k prog, it would probably take me 2, maybe 3 more hops, costing me around 450 total HP in shields, which is about where I was before the change. If this was how the new mmr was supposed to shake out, I'm all for it. As many (myself included) have stated, it's not the fair fights we have an issue with, it's the fact that you can't really get anywhere when each fight for 22 has you returning to -40. Us vets have already been there, done that, and we didn't even get a friggin t-shirt!

GothicKratos

mjh wrote:

was there seriously no communication from D3 or anybody in red about this fiasco that happened over the long weekend? Look at how many players are upset about this MMR change, the least they can do is comment. Am I missing it somewhere?

They're not in the office over the weekend.

mjh

GothicKratos wrote:

mjh wrote:

was there seriously no communication from D3 or anybody in red about this fiasco that happened over the long weekend? Look at how many players are upset about this MMR change, the least they can do is comment. Am I missing it somewhere?

They're not in the office over the weekend.

what weekend? today is Monday and Monday is almost over