**** Kingpin (Wilson Fisk) **** Updated (8/22/17)

Jaedenkaal

himatako said:

sinnerjfl said:

Please don't implement any of these changes, they are terrible.

I understand that not being able to fire his black power without at least 1 CD tile sounds pretty bad, but shorter duration and increasing in damage for his yellow aren't exactly terrible imo. 

Yeah the changes to Maggia Pawns are all (minor) buffs. He's just perma-3/5/5, I guess.

sinnerjfl

himatako said:

I understand that not being able to fire his black power without at least 1 CD tile sounds pretty bad, but shorter duration and increasing in damage for his yellow aren't exactly terrible imo. 

If I have to pick, leave him as he is, he's a 1000x better off right now than these very much not-needed changes.

Like others have said, it seems more like a change for him to be more annoying when we fight him in PVE than a change for the players.

An AOE requiring 18 AP and removing 3 CD tiles should do a lot more damage than 4000...    And you forget that if you have 3+ CD tiles, you can't pop a single CD anymore multiple times to inflict more damage on a single char. I don't want this AOE ****, it's just awful damage and very much an hindrance now.

Kingpin is already not so good these days because he's an older char and power creep, this will put him in the very bottom tier now.

hopper1979

I just tried him out I wanted to reserve judgement because I thought the AOE might, in application be better than people were saying.  It was a very tight match and I had one opponent left on the board but too many countdowns on the board.  If I destroyed 3 countdowns I run the risk of loosing the next round but with the change to his black I now do less damage to the opponent and cannot finish him off.  Now I realize this AOE has introduced a new strategy into the character but it not logical from the stand point of the game in its current meta which is speed and countdowns.  

You need 20 ap for the aoe to be fired on a team where he is the only countdown generator but by the time you collect that much you should have 1 if not 2 opponents down, and now you struggle to clear the last character due to the fact the aoe does significantly less damage than the previous attack.  So now once you can afford to put down his countdowns you don't want to.  He has become even more niche now than he was because you need him with a team that generates countdowns quickly but does not have a better black power, I guess Starlord is an obvious pair, Colson might work but Carrol does not, I am not bring Loki or Sentry into a pvp match just to do a 4000 point aoe.  

There is an obvious fix do what they did with Ironheart, if only one opponent is left have it do significantly more damage, this would justify the 2ap cost increase as well.  I have not given up hope but this one is not looking like a particularly good "fix".  Not an epic fail like Carnage but definitely the worst update to a character since Vision.

Tiger_Wong

sinnerjfl said:

himatako said:

I understand that not being able to fire his black power without at least 1 CD tile sounds pretty bad, but shorter duration and increasing in damage for his yellow aren't exactly terrible 

An AOE requiring 18 AP

See, this is what I don't get. Are you planning on using him by himself or something? I'm gonna use him on a team that generates CDs automatically, of which there are quite a few. 

idk why people whine about a character's powers as if they're in a one-on-one match. It's 3on3. You find teams and other characters that he can fit in. You're saying "18AP" as if he's the only character on your team that's gonna be making CDs. And if he is.... well frankly, that's just **** team composition and you're a bad team builder. 

sinnerjfl

Tiger Wong said:

See, this is what I don't get. Are you planning on using him by himself or something? I'm gonna use him on a team that generates CDs automatically, of which there are quite a few. 

idk why people whine about a character's powers as if they're in a one-on-one match. It's 3on3. You find teams and other characters that he can fit in. You're saying "18AP" as if he's the only character on your team that's gonna be making CDs. And if he is.... well frankly, that's just tinykitty team composition and you're a bad team builder. 

Wow that's a lot of assumptions there buddy.

His powers made sense before and had good synergy. Now they don't anymore and not triggering the tinykitty AOE is actually a problem, it's not logical, he's working against himself now.

It's not that crazy to want a character where his 3 powers work with one another and don't actively hinder one of them.

Jaedenkaal

Tiger Wong said:

sinnerjfl said:

himatako said:

I understand that not being able to fire his black power without at least 1 CD tile sounds pretty bad, but shorter duration and increasing in damage for his yellow aren't exactly terrible 

An AOE requiring 18 AP

See, this is what I don't get. Are you planning on using him by himself or something? I'm gonna use him on a team that generates CDs automatically, of which there are quite a few. 

idk why people whine about a character's powers as if they're in a one-on-one match. It's 3on3. You find teams and other characters that he can fit in. You're saying "18AP" as if he's the only character on your team that's gonna be making CDs. And if he is.... well frankly, that's just tinykitty team composition and you're a bad team builder. 

But those other CD-generating powers also cost AP; perhaps not if you're only looking for the single, but to get 3 other CDs out there you need to spend AP, or give up some benefit that those CDs would have otherwise provided (even Star-Lords "free" CDs give you 3 AP each, so using them with WG for the team damage still "costs" 17 AP)

What you really want are characters who make countdown tiles, without spending Black AP, that you actually want to get rid of. 

Single Countdown: 

Agent Coulson - Super Secret Tech: free when you fire another power. This might actually be a reasonable way to get the single target version running, especially if you leave SST at 3 ranks. Still a nonbo with the call the cavalry passive, and you can't choose which tiles Kingpin removes (at least, unless they changed it)
Ant-Man - Small-Time Crooks: 9 AP. Reasonable if you stole some tiles with it and it's about to end. Otherwise you spent 17 AP for 6300 damage. 
Captain Marvel - Photonic Barrage: 8 Black AP. I'm going to assume we will never be this desperate.
Cloak & Dagger - The Darkness Hungers: 8 Black AP. I suspect this team has too much color overlap for this to be a good idea, even if this was a good combo, which it isn't.
Cyclops - Uncanny Strategist: 5 AP. As with STC above, this works out ok if it's about to expire and you got some use out of it anyways. You can also fire this a bunch of times and then remove 3 of them, but that's 23 AP.
Deadpool - X-Enforcer: Free. If you can concoct a plan to keep one of these around on your turn, you should probably just use Red Hulk instead; these tiles are actually pretty good.
Gamora - Deadly Strike: 10 AP The tile from this isn't that great, so it's a decent candidate for the Gambit. Still, Deadly Strike's damage by itself isn't too great and I'm not sure this "combo" redeems it.
Ice Man - Uncanny Snowman: 6 AP. I'd rather pay 6 more Blue and do nearly 8000 damage instead of 8 Black to do 6300, although, if you'd rather save your blue for more stuns, this is one way to do it, I guess.
Kate Bishop  - Ruthless Precision: 12 AP. Sure. That CD probably wasn't going to do anything anyways. Too bad Kate already has a black ability that does better damage...
Kate Bishop  - Looking For Trouble: 8 Black AP. The combo that no one was asking for. I guess it's pretty good if you have 16 Black AP.
Kate Bishop  - Because... Boomerangs: 10 AP. Well, at least you get to keep some pretty good Strike tiles. You're only getting a modest amount of extra damage, though.
Medusa - Entanglement: Free, and she'll make one every turn if there isn't one. Doesn't trigger the attack tiles, and you're giving up one turn of entanglement damage, which is nominal.
Mockingbird - Bombshell: 9 AP. Technically you'll still getting most of the (pretty darn good) damage, at the cost of some self damage. This could work, I guess.
Mr. Fantastic - Imaginaut: 7 Black AP. Well... sure Imaginaut isn't a great tile, but this just sounds like a bad plan.
Nick Fury - Escape Plan: 12 AP. Somehow, this is an even more desperate plan than Gamora's red.
Red Hulk - Seeing Red: Free. If you can somehow get one (or three!) of these tiles to stick around until you can take actions, this is probably one of the better choices. 
Rocket & Groot - Don't Push This Button: 10 AP. Why the heck wouldn't you just let this resolve?
Spider-Woman - Seeking Redemption: 8 Black AP. 16 black AP seems steep, to me, especially if you also want to get some use out of Seeking Redemption.
Totally Awesome Hulk - See The Math of It: Free. Low impact tile, decent way to get the single target Gambit.
Vulture - One Fell Swoop: 9 AP: If you spend 8 black AP firing Gambit when you have this tile out, instead of Circling Prey, you will be banned from this forum. 
War Machine - Aerial Assault: 9 AP - One more in the pile of "ok fine, but only if they're about to expire"
Wasp - That Buzzing Sound: Free. Well, technically 2 AP, assuming the enemy had that much of that color. One of the better options.
Winter Soldier - Detonator: 10 AP. Wait! Fisk! That's the only detonator I have! Ok, if the AI gets (un)lucky and matches all the trap tiles you can Gambit away the detonator for a little extra value.
Winter Soldier - Moving Target: 12 AP. You're that guy who already used Wilson's Gambit on Photonic Barrage, aren't you?
Wolverine - Recovery: 9 AP, no way to gain anything from it before you remove it. Probably not worth it.
Yondu - Yaka Parachute: Free, unpredictable, and if you're getting them, Yondu is dying.

Multiple Countdowns:
Agent Coulson - Call the Cavalry: 12 AP. Congrats, you found an ability even worse than Maggia Pawns to use. It's more expensive, and removing the CDs means Coulson gives you no AP, which was the only reason why this power was any good.
Ant-Man - Ants! Ants! Ants!: 7 AP. CDs aren't great individually, so this might be worth it. Now the AoE "combo" is only 15 AP. Use when they're all about to expire to get a bit more damage.
Deadpool - Countdown for What?: 7 AP - Cheaper, but you're losing out on the CfW? damage, which isn't small. Again, best used just before they expire on their own.
Peggy Carter - Do As Peggy Says: 11 AP. 19 AP to stun 2/3 of the enemy team and deal modest aoe damage. For comparison, for 18 green AP, Sandman can do better (better damage, anyways; only 2-turn stuns, I suppose) 
Star-Lord - Sleight of Hand: 10 AP. 2-3 CDs, which would have done team damage on their own. Bleh
Star-Lord - Everyone With Me: Free, but your opponent has to fire a lot of powers. You're giving up 3 random AP each, plus giving up the power cost reduction (which doesn't even affect WG) if you remove the last one.
War Machine - Gatling Gun: 8 AP. Hey look, full rainbow! Need 5 ranks in GG to get the three tiles, and while they're not great, they do some damage, which you lose out on.

Edit: Removed Rockets Pack and Hellfire, as they'll likely be invalid targets once they become Repeater tiles. Also, missed Spider-Woman somehow.

Tiger_Wong

They do work. They work fine. Not triggering the AOE should mean nothing as it's just extra damage. It's an option if you want to save up for it. If there aren't enough CDs out there, no probleml. You just take the damage to one. Which (btw) is more damage then you were doing before. 

DrDevilDinosaur

Going to suggest another change to his Black for next season when they revisit him:

The ability reduces the timer on up to three countdown tiles (targeting both friendly and enemy). For each countdown tile which is not resolved, deal (X) damage to a random enemy character.

This allows KP to gain the benefit of his own CD tiles, and deal damage as well. Particularly powerful if it accelerates one of his tiles down to 1 turn, so that they still contribute damage and then resolve on the next turn. Still retains some of the flavour of being a gambit, since it could potentially accelerate an enemy countdown. However, the ability to deal damage for each countdown on the field would help position KP as a kind of soft counter for Carol/Coulson and friends.

Phaserhawk

This is as bad as the Carnage fix. KP was seriously hindered when green goblin came out and they changed his black to remove instead of destroy. He was great with 4pool now he's so much worse than ever!!  Leave black alone and just give it a dmg boost to make up for the 4pool nerf. Although the yellow buff is good I'd rather not for the **** that is black now. Or keep all changes but bring black back to 6

hopper1979

The more I play him the worse the black plays.  Thanks Jaedenkaal for the nice summary of countdown spammers above and I agree with your general point the cost is not equal to the benefits of the attack.  

Black used to be a great low cost damage attack with minimal penalty, 1 countdown tile and if you were on a good spamming team the odds of destroying a good tile was minimal.  Now, by the time you get rolling and might consider hitting with an aoe you have wasted the cost of your countdown tiles to do only 4000 damage and it is even worse if you have only one or two opponents left in the game (most teams will spend loose 12-20 ap through ap loss or cost).  How many teams get out countdowns quickly enough for his aoe to be worth it, we are talking about a select few Loki (first turn if you allow the opponent to get a match 4) and the Colson/Hawkeye combo can really get rolling by turn 2 but do you really want to be removing their countdowns and screw up their synergy, a starlord team will take a least 3 turns and more realistically 5-6 to get going and that is in pve not pvp.  The aoe is only cost efficient (debatable still) if the entire team is present.  I could deal with the 8 ap for 8k damage and 1 countdown but it really hamstrings the teams especially mid to late match.  

The black need to be rethought I have seen some very good ideas above.  Hopefully we will see a relatively quick fix like we did with Carnage he is too niche now.  

Jaedenkaal

For completeness, here's a list of 3*s that make countdown tiles:
(I have excluded Black Panther, Blade, Human Torch, and Punisher since Repeater tiles are unlikely to be valid targets)

Single Countdown: 

Beast - Mutagenic Breakthrough: 6 AP. Cheap enough (although still 14 AP total), but you're giving up the entire benefit of the tile, as well as hindering Beast's internal synergy.
Colossus - Immovable Object: 8 AP. As with a number of 4* tiles, you can get some extra benefit out of this if you Gambit it away the turn before it would expire anyways.
Deadpool - Life of the Party: Free. If you can somehow keep this around by the time you can take actions, this would be a good use of Gambit, I think.
Doctor Strange - Crimson Bands: 9 AP. The per-turn damage of Crimon Bands is pretty high, so this probably isn't a good deal until (per usual) you wait until the turn before it would expire, and then use Gambit to down someone.
Daredevil - Billy Club: 9 AP. In addition to the hilarious narrative this combo invokes, this might actually work out. Chain-stun the target until they're within Gambit range, and then kill them. Repeat.
Elektra - Crippling Blow: 9 AP. The per-turn damage from this tile is pretty low, so you can get some decent value if you (wait for it) use Gambit with 1 turn to go.
Hawkeye - Because... Boomerangs: 10 AP. As with Kate in 4* land, I'd probably rather just have the damage from the tile, and the Strike tile consolation prize isn't even as good.
Hawkeye - Full Quiver: 5 AP. I can see using Gambit to remove some of the less exciting arrows (Electric, Ant-Man, Smoke Bomb). They'd have to be the only arrows on the board, though, or you risk losing a good one.
Falcon - Redwing: Free. Finally, a tile we want to get rid of.
Luke Cage - Jab, Jab, Cross: 6 Black AP. Wouldn't you just fire JJC again?
Mystique - Shapeshift: 8 AP. Sadly, Masterstroke is potentially better damage per AP than Gambit in this combo.
Psylocke - Bewilder: 10 AP. Removing the Bewilder tile to fire Gambit is definitely better than letting it resolve, but that's no excuse for using Psylocke at all.
Rocket & Groot - I Got a Plan: 11 AP. Same problems as Beast, except more so.
Scarlet Witch - Arcane Incantation: Free. Well... she makes one for free every time, so, I guess you could do worse. And i guess you could remove it if it gets stuck in a corner. Most of the time you probably want the Purple AP and cascade potential, though.
Steve Rogers - Star-Spangled Avenger: 11 AP. This seems like a bad deal, since you're giving away 10 Red AP.
Steve Rogers - Peacemaker: 12 AP. This also seems like a bad deal, since you're giving away 10 Blue AP and a large Protect tile.
Thanos - Infinite Power: 8 AP. Another in a long line of use it (just) before you lose it.
Thanos - Come And Get Me: 12 AP. Corner case where you use Gambit to down an opponent that wouldn't have died to CaGM, triggering Court Death?
The Hulk - Anger: Free. As with Deadpool, if you can somehow keep this around by the time you can take actions, go for it.
Vision - Density:Heavy: 5 AP. Same as Colossus, I guess, except cheaper.
Vision - Density:Light: 5 AP. Sensing a pattern here. (Heavy is probably better, like always)

Multiple Countdowns:

Hawkeye - Full Quiver: 5 AP. I guess this is a possible thing, but I'd feel pretty cheated unless it specifically removed the Electric, Sonic, and Ant-Man arrows, and that's STILL 23 AP.
Iron Man - Recharge: 6 AP. Hah. Ahaha. Ahahaha. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAH. Next.
Loki - Mischief: Free. Except not quite; you're still giving up the up-to-6 AP that those tiles would have stolen for you. Also, it's nearly impossible to use this for the (better) single-target Gambit, and you're relying on your opponent to make a match-4 while you already have 8 Black AP.
Sentry - World Rupture: 12 AP. Pros: Individual WR tiles are nearly worthless, and he makes so many and they last long enough that you might actually get two AoE Gambits on a single cast of WR. Cons: You put Sentry on your team. (Can this be a team-up? That might be a thing)
Squirrel Girl - Furry Friends: 11 AP. Even funnier narrative than using Daredevil. Trouble is, Furry Friends does nearly as much (boosted) damage per tile as an AoE Gambit per enemy, so the opportunity cost here is really high

Dunamis101

I think Kingpin 535, Ghost 553, Medusa 553 is pretty good.

Entanglement matches give Medusa 2 attack tiles, and attack tile matches give you heals. This also gives you a constant countdown tile for single target damage.

Medusa's attack tiles make Ghosts green cheaper as does his own red. 

This doesn't make the ultimate Kingpin team but it isn't bad, I also think Peggy (535) is pretty good in Ghosts place and Hulkbuster (535).

With HB it won't be a full rainbow but his blue will help get rid of green which is the color you don't have as a full rainbow with that team.

I still think Kingpins damage on his black should be a little better and his black should return to 6ap so that singular damage happens more often.

If I have to spend 18ap and get rid of 3 of my countdown tiles it should do more team damage.

atomzed

the changes to KP is a huge nerf. the dmg nerf to black is a joke, and needing 3 TU for team AOE? sheesh. 

i dont know why they nerf him. he was a solid mid tier at best

Anon

D3 please take a second look at Kingpin like you did with Carnage. He's terrible now.

himatako

Seconded that the new update is really bad. Apart from the level that required you to use him, I used Ghost Rider to beat all the levels in System Reboot event. 

IMO, His cheap black was his signature move and this update has ruined that. To me, now he's nothing but a good yellow battery for C4ge  

Dunamis101

Lets be honest as well, he doesn't team well with most characters. I would say medusa is one of his best partners if not his best partner in 4 star land especially with Medusa's free countdown tiles. Other than that you need a green/blue/red user, and war machine is terrible. Riri is okay.. I guess.

I would go with winter soldier if his red wasn't so bad, unreliable, and expensive. The only reasonable 3rd characters I can see that would be beneficial would be Peggy 535, Hulkbuster 535, Iceman 553.
You will be missing a color either way. Rocket & Groot seems okay but expensive.

Dunamis101

Kingpin, Carnage, Medusa is pretty nasty, besides health packs and a lack of blue.

You get a lot of heals, ap generation, and Carnage gets extra damage from Kingpins CD tiles by using his Green to destroy the board. Lots of cascades and matches.

Purple and green ap generation from Medusa for Fisk defence and Carnage rules abilities is pretty good too 

As far as Kingpin/Medusa shells the following are good ones I have tried out fully maxed.

Kingpin 535, HB 535, Medusa 553
Kingpin 535, Carnage 535, Medusa 553
Kingpin 535, Peggy 535, Medusa 553
Kingpin 535, Iceman 553, Medusa 553

Although with Iceman I would rather do 8000 damage with Ice's 12ap instead of using 14ap.

(8 black ap fron Kingpin and 6 blue ap from Ice to do only 6351 damage.)

The problem I find with starlord is that the enemy has to fire a power for his passive to work. Great against goons but not for pve.

bluewolf

Today I was playing Strange Sights and realized:  Kingpin's changes feel like a nerf (or at best, no improvement) to me when playing.  But a buff for the AI, where he is often paired with goons spamming out CD's (Dons, etc).  AOE all over the place.  

Jaedenkaal

bluewolf said:

Today I was playing Strange Sights and realized:  Kingpin's changes feel like a nerf (or at best, no improvement) to me when playing.  But a buff for the AI, where he is often paired with goons spamming out CD's (Dons, etc).  AOE all over the place.  

Yep. Saw that coming. The Dons even generate (and steal) Black AP for him.

Dunamis101

If we're gonna keep his black at 8ap it should do 7000+ for single target damage and 5500 for AOE imo.